Disc brakes on road bikes...

[Semper Fidelis]

Dedicated to all the retro-grouches out there. Pg.66 of the 1994 Bridgestone catalog:

"The rim will no longer have a braking surface out near the tire; instead we'll have hydraulic or electronic disc or drum brakes. The tires will be tubeless, like modern car tires. Flats will be almost entirely eliminated....."

Nice catch / article quote.

I guess I'm a retro-grouche. Still can't see disc brakes on my cycle but hey each to their own.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

What the pros use has a huge bearing on what people buy. Maybe not everyone but I can guarantee that if pros started riding balance bikes or penny farthings there would be many looking to switch immediately

Sure, I agree. But what people buy is not what is being discussed here. I'm pointing out that pro equipment choice has no bearing on real world riding. See bold above.

My latest bike has hydro discs and di2. And guess what.....I bought it specifically for those two aspects, and entirely for their use in winter conditions (uk). It's really in winter that di2 and discs are useful. Frankly I don't really see the point of either in a summer bike, but in crap weather they are both brilliant.

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

Sorry, that's simply not true. A few times I've pulled my brakes and nothing has happened while descending hills around Glasgow in the winter.

 

[LugHugger]

Re: Re:

We aren't talking about racing. Racing has no bearing on real world riding whatsoever....closed roads, all traffic flowing one way, good road surfaces etc etc. The only time anybody does an emergency stop in a race is if there's a crash in front.

Real world riding is entirely different.

What the pros use has a huge bearing on what people buy. Maybe not everyone but I can guarantee that if pros started riding balance bikes or penny farthings there would be many looking to switch immediately

Sure, I agree. But what people buy is not what is being discussed here. I'm pointing out that pro equipment choice has no bearing on real world riding. See bold above.

My latest bike has hydro discs and di2. And guess what.....I bought it specifically for those two aspects, and entirely for their use in winter conditions (uk). It's really in winter that di2 and discs are useful. Frankly I don't really see the point of either in a summer bike, but in crap weather they are both brilliant.

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

Sorry, that's simply not true. A few times I've pulled my brakes and nothing has happened while descending hills around Glasgow in the winter.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

What's all the fuss about Froome's new shoes. Everyone assuming Shimano made them when they won't even confirm. It really gets on my nerves when people make assumptions without knowing the facts.

His new shoes are SIDI, and they can be used with either rim or disc brakes.

 

[LugHugger]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

Aside from National Series DH racing between 1993-2001 transitioning from cantis thru V's to hydraulic rim then hydraulic discs? Regional CX racing on canti's then discs for the last 15 years? Riding and commuting on the road year-round for the last 25+ years? What do you think?
Like I said, calipers work just fine, in all circumstances, on the road here in the UK. If I lived somewhere with serious vertical meters like the Rockies, Alps, Pyrenees, etc I would certainly consider discs on any new road bike. But I've ridden in the Alps and Pyrenees on calipers in afternoon thunderstorms and never worried about lack of brakes and making a hairpin. I've gone down on a few corners - sure - but that's always been about tyre grip.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

Aside from National Series DH racing between 1993-2001 transitioning from cantis thru V's to hydraulic rim then hydraulic discs? Regional CX racing on canti's then discs for the last 15 years? Riding and commuting on the road year-round for the last 25+ years? What do you think?
Like I said, calipers work just fine, in all circumstances, on the road here in the UK. If I lived somewhere with serious vertical meters like the Rockies, Alps, Pyrenees, etc I would certainly consider discs on any new road bike. But I've ridden in the Alps and Pyrenees on calipers in afternoon thunderstorms and never worried about lack of brakes and making a hairpin. I've gone down on a few corners - sure - but that's always been about tyre grip.

Hey, I think that's pretty great, we have a similar racing-riding background, just the countries are different. And I do agree, rim calipers do work just fine. Difference being "just fine" and disc brakes being better in all conditions, even on road bikes. Seems that those hills around Glasgow that @kwikki rides in your Winters are better handled with discs. Had a test ride on the Focus Izalco Max disc earlier this Spring, same one that was reviewed by this site not too long ago. 40 miles, light rain, 3k ft. climbing/descending. Wow! just WOW! If you ever have the opportunity to ride any of the new disc road bikes I highly suggest it. Even if you live in the flats!

