Doping in boxing

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Old School

Old School

Mar 12, 2010
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Poursuivant said:
How is Conte allowed to work in any sport?
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He served some time in the Big House...so I guess he's free to legally work. :eek:

I do agree, he should be banned for life, but it's a new thing, catching the chemists, so the governing bodies probably don't know how to deal with it. Especially in his case, legally, it WASN'T illegal when he was in business at the beginning...I don't think. The push to criminilize 'roids is only new in the last 10 years.

PLUS, it makes money for the big dawg. Look at how Major League Baseball was floundering, up stepped the incredible HomeRun record chase...it packed the stadiums! It brought the fans back from the strike that had ended MLB's popularity.

Money talks.:p
 
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ludwig

Jun 27, 2009
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gooner said:
Its good to see other sports being flagged up in regards to doping.

Paulie malignaggi the fighter who lost to hatton and khan said that pacquiao is on performing enhancing drugs. Also bj penn the fighter in the UFC said it is rife in mixed martial arts and he accusses the likes of georges st pierre.

What gets under my skin is that cycling is always implicated and other sports get away with murder and dont get a lot of media coverage with regards to this.
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Boxing is arguably the most corrupt sport there is--doping (which is probably universal at the top level) is just a small part of that corruption.

But it is also a sublime beautiful sport when its done right.

There is dope testing in boxing and occasionally offenders are busted. But there is a class system just like any other sport where the boxers with the top trainers and promoters no doubt have access to the most modern methods of performance enhancement.

More urgently than any other sport, boxing needs a total reformation. It needs to eject the corrupt greedy promoters like King, Arum, etc. Hell, boxers don't even have health insurance! They need a league/team structure where boxers have some built-in protection when career-threatening injuries occur. A league/team structure would also provide more incentive to make good matches that the fans want to see, instead of rigged matches to line the pockets of greedy mafioso thugs that we have now.
 
M

Merckx index

Jul 27, 2010
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ludwig said:
More urgently than any other sport, boxing needs a total reformation. It needs to eject the corrupt greedy promoters like King, Arum, etc. Hell, boxers don't even have health insurance! They need a league/team structure where boxers have some built-in protection when career-threatening injuries occur. A league/team structure would also provide more incentive to make good matches that the fans want to see, instead of rigged matches to line the pockets of greedy mafioso thugs that we have now.
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Hear, hear. A team/league type of structure might also give the organizations teeth to discipline fighters. When Floyd released a racist video a year ago taunting Manny, nothing happened to him, except a little public pressure which induced him to issue a weak apology. If a MLB or NFL or NBA player had done this, he would have been suspended and maybe required to take sensitivity training (anyone remember John Rocker?).

Under the current system, an elite boxer like Mayweather is a law unto himself. He can fight anyone he wants, say anything he wants, do anything he wants. He has multiple legal charges pending against him, assaulting the mother of his kids for God's sake, yet continues on, business as usual. Everyone is afraid to challenge his out-of-the-ring antics, because they don't want to jeopardize their position in the gravy train. While I agree with Alpe that he deserves a little credit for demanding Olympic style testing, I'm cynical enough to believe he did it mostly to get into Manny's head, maybe even to avoid fighting him--and because he presumably knows how to avoid a positive under those conditions, while his opponents might not. It's telling that he never suggested this kind of testing until negotiations with Pac began.

And as you say, one of the worst aspects of the current system is that there is no mechanism for ensuring that the best fighters meet in the ring. In every other pro sport, there is a championship set up by fixed rules. We all know the "best team" doesn't always win the WS or SB, but since the rules govern everyone fairly, everyone accepts them.

But to be fair, the fact that fighters at the elite level have only 2-4 matches a year does make it harder to emulate the championships of other sports. I thought the Super Six Tournament, finally about to conclude next week, was a great idea, guaranteeing every fighter one or more title fights against the best competition (though not having Bute in it was unfortunate). But three of the original six dropped out before the end of the tournament, and there were numerous delays because of injuries. I think boxing needs a mix of tournaments like these--to give up and coming fighters a chance to meet the best--along with some good old-fashioned arranged fights (Mayweather-Pacquiao, because everyone agrees they are the best, and should not have to go through a tournament before meeting each other).
 
