discussion!!! contador

[Angliru]

Sure he will, he barely beat a 25 year old Andy who made a lot of silly mistakes. Next year Andy is going to be 27 which is usually when GT riders get to their very best. Even if he's allowed to race next year he's going to struggle very hard to beat him.

You guys will be bailing that sinking ship next year around this time.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

One of the online bike rags reported that L'Equipe was quoting Paolo Tiralongo -- to whom AC 'gifted' a stage win in this year's Giro -- that the drug-related tauntings from the fans had wrecked AC's composure and put him in a bad mental state. Must be the print version because I've checked L'Equipe online and can't find it.

 

[Ramira]

You guys will be bailing that sinking ship next year around this time.

I've been a Schleck fan for quite a while now and there's no way I'm going to change my opinion just because he might get beaten by Contador. Also there's as little evidence to back up your claim as there is mine. He took 2 minute's 49 on a 24 year Andy old in 2009 (not counting the TTT) and 39 seconds last year.

Yes he destroyed the field in the Giro but if you look at for example Kreuziger he lost 11:54 to Contador in the Tour and only 11:28 in a Giro which was a lot more selective. In other words he was no better then he was last year in the Tour his competition was just a lot worse.

And then ofcourse there's the he will take 2-3 minutes on Andy Schleck in the ITT when he's on his very best. He took 1 minutes 44 in the 2009 time trial which he won on and Andy Schleck who had nothing to gain or to lose (he was 2nd no matter what) and only 31 seconds last year. I would say 1 minute 30 is the best he can ever take in about 40km on Andy even if he's at his very best.

Then again all Contador fans conveniently forget that he won his first Tour by only 31 seconds to Levi Leipheimer (and ofcourse only 23 to Evans), his first Giro by only 2 minutes 54 to Bruseghin and his Vuelta by 46 seconds to Leipheimer. Any time he's been up against serious competition he barely won it with the exception of the 2009 tour where he took all but 1 minute and 5 seconds in the TTT and the ITT where Andy didn't really try.

Anyway that's my rant over, I hope Contador gets cleared by the CAS so next year it will be clear that Contador will never destroy anyone of the level of Andy Schleck in his career.

 

[tobsie]

OT

Will Contador ride the vuelta this year? Last year he told people he would return in 2011.

 

[jobiwan]

i've been a schleck fan for quite a while now and there's no way i'm going to change my opinion just because he might get beaten by contador. Also there's as little evidence to back up your claim as there is mine. He took 2 minute's 49 on a 24 year andy old in 2009 (not counting the ttt) and 39 seconds last year.

Yes he destroyed the field in the giro but if you look at for example kreuziger he lost 11:54 to contador in the tour and only 11:28 in a giro which was a lot more selective. In other words he was no better then he was last year in the tour his competition was just a lot worse.

And then ofcourse there's the he will take 2-3 minutes on andy schleck in the itt when he's on his very best. He took 1 minutes 44 in the 2009 time trial which he won on and andy schleck who had nothing to gain or to lose (he was 2nd no matter what) and only 31 seconds last year. I would say 1 minute 30 is the best he can ever take in about 40km on andy even if he's at his very best.

Then again all contador fans conveniently forget that he won his first tour by only 31 seconds to levi leipheimer (and ofcourse only 23 to evans), his first giro by only 2 minutes 54 to bruseghin and his vuelta by 46 seconds to leipheimer. Any time he's been up against serious competition he barely won it with the exception of the 2009 tour where he took all but 1 minute and 5 seconds in the ttt and the itt where andy didn't really try.

Anyway that's my rant over, i hope contador gets cleared by the cas so next year it will be clear that contador will never destroy anyone of the level of andy schleck in his career.

+1123476056081726803640162035601792873

 

[hrotha]

Serious question: what do you guys like about Andy?

 

[Midnightfright]

Serious question: what do you guys like about Andy?

What I like about him is he seems to have the most casual attitude towards victory, he genuinely enjoys his brothers victories, what I most like is hes human prone to mistakes and error of judgements even though it rubs people up the wrong way he tends to say it how he sees it and he's an exceptional climber.

 

[Ramira]

Serious question: what do you guys like about Andy?

For me part of it is that I like the way he is when he's just fooling around. While I must admit he can be a little cocky and sometimes downright silly when talking about the race sometimes, I would rather have a guy who's a little to open and cocky like Andy then someone who never says anything that might be taken badly. He says what's on his mind, and I bet that's not very different from what other cyclists think he just doesn't keep it to himself.