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

I live up in Vancouver and ride/commute all year round. Rim brakes are kind-of rubbish in the wet, but are all one needs when it's dry. My next winter bike will have discs, but I'm not seeing the case for my summer bike just yet.

 

[jmdirt]

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/donchisciotte-disc-brake-guard-first-look-47261/

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/donchisciotte-disc-brake-guard-first-look-47261/

That'll make wheel changes from neutral service car a snap...not..

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I doubt they're for pro riders or ever will be.

Having purchased a bike with disc brakes (Giant Defy Advanced 2) and already own a MTB with discs, my personal experience is that I don't think I'm ever going back. Having said that, there's definitely a difference as well between mechanical (nice word for just a cable) disc brakes, and hydraulics, which feel better. Put another way, the old adage is so that the higher up in price/quality you go, the better componant you get, bet that brake or caliper.

 

[kwikki]

Agreed.

I don't see them as neccesarily worthwhile for pro riders, what with wheel change difficulties etc, but for people like me they are fantastic.

I've just spunked £850 on a set of carbon wheels for my disc bike. No way would I buy the rim braked equivalent, when I know I'd wear the rims out (and therefore have to scrap the wheels) in a couple of years.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

The wheel change issue is going to be put to bed fairly soon, most likely by Interbike. There are two problems being addressed in a hypothetical disc brake environment at the PT level. Both solutions have been in development for the last couple years:

1. Taking a spare wheel from neutral service creates rotor/pad alignment issues.

2. Speed of QR over Thru axle during a wheel change.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The wheel change issue is going to be put to bed fairly soon, most likely by Interbike. There are two problems being addressed in a hypothetical disc brake environment at the PT level. Both solutions have been in development for the last couple years:

1. Taking a spare wheel from neutral service creates rotor/pad alignment issues.

2. Speed of QR over Thru axle during a wheel change.

I thought the PT 'standard' was going to be 15mm thru axle front and back and 160mm rotors? Of Course rotor alignment will be a big problem cuz each hub maker puts it in a little different place.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

The wheel change issue is going to be put to bed fairly soon, most likely by Interbike. There are two problems being addressed in a hypothetical disc brake environment at the PT level. Both solutions have been in development for the last couple years:

1. Taking a spare wheel from neutral service creates rotor/pad alignment issues.

2. Speed of QR over Thru axle during a wheel change.

I thought the PT 'standard' was going to be 15mm thru axle front and back and 160mm rotors? Of Course rotor alignment will be a big problem cuz each hub maker puts it in a little different place.

12x100 front, 12x142 rear, 140mm rotors. There's a thingy coming to market that compensates for the deviance in rotor mount spacing from one hub manufacturer to another, which comes down to 2mm or less.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The wheel change issue is going to be put to bed fairly soon, most likely by Interbike. There are two problems being addressed in a hypothetical disc brake environment at the PT level. Both solutions have been in development for the last couple years:

1. Taking a spare wheel from neutral service creates rotor/pad alignment issues.

2. Speed of QR over Thru axle during a wheel change.

I thought the PT 'standard' was going to be 15mm thru axle front and back and 160mm rotors? Of Course rotor alignment will be a big problem cuz each hub maker puts it in a little different place.

12x100 front, 12x142 rear, 140mm rotors. There's a thingy coming to market that compensates for the deviance in rotor mount spacing from one hub manufacturer to another, which comes down to 2mm or less.

Gonna be comedy central. Guys open their brakes for climbs now..what will they do with the inevitable, 'snick, snick, snick' of a rubbing rotor..bike toss central.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

The wheel change issue is going to be put to bed fairly soon, most likely by Interbike. There are two problems being addressed in a hypothetical disc brake environment at the PT level. Both solutions have been in development for the last couple years:

1. Taking a spare wheel from neutral service creates rotor/pad alignment issues.

2. Speed of QR over Thru axle during a wheel change.

I thought the PT 'standard' was going to be 15mm thru axle front and back and 160mm rotors? Of Course rotor alignment will be a big problem cuz each hub maker puts it in a little different place.

