- Jul 10, 2012
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Re: Re:
As always, the relativity of the media coverage to the sports profile is what people question.
Soccer is in the headlines & News programs every day, Rugby is more a weekly bulletin, Swimming only registers in the media in Olympic years.
I'd agree with you about the the number of Rugby related drugs stories; there's definitely been an uptick, but so far it's been confined to the 3rd tier of players, & so far hasn't come close to the level of player that the general public has actually heard of.
Catwhoorg said:
As always, the relativity of the media coverage to the sports profile is what people question.
Soccer is in the headlines & News programs every day, Rugby is more a weekly bulletin, Swimming only registers in the media in Olympic years.
I'd agree with you about the the number of Rugby related drugs stories; there's definitely been an uptick, but so far it's been confined to the 3rd tier of players, & so far hasn't come close to the level of player that the general public has actually heard of.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/16/rugby-drug-programme-sport-anti-doping
Here are the words of Union's head of anti doping.
Here are the words of Union's head of anti doping.
- Aug 24, 2011
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********.
Pure unadulterated ********, trying to project "the brand"
I was in a conversation yesterday, and commented that rugby is every bit as dirty nowas cycling was in the Lance era.
The same failing to admit there is a problem is just going to prolong the pain.
Pure unadulterated ********, trying to project "the brand"
I was in a conversation yesterday, and commented that rugby is every bit as dirty nowas cycling was in the Lance era.
The same failing to admit there is a problem is just going to prolong the pain.
- Jul 18, 2010
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The UFC have hired USADA to run their anti-PEDs programme, but I rather doubt they yet have realised what a nest of snakes they have walked into. Just today it came to light that Vitor Belfort, one of Dana White's most favoured ones, was popped for Test in an OOC administered in Nevada prior to his LHW title fight against Jon 'Bones' Jones at UFC 152 (22 September 2012, Toronto, Ontario). The UFC swept the result under the rug and the fight went ahead as scheduled.
A rumour of the positive surfaced briefly some time after the fight, but the UFC squashed it by claiming Belfort then had a TUE for TRT (at the time, NSAC still was honouring TUEs for TRT). Just today news has broken that someone in the UFC accidentally emailed the truth of the events to a number of UFC fighters and their staff. According to this email, if there ever was a TUE, it was only one issued by the UFC, and otherwise kept secret. The UFC failed to inform either the Ontario sports authority or Belfort's opponent, either of the TUE or of the failed OOC (but Belfort lost the fight by submission in the 4° round in any case). Then a subsequent email to the same individuals threatened legal action against anyone who went public with the earlier message's details. But someone obviously did just that.
Significantly, UFC 151 was cancelled because Jon Jones refused to defend his title against Chael Sonnen, who was offered as a short-notice substitute after his originally-scheduled opponent, Dan Henderson, withdrew due to an injury. So there would have been significant financial pressure on White and the UFC to make certain UFC 152 came off regardless.
Which perhaps offers insight as to why Belfort was not sanctioned for another positive for Test early in 2014, when Vitor initially was picked to replace Wanderlei Silva, Silva having been suspended for dodging an OOC prior to the Silva-Sonnen fight scheduled for UFC 173 (24 May 2014, Las Vegas). Belfort would have been seen by UFC management as "going the extra yard" by agreeing to fill in on the fight card on short notice, and the UFC already had been making a habit of looking the other way on his behalf. And Belfort's knowledge of the details surrounding his 2012 Test positive, and the UFC's complicity in the cover-up, might have given him a certain 'leverage' against any punitive action.
Belfort claimed the 2014 positive was the result of his dabbling with returning to TRT, and he produced three independently-administered blood tests subsequent to the positive, all showing "normal" (for him) Test levels as evidence he was clean (although one of the three, the only one showing an Hct measurement, did show a redacted abnormal Hct level, possibly indicating EPO use).
When Sonnen also tested positive for PEDs prior to UFC 173, the Sonnen-Silva fight, which had become Sonnen-Belfort, was altogether scrapped. But not only was Belfort never called to task by NSAC for his 2014 positive, rather than sanctioning him, the UFC gave Belfort a middleweight title shot against Chris Weidman at UFC 175 (5 July 2015, las Vegas).
A revealing glimpse into the mess the USADA are tasked with cleaning up.
A rumour of the positive surfaced briefly some time after the fight, but the UFC squashed it by claiming Belfort then had a TUE for TRT (at the time, NSAC still was honouring TUEs for TRT). Just today news has broken that someone in the UFC accidentally emailed the truth of the events to a number of UFC fighters and their staff. According to this email, if there ever was a TUE, it was only one issued by the UFC, and otherwise kept secret. The UFC failed to inform either the Ontario sports authority or Belfort's opponent, either of the TUE or of the failed OOC (but Belfort lost the fight by submission in the 4° round in any case). Then a subsequent email to the same individuals threatened legal action against anyone who went public with the earlier message's details. But someone obviously did just that.