But if you see him in his element (like in the documentary Andy Schleck's tour) he just seems like a very relaxed and fun down to earth guy (I mean he spend his salary not on a house in the Riviera or Monaco but in a little cottage by a lake in Luxembourg where he has his family and friends over for fishing and a BBQ). And to be honest I rather have a guy who's a little to open and cocky like Andy then someone who never says anything that might be taken badly. He says what's on his mind, and I bet that's not very different from what other cyclists think he just doesn't keep it to himself.

But most of anything I just fell in love with his style and pinache back when he won LBL I was already a fan of the Schleck brothers back then but the way he won that totally won me over.

And finally I generally like to cheer for the challenger to the big bad beast of any sport, it's how I became a fan of the Boston Red Sox (can't stand the Yankees) and Barcelona (same with Real Madrid) and that pretty much solidified my love for Andy after it seemed Contador would just roll up the competition year in year out before Andy came around.

 

[Ramira]

+1123476056081726803640162035601792873

Hmm I hope that's not for real, I can't imagine what hell it must be to live with that many personalities (then again the idea of multiple personalities has pretty much been debunked by psychologists but not gonna let that influence my concern for you )

 

[Jeanne]

I've been a Schleck fan for quite a while now and there's no way I'm going to change my opinion just because he might get beaten by Contador. Also there's as little evidence to back up your claim as there is mine. He took 2 minute's 49 on a 24 year Andy old in 2009 (not counting the TTT) and 39 seconds last year.

Yes he destroyed the field in the Giro but if you look at for example Kreuziger he lost 11:54 to Contador in the Tour and only 11:28 in a Giro which was a lot more selective. In other words he was no better then he was last year in the Tour his competition was just a lot worse.

And then ofcourse there's the he will take 2-3 minutes on Andy Schleck in the ITT when he's on his very best. He took 1 minutes 44 in the 2009 time trial which he won on and Andy Schleck who had nothing to gain or to lose (he was 2nd no matter what) and only 31 seconds last year. I would say 1 minute 30 is the best he can ever take in about 40km on Andy even if he's at his very best.

Then again all Contador fans conveniently forget that he won his first Tour by only 31 seconds to Levi Leipheimer (and ofcourse only 23 to Evans), his first Giro by only 2 minutes 54 to Bruseghin and his Vuelta by 46 seconds to Leipheimer. Any time he's been up against serious competition he barely won it with the exception of the 2009 tour where he took all but 1 minute and 5 seconds in the TTT and the ITT where Andy didn't really try.

Anyway that's my rant over, I hope Contador gets cleared by the CAS so next year it will be clear that Contador will never destroy anyone of the level of Andy Schleck in his career.

well said! Nothing left for me to add!

 

[Angliru]

I've been a Schleck fan for quite a while now and there's no way I'm going to change my opinion just because he might get beaten by Contador. Also there's as little evidence to back up your claim as there is mine. He took 2 minute's 49 on a 24 year Andy old in 2009 (not counting the TTT) and 39 seconds last year.

Yes he destroyed the field in the Giro but if you look at for example Kreuziger he lost 11:54 to Contador in the Tour and only 11:28 in a Giro which was a lot more selective. In other words he was no better then he was last year in the Tour his competition was just a lot worse.

And then ofcourse there's the he will take 2-3 minutes on Andy Schleck in the ITT when he's on his very best. He took 1 minutes 44 in the 2009 time trial which he won on and Andy Schleck who had nothing to gain or to lose (he was 2nd no matter what) and only 31 seconds last year. I would say 1 minute 30 is the best he can ever take in about 40km on Andy even if he's at his very best.

Then again all Contador fans conveniently forget that he won his first Tour by only 31 seconds to Levi Leipheimer (and ofcourse only 23 to Evans), his first Giro by only 2 minutes 54 to Bruseghin and his Vuelta by 46 seconds to Leipheimer. Any time he's been up against serious competition he barely won it with the exception of the 2009 tour where he took all but 1 minute and 5 seconds in the TTT and the ITT where Andy didn't really try.

Anyway that's my rant over, I hope Contador gets cleared by the CAS so next year it will be clear that Contador will never destroy anyone of the level of Andy Schleck in his career.

Here's hoping your dream becomes a nightmare of disappointments.