Old School

Old School

Mar 12, 2010
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Merckx index said:
While I agree with Alpe that he deserves a little credit for demanding Olympic style testing, I'm cynical enough to believe he did it mostly to get into Manny's head, maybe even to avoid fighting him--and because he presumably knows how to avoid a positive under those conditions, while his opponents might not. It's telling that he never suggested this kind of testing until negotiations with Pac began.
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Yes, Floyd's mouth is loaded with foolishness, true, but to say he asked for the drug testing was to get in pac's head is far fetched. Was it wrong for him to demand Sugar Mosley to agree to the drug testing, being that Sugar admittedly was part of the Balco crew?

Long story short, do you remember Micheal Moorer? He was SECOND in pac's corner at one point, training along side Roach....where did he go? :confused: He was bounced from the team because he was going to expose pac for taking "breaks" during training to go into a back room at the gym...juicing up no doubt...he told Floyd's father, which is how the whole thing got started.

Moorer was the one time Heavy Weight Champ....during the Lennox Lewis time period. BTW, going to the Khan/Peterson fight in DC this Saturday. I'm psyched!
 
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T_S_A_R

May 31, 2011
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victor conte owned company to drug test victor conte trained fighter.

Another twist in the Berto-Ortiz rematch is the fact that the newly-founded VADA (Voluntary Anti-Doping Agency) has been approved to test both fighters. VADA is the brainchild of BALCO founder Victor Conte and Dr. Margaret Goodman, and the 28-year old sees it as nothing but a plus.

“I think it’s a great situation,” Berto stated. “Because, of course, I know for a fact that performance-enhancing drugs are rampant in the sport. To involve a company like VADA, you won’t have to come out of pocket to have the drug tests done. It will clean up our sport a little bit.”
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http://www.examiner.com/boxing-in-las-vegas/andre-berto-s-revelations-victor-ortiz-is-stupid-and-peds-run-rampant-boxing

this is ridiculous!
 
Poursuivant

Poursuivant

Jun 7, 2011
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Merckx index

Jul 27, 2010
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Peterson is claiming that he took testosterone as part of a therapeutic program, but forgot to get a TUE. LA could have helped him get one back-dated, would have avoided this whole mess.

I hadn’t thought of it in this way, but a doping positive in boxing has much worse implications than one in sports like cycling. It isn’t just the athlete who gets suspended. If the positive happens before a scheduled fight of his, as is the case with Peterson, everyone with a monetary stake in that fight gets burned. It's particularly bad for Khan, because he lost to Peterson before and needed to beat him in a rematch to get his career back on track. A win over Peterson would give him a shot at a fight with Mayweather, which would be the payday of his career. Assuming there isn't some way to make this problem go away (and there may be, stay tuned), Khan will have to find a last-minute substitute, who definitely will not be of the quality that will add to his resume.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/boxing...volved.html;_ylt=AiuYJqyDLybOHflUa3EgHUiUxLYF

The issue, though, is that there is no way to prevent against a financial loss when a positive test forces cancellation of a card. No one wants a chemically enhanced fighter who could seriously injure an opponent to compete. But with no way to adequately insure, dozens of parties can and will be out thousands, in some cases millions, of dollars when a fighter fails a test and a card is cancelled.
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"The thing is, you don't need [event-cancellation] insurance if it's a team sport. If you lose the quarterback, the game goes on. Even in tennis, if you lose the big star, the rest of the event goes on. But in boxing and in UFC, where it is one-on-one and the event rests on one guy, [a positive test] is catastrophic."
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But there’s a very simple solution to this problem. Treat a positive test the same way you treat not making weight. The fight goes on, but the doper forfeits the title. If he wins the fight, the title becomes vacant.

