Disc brakes on road bikes...

[Fenceline]

All of the comments about interchangeability in the professional peloton seem reasonable, and may well cause problems during a race.
I have sympathy for the tiny minority of cyclists this may effect.
The majority do not race or compete where there is no service provided.
What seems to be ignored is the fact that rim brakes have large variations in their effectiveness depending on the amount of moisture present at the time of application.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

Not my point, my point about neutral wheels and which type axle each team, bike has. But even now, some hubs/wheels cannot be converted and if they can, may not have the 'system' your frame has.

I can see it now, neutral support car audio...Spinachi has a flat!!!..ok..rotor size? axle type? Thru or QR? 130, 135, 142, 146?? Front or rear...9mm, QR? 10mm......then they 'slap' the wheel on(don't compress the lever!!!)(or don't have that 160mm, 142mm thruaxle wheel)...and the rider rides away hearing that squeak, squeak, squeak, or rotor to caliper rub....BIKE TOSS!!

Caliper placement has a huge impact..whether it be seat stay or chainstay mount..and whether or not the caliper hits the rotor, which aren't standardized either, neither diameter nor width.

It'll happen, the designers will whine, the bean counters will be giving each other high fives. AND you will buy a frame, with a some sort of axle/thru axle frame or fork..then when the wheelmaker/frame maker goes to a different 'standard', and support yours no more..you'll throw the frame/fork away because of an axle(or BB)..well, these asian plastic things are throw away anyway.

WHOGAS-just fun to watch..I don't have to

-use 'em
-sell 'em
-work on 'em...

I don't know why you think they are going to suddenly introduce a myriad axle lengths when most of the longer ones would be absolutely pointless on a road bike. The rear axle will remain the same, the front axle will likely go to 10-15mm thru-axle as they are just as fast, if not faster, than QRs to change wheels and will work much better with discs (although QR works fine). Sealed cartridge bearing front wheel with end caps means you would have interchangeable wheels anyway, but it's pretty much certain there will be one size agreed. As I pointed out, you don't get that myriad of axle sizes already, so why do it now? The UCI regulate pretty much everything to do with bikes that could impact a race, why are you assuming that'll suddenly change on a very obvious issue?

It takes several pulls on a lever to advance the pads past the point where you can't get the wheel in, that's a massively unlikely scenario and why would you grab the lever anyway? Your hands should be no where near them when changing a wheel, even with rim brakes.

Caliper placement does not have a huge impact because they are spaced for a specific diameter rotor that is in a fixed position on the hub. It doesn't matter where the caliper is, if it takes one 140mm rotor it'll take all of them.


Throw them away? I have mates who still ride 40 year old frames with period correct parts and they find replacements easily enough. I'm riding a 26" wheeled MTB and I doubt I'll ever struggle to get bits for it. If people are throwing away perfectly good bikes that speaks more to their attitude than the usability of the bike.



Honestly though, if it all goes end up it's going to make little difference to most of us. I can run rim brakes fine, but I'd have discs on my next bike if the prices (and standards ) are kept sensible.

Put 2 bikes next to each other...different frames but identical disc brakes..same rotor size and everything...the wheels 'may' swap back and forth, but in my bike shop experience, most of the time you have to readjust, align the caliper to keep it from rubbing.

Yes, the almighty UCI will mandate 'standards' for disc brakes, as in axle, rotor size but it's still going to be clown central. As for compress lever...seen any 'pros', waiting for a wheel, wheel in their hand and bike on the ground? Lever pushed in? It doesn't take much to push pads so far all the fluid leaks out..new bike!!

I ride 5 bikes, with Deltas thru DP and gee, just don't see it. BUT the marketeers will be a grinnin', bike shops will be making $ to set up, bleed, bleed again, set up again..with drawers pull of hoses, fittings, pads...

So that 50 something can ride their carbon disc brake wonder on that dry day, 20 mile ride on the flats.. Well I see WRX's at the grocery parking lot too.