 

[Ramira]

Here's hoping your dream becomes a nightmare of disappointments.

Brilliant comeback, I state facts and you respond with completely baseless rhetoric, thanks for letting me know there's no point in trying to have a discussion with you. I won't try to do so again.

 

[Angliru]

Brilliant comeback, I state facts and you respond with completely baseless rhetoric, thanks for letting me know there's no point in trying to have a discussion with you. I won't try to do so again.

Those weren't facts but perceptions. You're entitled to your viewpoint of course and I'm free to respond in kind especially when you denigrate a rider that has a much more established and impressive resume than your hero. Additonally you having the audacity to use the phrase "a rider on the level of Andy" as if Contador's accomplishments and abilities aren't in the same league.
What level does that put Contador by comparison? Immortal? Andy is a talented cyclist but he's not yet accomplished a fraction of what Contador has and will.

I didn't ask the question so my response shouldn't have hit you with such disappointment.

 

[Angliru]

I've been a Schleck fan for quite a while now and there's no way I'm going to change my opinion just because he might get beaten by Contador. Also there's as little evidence to back up your claim as there is mine. He took 2 minute's 49 on a 24 year Andy old in 2009 (not counting the TTT) and 39 seconds last year.

Yes he destroyed the field in the Giro but if you look at for example Kreuziger he lost 11:54 to Contador in the Tour and only 11:28 in a Giro which was a lot more selective. In other words he was no better then he was last year in the Tour his competition was just a lot worse.

And then ofcourse there's the he will take 2-3 minutes on Andy Schleck in the ITT when he's on his very best. He took 1 minutes 44 in the 2009 time trial which he won on and Andy Schleck who had nothing to gain or to lose (he was 2nd no matter what) and only 31 seconds last year. I would say 1 minute 30 is the best he can ever take in about 40km on Andy even if he's at his very best.

Then again all Contador fans conveniently forget that he won his first Tour by only 31 seconds to Levi Leipheimer (and ofcourse only 23 to Evans), his first Giro by only 2 minutes 54 to Bruseghin and his Vuelta by 46 seconds to Leipheimer. Any time he's been up against serious competition he barely won it with the exception of the 2009 tour where he took all but 1 minute and 5 seconds in the TTT and the ITT where Andy didn't really try.

Anyway that's my rant over, I hope Contador gets cleared by the CAS so next year it will be clear that Contador will never destroy anyone of the level of Andy Schleck in his career.

How's this for a response:

How many grand tours has Andy won?
How many stage races has Andy won?
How many grand tour stages has Andy won that weren't gifted to him or lucked up into?

Now ask yourself the first two questions but replace Andy's name with Contador's. Also ask yourself if Andy is on such a high level why didn't he try in the 2009 ITT?

You speak about how Contador doesn't win his grand tours by large margins with the exception of this year's Giro but how many grand tours has Andy won by any margin? How many stage races has Andy won by any margin?
How many races has Andy won and then ask yourself how many races Contador has won.

How's that for a response?

 

[Archibald]

I hope you recognize that this wasn't a strategy (Giro/Tour double) that was set forth prior to the start of the season. Just because Riis made mention of the fact that he believes Contador could do the triple doesn't mean that even doing the double this year was part of his planned schedule of races for 2011. I would suspect that they would give him a much lighter schedule of races prior to the Giro.

I agree with the injury issues having a strong effect on his performance but you have to see that having a extremely challenging Giro in his legs can't be anything but a detriment. Fatigue results in a lack of snap/explosion that he displayed in the Giro. It also lessens his overall endurance such that on a stage that started out going uphill all the way to the first 7+% average grade, 10+km climb followed by two climbs equal in length and difficulty, it's a wonder he only lost seconds to his opponents and not minutes. That is a testament to the high level he maintains even when fatigued.

Now I'm not discounting Contador's chances of eventually successfully completing the Giro/Tour double but IMO it would depend on the routes of both events and on Saxo adding additional support riders to the team.
This team as it is was put together on the fly after the sponsorship issues and the creation of Team Schleck resulted in a max exodus of the team's talent.

I definately knew that the TdF wasn't in the picture for his season. However, he must have felt some form of confidence in his recovery from the Giro to even consider doing and winning the TdF once the opportunity arose.

I don't believe the fatigue to be such a factor at the moment, but come the Alps is where I expect to see it take effect. It wouldn't surprise me if he has almost nothing left in the tank come the TT and actually gains no time on the Schlecks.