12x100 front, 12x142 rear, 140mm rotors. There's a thingy coming to market that compensates for the deviance in rotor mount spacing from one hub manufacturer to another, which comes down to 2mm or less.

Gonna be comedy central. Guys open their brakes for climbs now..what will they do with the inevitable, 'snick, snick, snick' of a rubbing rotor..bike toss central.

"Snick, snick, snick" is an untrue rotor. The mechanic's fault, not the part. Once again, the problem with disc at at the pro level is neutral service, being able to take a wheel and eliminate the variance in rotor alignment as it relates to caliper/pad position. Not only does the solution solve the mechanics, logistics as well. Centrally speaking of course.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'd be curious to know how often neutral service comes to the aid of such needs? Of course we just saw the disaster with Froome on Ventoux. But I'd like to see some numbers.

 

[kwikki]

It depends. For something like Paris-Roubaic it can be 20 or 30 wheels.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

It's not about detractors, etc., it's about 'are they worth it'? Wet, sloppy, touring, tandems, cross, commute in slop..yup, better than caliper but the argument for me is the marketing mantra that they are better in all places, on all bikes, all the time..along with fatter is better, tires that is. 'BETTER".

Heavier, less standards(mount type, axle type, rotor size type), more complicated, more expensive. If they work better for you..groovey. If ya gotta have them for your sunday coffee shop points, fine and dandy..even if the ride is your 30 miles, once a week, on flat, dry roads.

BUT please, mr spam, don't tell me I GOTTA have 'em or....'you think doping in racing is OK'..which is what scam said.

'k?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The wheel change issue is going to be put to bed fairly soon, most likely by Interbike. There are two problems being addressed in a hypothetical disc brake environment at the PT level. Both solutions have been in development for the last couple years:

1. Taking a spare wheel from neutral service creates rotor/pad alignment issues.

2. Speed of QR over Thru axle during a wheel change.

I thought the PT 'standard' was going to be 15mm thru axle front and back and 160mm rotors? Of Course rotor alignment will be a big problem cuz each hub maker puts it in a little different place.

12x100 front, 12x142 rear, 140mm rotors. There's a thingy coming to market that compensates for the deviance in rotor mount spacing from one hub manufacturer to another, which comes down to 2mm or less.

Gonna be comedy central. Guys open their brakes for climbs now..what will they do with the inevitable, 'snick, snick, snick' of a rubbing rotor..bike toss central.

"Snick, snick, snick" is an untrue rotor. The mechanic's fault, not the part. Once again, the problem with disc at at the pro level is neutral service, being able to take a wheel and eliminate the variance in rotor alignment as it relates to caliper/pad position. Not only does the solution solve the mechanics, logistics as well. Centrally speaking of course.

I've seen many caliper's rub on perfectly true rotors..it's just that the rotors aren't exactly the same place on every hub, unless same manufacturer. Nothing about 'bikes' is standardized..not wheels, not BBs, don't expect neutral service to be standardized either. IMHO-of course.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

It's not about detractors, etc., it's about 'are they worth it'? Wet, sloppy, touring, tandems, cross, commute in slop..yup, better than caliper but the argument for me is the marketing mantra that they are better in all places, on all bikes, all the time..along with fatter is better, tires that is. 'BETTER".

Heavier, less standards(mount type, axle type, rotor size type), more complicated, more expensive. If they work better for you..groovey. If ya gotta have them for your sunday coffee shop points, fine and dandy..even if the ride is your 30 miles, once a week, on flat, dry roads.

BUT please, mr spam, don't tell me I GOTTA have 'em or....'you think doping in racing is OK'..which is what scam said.

'k?

There is no doubt that the pressure for pro teams to switch to discs is coming from bike and component manufacturers, and it presents a whole raft of issues for teams, with dubious benefit in terms of racing.