 

[frenchfry]

Over time we have seen lots of innovations. This is basically a good thing. Some of the innovations are useful and stick around like automatic pedals), others fall by the wayside as they don't add real improvements to the cycling experience (can't think of any examples because they came and went but see link for images).

http://www.google.fr/search?q=crazy+bik ... QsAQ&dpr=1

I am guessing that disc brakes on road bikes fall into the latter category. There appear to be more disadvantages than advantages and from what I see they will complicate things unnecessarily. In the same way, I don't expect to see electronic shifting become standard equipment, although it will probably remain for those who want it.

The downside to innovation is that I used to strip my bikes down regularily to the bearings, now everything has changed so much and the tools are all specific that I no longer can do this.

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

So that 50 something can ride their carbon disc brake wonder on that dry day, 20 mile ride on the flats.. Well I see WRX's at the grocery parking lot too.

Hey, go easy on we 50 somethings.

 

[ray j willings]

Don't mention age, I'm 95 years old have a wife of 23,I have a body of 27 year old body builder and have some problems riding the cobbles due to my enormous penis.
I am extremely rich as well and my fastest time up alp d huez this year is 39 mins,,, honest

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Put 2 bikes next to each other...different frames but identical disc brakes..same rotor size and everything...the wheels 'may' swap back and forth, but in my bike shop experience, most of the time you have to readjust, align the caliper to keep it from rubbing.

Yes, the almighty UCI will mandate 'standards' for disc brakes, as in axle, rotor size but it's still going to be clown central. As for compress lever...seen any 'pros', waiting for a wheel, wheel in their hand and bike on the ground? Lever pushed in? It doesn't take much to push pads so far all the fluid leaks out..new bike!!

I ride 5 bikes, with Deltas thru DP and gee, just don't see it. BUT the marketeers will be a grinnin', bike shops will be making $ to set up, bleed, bleed again, set up again..with drawers pull of hoses, fittings, pads...

So that 50 something can ride their carbon disc brake wonder on that dry day, 20 mile ride on the flats.. Well I see WRX's at the grocery parking lot too.

I've done it with MTB wheels and they swap over fine on decently spec'd bikes, afraid I have no experience doing this with road discs. any rub usually disappears after the brakes are pulled and the pistons re-adjust.

I've never had my brake lever depress just through bike weight, I'll defer to you on that as you're vastly more experienced, but I'll point out my bike is heavier than any pros. I have to pump my MTB levers several times just to advance the pistons enough to clean them, a single press isn't going to do it, or if it does they need to design their calipers better.




I think we also need to look at this from a different angle. Maybe discs aren't the "best" for the pro peloton. But It's very hard to argue, from an amateur riders (not racers) point of view, that discs aren't the most sensible option. More flexible braking power, less hand fatigue, consistent brake feel in all conditions and no rim wear. This technology should be out there and being developed, if only to provide safer bikes for us amateur guys and the folks who just love to ride. I have never been on the road, close to an accident, and thought my brakes are fine. Every time I've had to slam on I've wished I had disc brakes, particularly in poor weather conditions. The pro peloton should be pushing the limits with bikes, but that should also include safety. Disc brakes WILL be safer for the vast majority of situations. At worst, they will make no difference for the pros.



The BB analogy is fine, I get that, it's annoying. Same with the MTB disc brake pads. But in reality, how annoying actually is it? I can have a new BB or set of pads at my office tomorrow if needed, usually with free or minimal postage. My road bike is press-fit (which I hate) but I can have one of those too, my bike in the shop and it's good to go in 20 minutes. I don't expect shops to carry everything but usually the limiting factor is not getting the parts but the queue for a mechanic. I get that it's a faff, it's annoying there is no one size fits all when there really should be, but at the end of the day I don't think it's really an issue unless you literally need it that day (and anyone who does should have a spare in their bits box!).

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Don't mention age, I'm 95 years old have a wife of 23,I have a body of 27 year old body builder and have some problems riding the cobbles due to my enormous penis.
I am extremely rich as well and my fastest time up alp d huez this year is 39 mins,,, honest

Great, let me know when you're heading to the highlands and I'll draft you up the Bealach na Ba

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

But It's very hard to argue, from an amateur riders (not racers) point of view, that discs aren't the most sensible option. More flexible braking power, less hand fatigue, consistent brake feel in all conditions and no rim wear. This technology should be out there and being developed, if only to provide safer bikes for us amateur guys and the folks who just love to ride. I have never been on the road, close to an accident, and thought my brakes are fine. Every time I've had to slam on I've wished I had disc brakes, particularly in poor weather conditions. The pro peloton should be pushing the limits with bikes, but that should also include safety. Disc brakes WILL be safer for the vast majority of situations. At worst, they will make no difference for the pros.