Completely agree that the parcours will need to suit for anyone to succeed at a Giro/Tour double. And obviously having good enough (fresh) support for both tours.

 

[thirteen]

One of the online bike rags reported that L'Equipe was quoting Paolo Tiralongo -- to whom AC 'gifted' a stage win in this year's Giro -- that the drug-related tauntings from the fans had wrecked AC's composure and put him in a bad mental state. Must be the print version because I've checked L'Equipe online and can't find it.

one of the online bike rags
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tiralongo-contador-is-not-serene

 

[Ramira]

How's this for a response:

How many grand tours has Andy won?
How many stage races has Andy won?
How many grand tour stages has Andy won that weren't gifted to him or lucked up into?

Now ask yourself the first two questions but replace Andy's name with Contador's. Also ask yourself if Andy is on such a high level why didn't he try in the 2009 ITT?

You speak about how Contador doesn't win his grand tours by large margins with the exception of this year's Giro but how many grand tours has Andy won by any margin? How many stage races has Andy won by any margin?
How many races has Andy won and then ask yourself how many races Contador has won.

How's that for a response?

It's a response that show's that Contador has been more successful then Andy, something I never denied. You said he would "tear the bros another a-hole". I responded by stating Contador wouldn't have such an easy time defeating Andy even if he was at his best. To which you responded by saying Contador has had more success then Andy in the past, once again not reacting to me but to a straw man you decided to replace me with who said Andy has been more successful then Contador.

My only claim was that based on past performances anything but a hard fought victory by Contador in 2012 is quite unlikely. Something you've not even tried to respond to.

 

[BYOP88]

Brilliant comeback, I state facts and you respond with completely baseless rhetoric, thanks for letting me know there's no point in trying to have a discussion with you. I won't try to do so again.

You have a pop at some because they don't use "facts", seems you've made the mistake of your opionon= fact. Regarding your post prior to this one.

 

[Angliru]

It's a response that show's that Contador has been more successful then Andy, something I never denied. You said he would "tear the bros another a-hole". I responded by stating Contador wouldn't have such an easy time defeating Andy even if he was at his best. To which you responded by saying Contador has had more success then Andy in the past, once again not reacting to me but to a straw man you decided to replace me with who said Andy has been more successful then Contador.

My only claim was that based on past performances anything but a hard fought victory by Contador in 2012 is quite unlikely. Something you've not even tried to respond to.

You do realize that I did not say that he would "tear the bros another a-hole"?
I replied to that post by saying that I'd prefer it be Andy and not Frank because Frank tends be alot more humble.

Both of our "opinions" are just that. The truth will be on the road and that truth will not arrive at this year's Tour of course. Next year (if Contador is cleared) will be when we both will see what actually occurs. I'm confident Contador will continue to own Andy and you obviously believe the opposite.

You really chose to ignore the big grin after my post hoping your dream turns to a nightmare. That was meant in a relatively lighthearted way, thus the smiley.

 

[Ramira]

You have a pop at some because they don't use "facts", seems you've made the mistake of your opionon= fact. Regarding your post prior to this one.

No my opinion =/ fact. Prior performances do. Nothing in Contador's prior performances indicates he can destroy the Schlecks something I supported by quite a lot of data, but I guess when data doesn't support ones point of view it is turned into opinion. I'm thinking it's time for me to leave this thread because I have no interest in having a discussion with people who's response to my data is not to show their own data to prove me wrong but to attack me personally.

If you show me some data that show that Contador has ever taken more then 1-2 minutes on Schleck in the mountains or more then 2 minutes in a TT and I will gladly concede that he can destroy Andy. However based on the last 2 times both he and Andy rode the TDF and the amount of time he took on his contenders in the other GT's there is and has never been any indication he can do anything but beat Andy by going to his very limit. Which is very impressive indeed but very different from what many of the Contador fanboys claim he can do.

Then again I've a gone bit into some of your previous posts and you seem to hate Andy more than the devil himself so I guess none of this should have come as a surprise to me.

 

[BYOP88]

No my opinion =/ fact. Prior performances do. Nothing in Contador's prior performances indicates he can destroy the Schlecks something I supported by quite a lot of data, but I guess when data doesn't support ones point of view it is turned into opinion. I'm thinking it's time for me to leave this thread because I have no interest in having a discussion with people who's response to my data is not to show their own data to prove me wrong but to attack me personally.

