Doping - Cat 1 pack fodder to TDF winner?

[yakhillclimb]

Landis went from Tour De France contender to back of the pack domestic. This would suggest either A) EPO and growth hormones make you pretty freaking fast or b) Landis did not train very hard after getting banned

It seemed Hamilton couldn't finish anywhere near the top domestically without the juice on Rock Racing.

But in Creed's article today he says doping "isn’t rocket sauce, it doesn’t make you incredible"

It seems, it does make you incredible. How is it these guys can't finish in the top of a domestic race without the sauce but can win TDF stages and overalls with it?

I understand these guys took some time off from racing after their doping violations, but you would think they could produce some good results domestically without the juice.

Curious to hear people's opinions on how far the average Cat1 can go on EPO, growth hormones and unlimited budget for sauce.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I've heard that doping can get a rider an extra 3% increase in performance. Doesn't sound like much, but over 150+ KMs that small percentage could make all the difference. Then there's doping targeted at recovery, which could produce bigger gains than the 3%. I'll bet LeMond would claim the gains could be even bigger. I'd like to hear from someone like that on this.

 

[ChrisE]

I've heard that doping can get a rider an extra 3% increase in performance. Doesn't sound like much, but over 150+ KMs that small percentage could make all the difference. Then there's doping targeted at recovery, which could produce bigger gains than the 3%. I'll bet LeMond would claim the gains could be even bigger. I'd like to hear from someone like that on this.

Bwaaahahahahahah! You owe me a keyboard.

 

[The Hitch]

I've heard that doping can get a rider an extra 3%

Really? i heard it can be as high as 10 or even 15.

 

[Wallace]

 

[flicker]

It is curious to me why Hamilton and Landis did not do better on return from suspension. I wonder if Hamiltons 2nd pos was just a masking agent or an adjunct towards another undetected PED. Could it be that the riders Hamilton and Landis raced against here were juiced. Or did Landis lose his motivation? Was Hamilton on PEDs when he won the Chinese race?

 

[kurtinsc]

Couple of other things could be a factor.

1. Equipment. In some cases (especially TT's) not having top equipment could cause some impact on performance.

2. Motivation. If you had been at the front of the pack in the Tour de France, perhaps riding domestic criteriums are hard to "get up" for.

3. Training. Aside from the doping... having top notch trainers/dieticians/doctors probably help performance quite a bit. Wind tunnel testing would fit here too.

4. Age. It feels to me like doping is a "fountain of youth" of sorts... giving many riders the ability to keep at their top level of performance for a longer period, as well as raising that top level. Without the dope... perhaps they "feel their age" much more.

5. Profile. In some cases... if the course is largely flat then a "climber" who is a superior rider might not get to show it. I don't know if Lance in his prime would win many criteriums.

Just thoughts.

 

[Squares]

Can someone remind me what surgery Landis went through after his Tour win?

Also, I see someone posted a picture, but I'm quite sure that pack fodder doesn't win the US Pro Championship race as Hamilton did.

In the end, Juice or not, there has to be some talent, training, and desire or it just doesn't happen.

I honestly don't think Landis had the motivation to work his way back up to the competitive level even racing with clean riders. He probably would have ended up dropping out of any ProTour race he did because his mind didn't seem to be in it.

 

[flicker]

Can someone remind me what surgery Landis went through after his Tour win?

Also, I see someone posted a picture, but I'm quite sure that pack fodder doesn't win the US Pro Championship race as Hamilton did.

In the end, Juice or not, there has to be some talent, training, and desire or it just doesn't happen.

I honestly don't think Landis had the motivation to work his way back up to the competitive level even racing with clean riders. He probably would have ended up dropping out of any ProTour race he did because his mind didn't seem to be in it.

I think that it must be a let down from riding at top level and the spectators and bling of Europe. I was sorry not to see lANDIS PREFORM HERE. He seemed to be sleepwalking.. Hamilton just to old and undoped isn't that good anymore. My guess is the China race and the nats. he was doped.

 

[hrotha]

For what it's worth, and unless I'm mistaken, Landis claims he was clean when he was 2nd in the 2002 Dauphiné, so if that's true it's obvious the guy has talent.

 

[poupou]

EPO effect on performance :


from http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

 

[Merckx index]

Floyd had knee replacement surgery, and that seems to have been forgotten by many in evaluating his performance. We really don't know how well he would have done if he had not tested positive and had ridden in 2007 business as usual. This is really uncharted territory for a bike racer. Floyd probably knows, but hasn't commented as far as I know.

The only rider I know who has done about as well post-suspension as pre-suspension, at least recently, is Vino. He sure looks like the old Vino to me. Even Basso, though winning the Giro this year, did not do it as impressively as in 2006, and of course he was a non-factor in the Tour even before health problems.

 

[flicker]

EPO effect on performance :


from http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

I was watching the 2006 Giro and these guys were running 185-190 heartbeats per minute on the big climbs. Is that normal? Undoped?
Also yes I think Hamilton and Floyd could ride the Tour without dope. Very talented. Now they are old and unmotivated. They were always above cat.1

 

[Wallace]

Also, I see someone posted a picture, but I'm quite sure that pack fodder doesn't win the US Pro Championship race as Hamilton did.