Apart from better wet weather perfromance, I agree with little of what you say. OK, no rim wear but disc and pad wear.

I remain convinced that disc brakes for road bikes are driven by the desire for profits.

"Hand fatigue"?! Rule #5.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

But It's very hard to argue, from an amateur riders (not racers) point of view, that discs aren't the most sensible option. More flexible braking power, less hand fatigue, consistent brake feel in all conditions and no rim wear. This technology should be out there and being developed, if only to provide safer bikes for us amateur guys and the folks who just love to ride. I have never been on the road, close to an accident, and thought my brakes are fine. Every time I've had to slam on I've wished I had disc brakes, particularly in poor weather conditions. The pro peloton should be pushing the limits with bikes, but that should also include safety. Disc brakes WILL be safer for the vast majority of situations. At worst, they will make no difference for the pros.

Apart from better wet weather perfromance, I agree with little of what you say. OK, no rim wear but disc and pad wear.

I remain convinced that disc brakes for road bikes are driven by the desire for profits.

"Hand fatigue"?! Rule #5.

What is it you don't agree with then? They perform better in all weather. They require less force to operate so you do suffer from less fatigue (Rule 5? I'm guessing you ride a 90inch single speed everywhere then?), they give much more consistent braking in a variety of weather conditions. All of these things are true.

Pad and disc wear? Pads wear on rim brakes and I'd rather replace a disc than a rim.

 

[ray j willings]

This topic ,Its getting heated ,,,,,,just like disc brakes

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

But It's very hard to argue, from an amateur riders (not racers) point of view, that discs aren't the most sensible option. More flexible braking power, less hand fatigue, consistent brake feel in all conditions and no rim wear. This technology should be out there and being developed, if only to provide safer bikes for us amateur guys and the folks who just love to ride. I have never been on the road, close to an accident, and thought my brakes are fine. Every time I've had to slam on I've wished I had disc brakes, particularly in poor weather conditions. The pro peloton should be pushing the limits with bikes, but that should also include safety. Disc brakes WILL be safer for the vast majority of situations. At worst, they will make no difference for the pros.

Apart from better wet weather perfromance, I agree with little of what you say. OK, no rim wear but disc and pad wear.

I remain convinced that disc brakes for road bikes are driven by the desire for profits.

"Hand fatigue"?! Rule #5.

What is it you don't agree with then? They perform better in all weather. They require less force to operate so you do suffer from less fatigue (Rule 5? I'm guessing you ride a 90inch single speed everywhere then?), they give much more consistent braking in a variety of weather conditions. All of these things are true.

Pad and disc wear? Pads wear on rim brakes and I'd rather replace a disc than a rim.

I don't know what you're doing that you are having to "slam on" the brakes regularly, or what sort of road rides you do where hand fatigue is even remotely an issue (I get that it can be an issue when mountain biking), but these things just aren't a regular part of my riding experience. Better brakes are safer, but if you're regularly "slamming on" the brakes it is perhaps only a matter of time before you lock a wheel and crash yourself. Discs might even make this more likely.

What about semi-freds with their hydraulic discs who don't realise that the pistons self-adjust, and so just ride them to the point of brake failure (as happened to a work colleague this year)? I see reports of pads wearing out in a single CX race, and of mountain bikers carrying spare pads. None of these things are an issue with rim brakes in my experience. Pad replacement for rim brakes is easy and cheap, and the rims last well enough unless you are riding a lot in the rain (which is why my next winter bike will have discs). But I just think they're wrong for the majority of fair-weather, casual riders.

The weight, the cost, the complexity, the ugly, (I'm mostly looking at you SRAM), the overheating issues....

I don't disagree that discs (mostly) work better as brakes, especially in the wet. But they bring a whole host of other disadvantages.

 

[ray j willings]

I agree with winkybiker . I just can't see Campy and Shimano and Sram and all the bike makers coming together to make Discs work for racing.

Plus they look ugly on road bikes.