But race bikes with discs really interest me. I like riding super light and stiff machines as fast as I can, and discs offer more powerful and controllable braking in situations that don't occur in races, such as encountering a massive pothole near a corner, having to stop at an unexpected junction on a descent and most common of all encountering an oncoming vehicle on a windy single-track road.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

It's not about detractors, etc., it's about 'are they worth it'? Wet, sloppy, touring, tandems, cross, commute in slop..yup, better than caliper but the argument for me is the marketing mantra that they are better in all places, on all bikes, all the time..along with fatter is better, tires that is. 'BETTER".

Heavier, less standards(mount type, axle type, rotor size type), more complicated, more expensive. If they work better for you..groovey. If ya gotta have them for your sunday coffee shop points, fine and dandy..even if the ride is your 30 miles, once a week, on flat, dry roads.

BUT please, mr spam, don't tell me I GOTTA have 'em or....'you think doping in racing is OK'..which is what scam said.

'k?

At risk of repeating oneself means different things to different people. I'm not much of a Strava user, but looking back on my days in Colorado I still hold a bunch of top 10's and podium KOM's on tons of descents all over the dry and dusty Front Range. I'm not a climber, but I drop like a stone. These were all done on road disc. I never touched those spots doing it on my old rim brakes. Fatter is better apparently, Mr. Crampandgoslo. Did you not notice that the entire PT ditched 23c for 25c tires?

Regards,
Mr. Spam?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I've seen many caliper's rub on perfectly true rotors..it's just that the rotors aren't exactly the same place on every hub, unless same manufacturer. Nothing about 'bikes' is standardized..not wheels, not BBs, don't expect neutral service to be standardized either. IMHO-of course.

If the rotor is true and it's still rubbing then you unbolt the caliper and recenter. Easily done in the stand, but neutral service is going to be able to do this on the fly by accomplishing the same thing in seconds what would normally require a couple minutes fiddling with caliper mounting bolts. This problem already has a solution, will be revealed during trade show season

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

The only mod needed for winter riding here in the UK is a set of mudguards [fenders]. Mechanical gears and calipers work just fine year round.

I have no similar recent experience. Over the last 20 years, modern brakes, pads and rims have served just fine in all seasons and conditions.

Confirmation bias. How does your own personal experience relate or equate to others? Curious if all detractors of disc brakes, never mind the pro peloton for a moment, have any real world experience at all with them. Or are these comments purely based on conjecture? I live in the wettest region of the US and have yet to see a customer bring back a disc equipped bike with the explanation; 'meh, my old rim brakes worked just fine'.

It's not about detractors, etc., it's about 'are they worth it'? Wet, sloppy, touring, tandems, cross, commute in slop..yup, better than caliper but the argument for me is the marketing mantra that they are better in all places, on all bikes, all the time..along with fatter is better, tires that is. 'BETTER".

Heavier, less standards(mount type, axle type, rotor size type), more complicated, more expensive. If they work better for you..groovey. If ya gotta have them for your sunday coffee shop points, fine and dandy..even if the ride is your 30 miles, once a week, on flat, dry roads.

BUT please, mr spam, don't tell me I GOTTA have 'em or....'you think doping in racing is OK'..which is what scam said.

'k?

There is no doubt that the pressure for pro teams to switch to discs is coming from bike and component manufacturers, and it presents a whole raft of issues for teams, with dubious benefit in terms of racing.

But race bikes with discs really interest me. I like riding super light and stiff machines as fast as I can, and discs offer more powerful and controllable braking in situations that don't occur in races, such as encountering a massive pothole near a corner, having to stop at an unexpected junction on a descent and most common of all encountering an oncoming vehicle on a windy single-track road.

If disc brakes makes JRA in the real world safer I'm not sure that this aspect doesn't apply to racing. Say that pothole around a corner is a mass pile up; aren't you more likely to avoid it with 30% better stopping power than rim brakes? If disc allows you to brake later into tight corners, you're going to carry more speed on the exit. PT teams spend crazy money chasing much less margins.