That was my point.

 

[Merckx index]

EPO effect on performance :


from http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

From the linked article:

"I saw an interview with Pat McQuaide [sic] on BBC recently (HardTalk), where he denied that cycling had a problem with doping."

Nice to know that some things never change.

 

[The Hitch]

From the linked article:

"I saw an interview with Pat McQuaide [sic] on BBC recently (HardTalk), where he denied that cycling had a problem with doping."

Nice to know that some things never change.

Interesting interview. would like to see it. Do you have a link ?

Thanks.

 

[Mainerider]

Floyd had knee replacement surgery, and that seems to have been forgotten by many in evaluating his performance. We really don't know how well he would have done if he had not tested positive and had ridden in 2007 business as usual. This is really uncharted territory for a bike racer. Floyd probably knows, but hasn't commented as far as I know.

The only rider I know who has done about as well post-suspension as pre-suspension, at least recently, is Vino. He sure looks like the old Vino to me. Even Basso, though winning the Giro this year, did not do it as impressively as in 2006, and of course he was a non-factor in the Tour even before health problems.

Pretty sure it was a hip replacement, not a knee. It would be hard to believe that it wouldn't have negatively impacted his performance.

 

[Oldman]

Floyd had knee replacement surgery, and that seems to have been forgotten by many in evaluating his performance. We really don't know how well he would have done if he had not tested positive and had ridden in 2007 business as usual. This is really uncharted territory for a bike racer. Floyd probably knows, but hasn't commented as far as I know.

The only rider I know who has done about as well post-suspension as pre-suspension, at least recently, is Vino. He sure looks like the old Vino to me. Even Basso, though winning the Giro this year, did not do it as impressively as in 2006, and of course he was a non-factor in the Tour even before health problems.

Floyd had a much more dramatic HIP replacement. Very few people return to maximum performance after that.

Floyd had serious power and talent previous to his ProTour excursion but he, like many; needed to maintain the arms race to sustain their place in the pack (I think that's how the Old Guard used to justify PEDs). As for US Continental riders; there is much gas to be had stateside and it is only slightly easier to compete at the top level here as Europe. See Michael Creed's experience as a naturally gifted rider, competing with less naturally competition.

 

[PDXWheels]

400ftp/75kg = 5.333333 w/kg = Pro
360ftp/79kg = 4.5 w/kg = maybe Cat 2

10% Power here and 4kg there can make a huge difference in performance. There are a lot of factors that would cause performance to decline. Probably the most obvious is having to worry about how you're going to pay rent and feed your family rather than being on a stable team.

Yes he's a bit heavy, no he hasn't had good training, yes fitness can drop that far that fast.

As far as EPO goes, some say it's worth 20%. Let's say 15%

460ftp/75kg = 6.13w/kg threshold, now you're getting somewhere. Let's drop another 2kg.

460ftp/73kg = 6.3w/kg and we have our man on the podium.

 

[Merckx index]

Floyd had a much more dramatic HIP replacement. Very few people return to maximum performance after that.

Ah, sorry, I got that wrong. I thought it sounded funny when I was writing it. I just remember he rode that Tour with a hip (not knee) joint that was seriously degenerated from an earlier fall. He had to adopt a special posture while TTng because of the pain, as I recall.

 

[acoggan]

Floyd had a much more dramatic HIP replacement. Very few people return to maximum performance after that.

Hip resurfacing, actually, which isn't quite as traumatic as a full hip replacement. Still, it could have contributed to his inability to return to his former level of performance (and in fact, I was half-hoping that he would, or at least something close to it, as I'm probably facing the same surgery at one point or another).

 

[acoggan]

Landis in Creed's article today he says doping "isn’t rocket sauce, it doesn’t make you incredible"

I think that there was an "if" missing from that quote (which was stated as a question), i.e., Creed was speaking in hypotheticals to explain his decision to not dope.

Full disclosure: I've met Mike and his wife, and at one point spent an hour at the OTC bending their ears when they asked for my take on pursuiting...

 

[acoggan]

I was watching the 2006 Giro and these guys were running 185-190 heartbeats per minute on the big climbs. Is that normal? Undoped?

Absolutely, or at least it is if your maximal heart rate is high enough.

 

[Merckx index]

As far as EPO goes, some say it's worth 20%. Let's say 15%

The linked article cites a study that found 13%, but this was with non-elite riders. They suggest for elite riders, the effect would probably be smaller. Actually, I don't know about that. Even elite riders may have natural HTs similar to those of ordinary people (I believe LA's natural HT is in the low 40s, which would make it like mine), so they have potentially just as much to gain in terms of red blood cell increase. It might be that other, freak aspects of their metabolism would make them unable to gain as much power from this equal increase in oxygen transport, but that seems speculative to me.

However, I don't know if the subjects in that study had HTs increase to over 50%. If they did, then they could have had greater benefits than a Pro rider who was regularly being tested.

 

[flicker]

Absolutely, or at least it is if your maximal heart rate is high enough.

Thanks. EPO doesn't make the Heart rate capable of higher numbers than.