 

[winkybiker]

Re:

I agree with winkybiker . I just can't see Campy and Shimano and Sram and all the bike makers coming together to make Discs work for racing.

Plus they look ugly on road bikes.

Oh, I think they will inevitably (and perhaps soon) end up on racing bikes, due to pressure from profit-hungry manufacturers. And sometime in the future, the compromises will be in the favour of discs. But not yet, except for bikes used for a lot of wet weather riding.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

I agree with winkybiker . I just can't see Campy and Shimano and Sram and all the bike makers coming together to make Discs work for racing.

Plus they look ugly on road bikes.

Oh, I think they will inevitably (and perhaps soon) end up on racing bikes, due to pressure from profit-hungry manufacturers. And sometime in the future, the compromises will be in the favour of discs. But not yet, except for bikes used for a lot of wet weather riding.

I agree with winkybiker . I just can't see Campy and Shimano and Sram and all the bike makers coming together to make Discs work for racing.

Plus they look ugly on road bikes.

Oh, I think they will inevitably (and perhaps soon) end up on racing bikes, due to pressure from profit-hungry manufacturers. And sometime in the future, the compromises will be in the favour of discs. But not yet, except for bikes used for a lot of wet weather riding.

You could be right. You guys can you tell me , wouldn't that put a lot of limits on bike design and we end up with bikes all looking the same due to the integrity needed for discs?

 

[Master50]

A few years ago, a young woman goes over her bars a few minutes ahead of me in my car. I came upon her as the police arrive and before the ambulance. I was compelled to stop and see if I could help. looking at her bike it was obvious her cantilever brakes went under the rim and into the spokes due to poor adjustment revealed by an emergency stop. From the looks of things she was not mechanically aware of the maintenance needs of her bike. It is entirely possible that if she had Disk brakes the pads could have been worn out but those very effective brakes caused her crash indirectly from poor maintenance. there was lots of wear left too, albeit incorrectly adjusted but she never would have crashed from disk brakes stopping her wheels from turning due to adjustments.

 

[ustabe]

Here's what I'm seeing in the shop, where we got a size run of Domane 4.3 Discs.

Riders who've never ridden road bikes, or haven't ridden them for a long time, see them and say, gee, now that there's a road bike with good brakes maybe I should get one. They take it for a test ride. Then they try a comparable bike with, say, 105, that costs about $400 less, or the Ultegra version, that costs a little more but, it's Ultegra, man. And they see that once they get out on the open road where they start enjoying themselves, they don't use the brakes all that much. And more often than not, the rim-brake bike gets purchased, especially if that bike has Shimano direct-mount stoppers. They are that good.

Right now disc brakes have their place, on rain-day bikes, urban commuters, cross bikes, gravel racers, etc., but for most riders who own just one road bike, the point is for it to be as light and nimble as the budget will allow. Where the technology is right now, paying more for something that makes the bike slower and less nimble and only gets used when you want to slow down doesn't make too much sense.

 

[winkybiker]

Re:

A few years ago, a young woman goes over her bars a few minutes ahead of me in my car. I came upon her as the police arrive and before the ambulance. I was compelled to stop and see if I could help. looking at her bike it was obvious her cantilever brakes went under the rim and into the spokes due to poor adjustment revealed by an emergency stop. From the looks of things she was not mechanically aware of the maintenance needs of her bike. It is entirely possible that if she had Disk brakes the pads could have been worn out but those very effective brakes caused her crash indirectly from poor maintenance. there was lots of wear left too, albeit incorrectly adjusted but she never would have crashed from disk brakes stopping her wheels from turning due to adjustments.

Yep, any bike can be rendered dangerous by poor setup, adjustment and/or maintenance.

 

[LugHugger]

Re:

Here's what I'm seeing in the shop, where we got a size run of Domane 4.3 Discs.

Riders who've never ridden road bikes, or haven't ridden them for a long time, see them and say, gee, now that there's a road bike with good brakes maybe I should get one. They take it for a test ride. Then they try a comparable bike with, say, 105, that costs about $400 less, or the Ultegra version, that costs a little more but, it's Ultegra, man. And they see that once they get out on the open road where they start enjoying themselves, they don't use the brakes all that much. And more often than not, the rim-brake bike gets purchased, especially if that bike has Shimano direct-mount stoppers. They are that good.

