Disc brakes on road bikes...

[King Boonen]

The thread is open again. Lets not see a repeat of that please.

 

[aphronesis]

All charged animus aside, I'm confused: is the argument that the bicycling industry doesn't run its own models and psychologies of planned obsolescence to keep ahead of all the "traps" that brought down larger industries of monopoly capital some years ago.

If the answer is of course it does, then regardless of actual improvements wouldn't this warrant some periodic skepticism of how the whole "package" (as opposed to part) begins to circulate?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

All charged animus aside, I'm confused: is the argument that the bicycling industry doesn't run its own models and psychologies of planned obsolescence to keep ahead of all the "traps" that brought down larger industries of monopoly capital some years ago.

If the answer is of course it does, then regardless of actual improvements wouldn't this warrant some periodic skepticism of how the whole "package" (as opposed to part) begins to circulate?

The disc brake debate has nothing to do with planned obsolescence at all, has everything to do with "actual improvements" of the system that it's replacing. Not sure about the "skepticism" side of this. The consumer has the choice right now to go test ride with no financial commitment and make their own minds up, and they also have the choice to stay with rim brakes if that's their jam, or keep their decade old whatever running. But the longer the apprehension over a brake system, the less choices there are going to be for rim brake versions down the road for new model year purchases.

 

[aphronesis]

Not following your last sentence back to your first sentence.

Skepticism: most consumers don't show up to a test ride w/o some buzz in their ear.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

Not following your last sentence back to your first sentence.

What's so hard to follow. Was going from 32 hole eyeletted box section rims to low spoke ct aero carbon planned obsolescence? Or how about square taper bb to pressfit?

Skepticism: most consumers don't show up to a test ride w/o some buzz in their ear.

Sure, obviously. How does anything come to market without some buzz? It's up to you to sort it out to see if it's a path you want to go down. If not, oh well.

 

[aphronesis]

Market is by definition, planned obsolescence. For many people.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Not at all, unless all those people you're speaking for have a really poor idea of what planned obsolescence is. You'll have to show me an instance or design aspect of a bicycle brake (disc or non) that was brought to market with the sole intention to become obsolete in a short period of time. Because that is the crux of planned obsolescence. The market has been defining the path regarding road disc only for the last 5-6 years, so I think most people are smarter than you're giving them credit for.

 

[aphronesis]

I'm taking no credit from consumers. (Questioning marketers.) Not hearing much give on this one.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

I'm confused

Not following your last sentence back to your first sentence.

Not hearing much give on this one.

Can you really blame me?

 

[aphronesis]

Blame you? No. You equate technology with market and needs as isomorphic.

Not everyone agrees.

I generally go full prose rather than the opaque multi quote out. Has more traction.

Nothing you've said alters the terms of the previous exchange. Other than the antipathy.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

Pardon. I just smelled another useless 'marketing scam' discussion. Is my nose not working properly?

 

[aphronesis]

Not my terms. A bit light. But maybe different frequencies as it goes.

I'm long outside the industry and ride brakeless so don't care. As you know. Your conflicts with b and forum angst I can sympathize with but it's maybe overstated too. (This shades to the political thread.)

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

Not my terms. A bit light. But maybe different frequencies as it goes.

I'm long outside the industry and ride brakeless so don't care. As you know. Your conflicts with b and forum angst I can sympathize with but it's maybe overstated too. (This shades to the political thread.)

If that's the case then it's kind of pointless to log in and engage on the the topic. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your priorities. Just sayin'.

 

[aphronesis]

So you're saying by logging in and engaging with him repeatedly , you rectified some wrongs toward disc brake enlightenment?

My priorities are fine. We all make choices about how to kill a few minutes here and there.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Way to skirt everything in the last few posts. I'm asking you, not him. Him was an extreme example of a troll, you are just a more mild version of one because you saw what happened and you thought you'd have a go. So, wanna talk about bs marketing regarding disc brakes in road cycling? No? "Don't care".