The only argument against this, as one of the above quotes indicates, seems to be the fear that a doped fighter in the ring is too dangerous. This strikes me as a little ridiculous, for many reasons:

1) most fighters are probably juiced and getting away with it, anyway
2) a fighter who comes in over the weight limit is potentially just as dangerous as a doped fighter, but no one worries about that. When Mayweather fought Marquez, he came in over the agreed on catch-weight. Since it was a non-title fight, it didn't affect any titles, but by prior agreement, Mayweather had to pay Marquez something like I think $600,000 because of this. You could do the same with a doped fighter. He would have to pay the other guy a portion of his previously agreed-on share. This could be thought of as hazard insurance!
3) there are innumerable fights where one of the fighters is much better than the other (think of Tyson in his early years) and again, no one worries about the safety of the lesser fighter--at least not to the extent that the match is cancelled
4) the referee and the cornermen have the responsibility of stopping the fight if they think one of the fighters is in danger of serious injury

It doesn’t take a lot of knowledge of sport and money to see what the real problem with the current situation is. Given the amount of money at stake, there is tremendous pressure to cover up a positive that would result in all this money lost. Suppose the Mayweather-Pacquiao superfight were finally made, and one of the fighters (I think it would be delicious if both of them) tested positive. With maybe $200 million on the table (the linked article suggests $10 million, but that is just the investment of all the parties involved; the actual loss is the projectied total revenue from the fight), how likely is it that the positive would ever come to light?
 
Epicycle

Epicycle

Mar 19, 2009
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I heard an interview with Conte a few days ago, and he said at one point they had an extra gallon of The Clear, so they sold it to Bob Sapp. At the time, Sapp was still involved in football (he went on to become an MMA fighter) and Sapp sold doses of The Clear to a large number of NFL players - a little Clear went a long way.
 
Briant_Gumble

Briant_Gumble

Aug 18, 2012
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gooner said:
The Lamont Petersen and Amir Khan rematch on May 19 is in doubt after Peterson tested positive for synthetic testosterone. I was really looking forward to this fight as the first one was a brilliant fight. :(

http://www1.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/7739089/Khan-s-Peterson-rematch-doubt

And only last week Mayweather once again accused Pacquiao of PED use.
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To be honest I think testing for synthetic testosterone is HUGE. Generally Olympic style drug testing determines the testosterone : epitestosterone ratio which can be easily altered and naturally varies way less than the test allows for.

Testing for synthetic testosterone using the carbon Isotope ratio test is massive.

That said I don't entirely trust VADA.
 
Ryo Hazuki

Ryo Hazuki

Mar 31, 2010
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Epicycle said:
I heard an interview with Conte a few days ago, and he said at one point they had an extra gallon of The Clear, so they sold it to Bob Sapp. At the time, Sapp was still involved in football (he went on to become an MMA fighter) and Sapp sold doses of The Clear to a large number of NFL players - a little Clear went a long way.
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showing you that doping means nothing for dumb turds like bob sapp
 
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Agravaine

Sep 14, 2011
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Good overview of the state of boxing & PED's

Thomas Hauser article: http://www.maxboxing.com/news/main-lead/the-ped-mess-part-one

It's interesting that Floyd Mayweather and Andre Berto both requested drug testing then returned suspicious results. (to be fair, I suspect Manny Pacquiao & Victor Ortiz more).

Something not in that article was Mayweather wanted blood testing up to 14 days before the fight, while Pacquiao wanted to stop at 21 days. Both claimed they didn't want to lose the blood for the test, but have to wonder if they were advised about different glow times or something like that. (too much Clinic reading makes me paranoid!)
 
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Merckx index

Jul 27, 2010
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Agravaine said:
Thomas Hauser article: http://www.maxboxing.com/news/main-lead/the-ped-mess-part-one

It's interesting that Floyd Mayweather and Andre Berto both requested drug testing then returned suspicious results. (to be fair, I suspect Manny Pacquiao & Victor Ortiz more).