Right now disc brakes have their place, on rain-day bikes, urban commuters, cross bikes, gravel racers, etc., but for most riders who own just one road bike, the point is for it to be as light and nimble as the budget will allow. Where the technology is right now, paying more for something that makes the bike slower and less nimble and only gets used when you want to slow down doesn't make too much sense.

Interesting because it supports the new bike purchasing at our club of 60+ members who are a mix of racers/ex racers and non racers. Not a single new road or cross bike purchased with discs. Even the crossover MTBers have eschewed discs. One caveat - we ride in SE England with a max vertical descent of 220m over 10km!

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

But It's very hard to argue, from an amateur riders (not racers) point of view, that discs aren't the most sensible option. More flexible braking power, less hand fatigue, consistent brake feel in all conditions and no rim wear. This technology should be out there and being developed, if only to provide safer bikes for us amateur guys and the folks who just love to ride. I have never been on the road, close to an accident, and thought my brakes are fine. Every time I've had to slam on I've wished I had disc brakes, particularly in poor weather conditions. The pro peloton should be pushing the limits with bikes, but that should also include safety. Disc brakes WILL be safer for the vast majority of situations. At worst, they will make no difference for the pros.

Apart from better wet weather perfromance, I agree with little of what you say. OK, no rim wear but disc and pad wear.

I remain convinced that disc brakes for road bikes are driven by the desire for profits.

"Hand fatigue"?! Rule #5.

What is it you don't agree with then? They perform better in all weather. They require less force to operate so you do suffer from less fatigue (Rule 5? I'm guessing you ride a 90inch single speed everywhere then?), they give much more consistent braking in a variety of weather conditions. All of these things are true.

Pad and disc wear? Pads wear on rim brakes and I'd rather replace a disc than a rim.

They are stronger no doubt. With such a small tire patch, gonna be a lot of tire flat spots(skids) and blown tires.

'Hand fatigue'..oh please. I remember that when shimano came out with Di2, they said energy saved from pushing shift levers..Balderdash on them both. Modern DP brakes are both easy effort and modulate very well. A lot of discs are 'on-off'on'.

In 35 years I have never worn out a rim from brake wear. In the shop we saw maybe 3-4 a year..non issue.

For wet, sloppy, when the chance to wack a wheel is high? Yes, yes, and yes...from MTBs..another morph that marketeers are pushing..along with the other dopey idea, tubeless road.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

Here's what I'm seeing in the shop, where we got a size run of Domane 4.3 Discs.

Riders who've never ridden road bikes, or haven't ridden them for a long time, see them and say, gee, now that there's a road bike with good brakes maybe I should get one. They take it for a test ride. Then they try a comparable bike with, say, 105, that costs about $400 less, or the Ultegra version, that costs a little more but, it's Ultegra, man. And they see that once they get out on the open road where they start enjoying themselves, they don't use the brakes all that much. And more often than not, the rim-brake bike gets purchased, especially if that bike has Shimano direct-mount stoppers. They are that good.

Right now disc brakes have their place, on rain-day bikes, urban commuters, cross bikes, gravel racers, etc., but for most riders who own just one road bike, the point is for it to be as light and nimble as the budget will allow. Where the technology is right now, paying more for something that makes the bike slower and less nimble and only gets used when you want to slow down doesn't make too much sense.

Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!

 

[maxfitnessplus]

@Master50 Saw a similar accident which could have been avoided if the bike was maintained properly

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

that marketeers are pushing..along with the other dopey idea, tubeless road.

Yes! Tubeless road seem to me to be worse everywhere. Heavier, harder to mount, compatibility issues, might be impossible to seat with a pump (call a taxi), rides poorly and has you mucking around with goopy chemicals. Ridiculous.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Oh thank goodness!!(Not)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-ann ... al-peloton

and

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/the ... -racing-is

 

[Master50]

We will see what happens this summer I guess and the reality will define the way forward. Possible full disk in the pro tourr by 2017. All the solutions are just engineering problems.

 

[SirLes]

I always thought the limiting factor when it came to braking on a road bike was grip of the tire on the road. Am I wrong? Never used disc brakes.