So a mod draws a line in the sand and the first person in shows his clear intentions without much prying. Wonderful.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Not my terms. A bit light. But maybe different frequencies as it goes.

I'm long outside the industry and ride brakeless so don't care. As you know. Your conflicts with b and forum angst I can sympathize with but it's maybe overstated too. (This shades to the political thread.)

Then I have to ask, why are you posting here? This thread is for discussion about disc brakes on road bikes. Not an in depth discussion on marketing and users involvement in it. Can we please keep the discussion to disc brakes?

 

[aphronesis]

I've asked repeatedly: since when is marketing irrelevant to disc brakes? Ne est ce pas? That was the crux of the dispute, no? Naturally, I have friends hitting the market; not everyone rolls fixed. I'm trying to understand what's so deeply contentious here in order to relay it to my friends.

But of course: happy to cede the corner.

 

[King Boonen]

No one has said it is irrelevant, it certainly is relevant, but the discussion needs to stay on disc brakes and disc brake marketing. It is not the place for a general discussion of the way the bicycle industry pushes products and it doesn't hold that because the industry has pushed things before in a less than honest way they are pushing discs in a similar way.

If you want a general marketing thread then, by all means, make one. Otherwise please keep it focussed on discs.

 

[aphronesis]

Re:

Way to skirt everything in the last few posts. I'm asking you, not him. Him was an extreme example of a troll, you are just a more mild version of one because you saw what happened and you thought you'd have a go. So, wanna talk about bs marketing regarding disc brakes in road cycling? No? "Don't care".

So a mod draws a line in the sand and the first person in shows his clear intentions without much prying. Wonderful.

Your last few posts were strictly personal. Light, but strictly personal. Manufacture and marketing of bikes is not trivial. Yet it's not clear you have a rounded or detached perspective on this. One can never speak of others' intentions'. I was looking for the point of dispute. You can't name it. Jackie can't. Per the above exchange w/ KB, I'm out.

Don't stop believing.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Way to skirt everything in the last few posts. I'm asking you, not him. Him was an extreme example of a troll, you are just a more mild version of one because you saw what happened and you thought you'd have a go. So, wanna talk about bs marketing regarding disc brakes in road cycling? No? "Don't care".

So a mod draws a line in the sand and the first person in shows his clear intentions without much prying. Wonderful.

Your last few posts were strictly personal. Light, but strictly personal. Manufacture and marketing of bikes is not trivial. Yet it's not clear you have a rounded or detached perspective on this. One can never speak of others' intentions'. I was looking for the point of dispute. You can't name it. Jackie can't. Per the above exchange w/ KB, I'm out.

Don't stop believing.

I've been pretty clear all along. Your point was about planned obsolescence, which was wrong from the get go. Your secondary point was some vague reference to marketing of the whole package instead of just the part and the circulation of such. I gave you a completely valid response which you summarily blew off as not being able to understand the most simple paragraph. So we find out later you don't really care, but oh wait,, you actually did want to learn something to pass along to your friends.... Uhh, errr.... What was that about being clear again? Oh, never mind. You're leaving. Don't care.

 

[red_flanders]

Disc brakes clearly perform better than rim brakes. They brake faster, are less susceptible to slowing from heat and water on the road, and recover performance from heating more quickly. They don't interfere with glues. Is there some danger in a group from disc brakes in crashes? Seems there is. Are manufacturers trying to get teams to use them anyway because roadies will only but what the pros use? Yep.

Are rim brakes a problem? No, not really. Neither is steel as a frame/fork material. But there is stuff that performs better. Does anyone "need" them? Nope. Can one go a bit faster into corners with them? Yep. Do they inspire a bit more confidence? Yep. Are they being sold as the next cool thing? Yep. Do roadies fall for the next bit of gear pretty consistently? Yep.

Should I ever buy another road bike, it will have disc brakes. Great. Certainly glad to have them on my MTB.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Re:

Disc brakes clearly perform better than rim brakes. They brake faster, are less susceptible to slowing from heat and water on the road, and recover performance from heating more quickly. They don't interfere with glues. Is there some danger in a group from disc brakes in crashes? Seems there is. Are manufacturers trying to get teams to use them anyway because roadies will only but what the pros use? Yep.