If you show me some data that show that Contador has ever taken more then 1-2 minutes on Schleck in the mountains or more then 2 minutes in a TT and I will gladly concede that he can destroy Andy. However based on the last 2 times both he and Andy rode the TDF and the amount of time he took on his contenders in the other GT's there is and has never been any indication he can do anything but beat Andy by going to his very limit. Which is very impressive indeed but very different from what many of the Contador fanboys claim he can do.

No you said regarding the 09 TdF "....he took all but 1 minute and 5 seconds in the TTT and the ITT where Andy didn't really try.
"
Can/could you post the link where Andy said he didn't try in that ITT?

But as for Andy winning the Tour, I think he will just becasue the route is made for him regarding the lack of ITT's his big weakness, until the last copule of years there were normally 2 ITT(I looked at the TdF's from 1983-2010, I could've looked further back and found roughly the same thing regarding ITT's) with at least 1 being over 50km long(plus a prolouge and maybe a TTT too).

 

[Angliru]

Then again I've a gone bit into some of your previous posts and you seem to hate Andy more than the devil himself so I guess none of this should have come as a surprise to me.

Good that you've done your research! I don't hate the guy, I just find him annoying, arrogant and unwilling to take responsibility when he is often the cause of many of his mishaps. When he gets the results to match his ego I'll be surprised. He could take some tips from his brother on being good sport and respecting his opponents.

 

[Ramira]

You do realize that I did not say that he would "tear the bros another a-hole"?
I replied to that post by saying that I'd prefer it be Andy and not Frank because Frank tends be alot more humble.

Both of our "opinions" are just that. The truth will be on the road and that truth will not arrive at this year's Tour of course. Next year (if Contador is cleared) will be when we both will see what actually occurs. I'm confident Contador will continue to own Andy and you obviously believe the opposite.

You really chose to ignore the big grin after my post hoping your dream turns to a nightmare. That was meant in a relatively lighthearted way, thus the smiley.

Ok i'll admit I'm wrong, I guess I got swept away in my reaction going into "annoyed at internet posters" a bit to soon and I apologize for that. I wanted to start a discussion about how big the gap between Contador and Andy truly is (and yes while I believe Andy is very close to him I'll gladly admit until Andy beats him in a direct duel he will have the upper hand. Although I do believe if Andy wins this year he and Contador should be seen as about equals next year, with a small edge to Contador). And in my dissapointment with your response I both made the mistake misattributing a quote to you and of taking a post made in yest personal (I took the grin as something you clearly did not mean it to be).

Once again I apologize for snapping like that, and I guess next year we'll see who is right. While I do not claim to know for certain Andy will win it I do think he will seriously take the fight to Contador and it will be very exciting, I just hope the parcours will allow a true duel.

 

[Angliru]

No my opinion =/ fact. Prior performances do. Nothing in Contador's prior performances indicates he can destroy the Schlecks something I supported by quite a lot of data, but I guess when data doesn't support ones point of view it is turned into opinion. I'm thinking it's time for me to leave this thread because I have no interest in having a discussion with people who's response to my data is not to show their own data to prove me wrong but to attack me personally.

If you show me some data that show that Contador has ever taken more then 1-2 minutes on Schleck in the mountains or more then 2 minutes in a TT and I will gladly concede that he can destroy Andy. However based on the last 2 times both he and Andy rode the TDF and the amount of time he took on his contenders in the other GT's there is and has never been any indication he can do anything but beat Andy by going to his very limit. Which is very impressive indeed but very different from what many of the Contador fanboys claim he can do.

You use the word "fanboys" as if you're not one.

I am an unashamed Contador fan. Fanboy is an overused and insulting term and I apologize for implying that you are one. One can be a passionate supporter of the sport and of particular riders and still be objective. One can also be blinded by that passion and occasionally not think in a rational manner, that's what passion does.

Still Contador will be whispering "Who's your Daddy" in Andy's ear as he jets away from Andy's narrow behind up and down the peaks of France until his retirement.

 

[Ramira]

No you said regarding the 09 TdF "....he took all but 1 minute and 5 seconds in the TTT and the ITT where Andy didn't really try.
"
Can/could you post the link where Andy said he didn't try in that ITT?

True you're right that part was my personal interpretation of the way Andy seems to ride his TT's. But take out that one sentence and my argument still stands and so does the data I used to support it.