Something not in that article was Mayweather wanted blood testing up to 14 days before the fight, while Pacquiao wanted to stop at 21 days. Both claimed they didn't want to lose the blood for the test, but have to wonder if they were advised about different glow times or something like that. (too much Clinic reading makes me paranoid!)
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Great link (and more to come!), thanks much.

I completely share your suspicions of Manny. Really, there's no reason to think any elite fighter is clean. And I don't think the glow time theory is unreasonable at all. I always thought the reason Floyd demanded testing (besides to get inside Manny's head) was because he knew exactly the limits of the anti-doping paradigm he could beat, and figured it might catch Manny (or, as happened in the end, cause Manny to balk at making a fight).

I think a while back someone posted in this thread or another one a link to a story of a former trainer (or sparring partner?) in the Pac camp who had direct information about doping, and was released while basically having his reputation undercut. Can't remember his name. Shades of Prentice Steffens or Emma O'Reilly.

Very interesting indeed that Floyd apparently tested positive, and that it was covered up. That is shades of LA. If it came to that, of course, Floyd could easily pay off the right people to dismiss a positive. But not really necessary, because (as one can easily learn reading between the lines of the article) a boxer like Floyd is such a money train for so many people that no one wants him to be caught.

It's an interesting contrast to cycling. As discussed here endlessly, the UCI might well have a vested interest in LA not testing positive. But his rivals would not, just as LA himself would have an interest in his rivals testing positive. But in boxing, even FM's rivals would not want him to test positive, because anyone who gets to fight him of course makes far more money than he would fighting anyone else. So I think it's fair to say that the incentives for covering up positives are even greater in boxing than in cycling.
 
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fuzzydunlop3

Jan 29, 2013
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Cyivel said:
Mickey Bey just failed a test with a T/E Ratio > 30:1:eek:
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holy smokes that's high. how do you all feel about VADA? and is the new Victor Conte genuine? on the surface it looks great and I really want to believe in a fighter like Nonito Donaire, but I don't know enough about VADA.
 
dolophonic

dolophonic

Mar 11, 2009
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Old School said:
Yes, Floyd's mouth is loaded with foolishness, true, but to say he asked for the drug testing was to get in pac's head is far fetched. Was it wrong for him to demand Sugar Mosley to agree to the drug testing, being that Sugar admittedly was part of the Balco crew?

Long story short, do you remember Micheal Moorer? He was SECOND in pac's corner at one point, training along side Roach....where did he go? :confused: He was bounced from the team because he was going to expose pac for taking "breaks" during training to go into a back room at the gym...juicing up no doubt...he told Floyd's father, which is how the whole thing got started.

Moorer was the one time Heavy Weight Champ....during the Lennox Lewis time period. BTW, going to the Khan/Peterson fight in DC this Saturday. I'm psyched!
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Nice .. that should be a good fight.. enjoy.
 
Briant_Gumble

Briant_Gumble

Aug 18, 2012
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Seems an extremely severe fine, I'm surprised people would agree to the commission doing that. Is it going to charity?

The NSAC are thoroughly corrupt and incompetent.

Not that I approve of weed or anything, the guy has got to be dumb to take that hit for weed, it's not like it would impact the fight or anything (though he might think he needed it for stress relief).
 
Zam_Olyas

Zam_Olyas

Sep 30, 2011
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Briant_Gumble said:
Seems an extremely severe fine, I'm surprised people would agree to the commission doing that. Is it going to charity?

The NSAC are thoroughly corrupt and incompetent.

Not that I approve of weed or anything, the guy has got to be dumb to take that hit for weed, it's not like it would impact the fight or anything (though he might think he needed it for stress relief).
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What is wrong with weed?:confused: :p
 
Briant_Gumble

Briant_Gumble

Aug 18, 2012
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Zam_Olyas said:
What is wrong with weed?:confused: :p
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I've known people who take it to show symptoms of Schizophrenia, not full blown Schizophrenia but slightly disturbed, dont know if they'd be like that anywayg.I'm not against genuine medical marijuana but I'm too clued on it.
 
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