Are rim brakes a problem? No, not really. Neither is steel as a frame/fork material. But there is stuff that performs better. Does anyone "need" them? Nope. Can one go a bit faster into corners with them? Yep. Do they inspire a bit more confidence? Yep. Are they being sold as the next cool thing? Yep. Do roadies fall for the next bit of gear pretty consistently? Yep.

Should I ever buy another road bike, it will have disc brakes. Great. Certainly glad to have them on my MTB.

Yep!

What Red Said ^^

Got them on the MTB, got them on my Touring Bike and my next road bike will have them also

 

[blutto]

....yeah it claims to be science but the "study" only has an n of 4, so hardly the stuff to support a study but it is interesting none-the-less...

....so a pretty good rider goes down a long really fast hill in both dry and wet conditions using rim and disc brakes....

....the quick and dirty takeaway...in over 9km of screaming descent with some wicked switchbacks....the rim brakes "win" by two seconds in the dry and "lose" by eight seconds in the wet....and on a top end bike you would be spending near $10,000 to go disc and then hamper yourself with extra weight for the "money" part of the trip, the uphill....and you don't believe me go ask Marcel Kittel, he knows stuff and even has some practical experience....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hKMgUEku4

....file under just sayin eh...and ...really expensive marginal gains.....or rather expensive really marginal gains...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Disc brakes clearly perform better than rim brakes. They brake faster, are less susceptible to slowing from heat and water on the road, and recover performance from heating more quickly. They don't interfere with glues. Is there some danger in a group from disc brakes in crashes? Seems there is. Are manufacturers trying to get teams to use them anyway because roadies will only but what the pros use? Yep.

Are rim brakes a problem? No, not really. Neither is steel as a frame/fork material. But there is stuff that performs better. Does anyone "need" them? Nope. Can one go a bit faster into corners with them? Yep. Do they inspire a bit more confidence? Yep. Are they being sold as the next cool thing? Yep. Do roadies fall for the next bit of gear pretty consistently? Yep.

Should I ever buy another road bike, it will have disc brakes. Great. Certainly glad to have them on my MTB.

Yep!

What Red Said ^^

Got them on the MTB, got them on my Touring Bike and my next road bike will have them also

....read this and a bumper sticker I once saw came to mind....it said....Come the Rapture Can I Have Your Car ?.....we saw that and just pi$$ed ourselves laughing, but I digress.....

....so when you reach the promised land, you know where everything you ride has disc brakes, do you have anything old and hopelessly outdated you might want to pass to an ignorant troglodyte such as myself, at the very least that would save you some dumping fees at a garbage facility .....thinking old stuff, Colnago, heck I'll even settle for 10spd Record, and wheels, I'll take those too, tubulars ?....

Cheers

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

....yeah it claims to be science but the "study" only has an n of 4, so hardly the stuff to support a study but it is interesting none-the-less...

....so a pretty good rider goes down a long really fast hill in both dry and wet conditions using rim and disc brakes....

....the quick and dirty takeaway...in over 9km of screaming descent with some wicked switchbacks....the rim brakes "win" by two seconds in the dry and "lose" by eight seconds in the wet....and on a top end bike you would be spending near $10,000 to go disc and then hamper yourself with extra weight for the "money" part of the trip, the uphill....and you don't believe me go ask Marcel Kittel, he knows stuff and even has some practical experience....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hKMgUEku4

....file under just sayin eh....

Cheers

When all we see is Kittel's Venge on stilts over and over and over again people are going to assume that 7.9kg is normal for a disc equipped bike. Throw a set tubular wheels on a Focus Izalco Max, Giant TCR Advanced, S-Works Tarmac or a few more lightweights out there and you would need to ballast the bike to comply with the 6.8kg UCI weight limit. "Hamper yourself"..... You sure about that?