Significantly, UFC 151 was cancelled because Jon Jones refused to defend his title against Chael Sonnen, who was offered as a short-notice substitute after his originally-scheduled opponent, Dan Henderson, withdrew due to an injury. So there would have been significant financial pressure on White and the UFC to make certain UFC 152 came off regardless.
Which perhaps offers insight as to why Belfort was not sanctioned for another positive for Test early in 2014, when Vitor initially was picked to replace Wanderlei Silva, Silva having been suspended for dodging an OOC prior to the Silva-Sonnen fight scheduled for UFC 173 (24 May 2014, Las Vegas). Belfort would have been seen by UFC management as "going the extra yard" by agreeing to fill in on the fight card on short notice, and the UFC already had been making a habit of looking the other way on his behalf. And Belfort's knowledge of the details surrounding his 2012 Test positive, and the UFC's complicity in the cover-up, might have given him a certain 'leverage' against any punitive action.
Belfort claimed the 2014 positive was the result of his dabbling with returning to TRT, and he produced three independently-administered blood tests subsequent to the positive, all showing "normal" (for him) Test levels as evidence he was clean (although one of the three, the only one showing an Hct measurement, did show a redacted abnormal Hct level, possibly indicating EPO use).
When Sonnen also tested positive for PEDs prior to UFC 173, the Sonnen-Silva fight, which had become Sonnen-Belfort, was altogether scrapped. But not only was Belfort never called to task by NSAC for his 2014 positive, rather than sanctioning him, the UFC gave Belfort a middleweight title shot against Chris Weidman at UFC 175 (5 July 2015, las Vegas).
A revealing glimpse into the mess the USADA are tasked with cleaning up.
- Sep 29, 2012
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- Jul 18, 2010
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it looks like this could have legs. From The Bleacher Report:
...[A] lengthy report from veteran MMA writer Josh Gross published by Deadspin on Monday alleges the organization allowed Vitor Belfort to fight for its light heavyweight title at UFC 152 in September 2012 despite a “sketchy” drug test showing Belfort was over the legal limit for testosterone three weeks before the bout.
If true, it amounts to fairly damning evidence on two fronts.
First, as the third drug failure of Belfort's career to come to light—the fighter also flunked performance-enhancing drugs tests in Nevada in 2006 and 2014—it adds to the widespread picture of him as one of the sport’s most notorious and brazen drug cheats.
Second, it severely undermines the UFC’s longstanding claims that after approving Belfort a therapeutic use exemption for TRT, it carefully monitored him to make sure he wasn’t gaining an unfair advantage.
Here’s the crux of it in Gross’ own words:
"Belfort’s peers have long viewed the Brazilian as a doper. That perception is reinforced by the facts, which include not only the well-known public record, but [this] previously unreported incident in 2012 in which the UFC mistakenly emailed out results of a Belfort blood test to a group of 29 fighters, managers, and trainers three weeks ahead of his late-notice challenge for Jon Jones’ light-heavyweight title, which took place three years ago this week.
"Those results indicated that Belfort had higher than allowable levels of testosterone in his system, and that—at minimum—red flags should have been raised inside the UFC, which became aware of the information as it regrouped from the recent cancellation of UFC 151."...
...What we know for sure is that just a month prior to UFC 152, the fight company had been forced to entirely cancel an event for the first time in its history. UFC 151 and its intended main event of Jones vs. Dan Henderson fell by the wayside after Henderson was injured and Jones refused to accept Chael Sonnen as a replacement on short notice.
The fight company named Belfort as Jones’ UFC 152 opponent in the same press release it announced UFC 151’s cancellation. That release was dated August 23—one week before Belfort took the test Gross writes revealed elevated testosterone.
You want to talk about headaches? It’s pretty easy to speculate our way into a few here: The high-profile humiliation of canceling UFC 151 and a hastily made fight between Jones and Belfort. A week later Belfort takes his test and the UFC gets the results just 18 days before UFC 152 is supposed to go down.
If—and we say again, if—the above timeline resulted in the UFC electing to keep Belfort’s abnormal test results private and allowing him to fight Jones anyway, well, we would understand, wouldn’t we?
You can also see why White would eventually appear so relieved to see TRT brushed off the table completely.
But such a scenario would only underscore the need for quality, third-party drug testing in MMA. It would, in fact, be sort of a textbook example for why fight promoters can’t be responsible for doing their own testing.
Another thing we know for sure is that White remained indignant throughout Belfort’s TRT-fueled rise through the 185-pound division. He was always adamant the UFC was keeping close tabs on Belfort's testosterone use, that he was not using the TUE the company granted him as a cover to legally use performance enhancers.
"Vitor Belfort has not been abusing TRT,” White said in November 2013, via MMA Mania’s Matt Roth. “In a million f---ing years I would never let that happen—ever."
Yet Gross’ story raises valid questions about whether that’s exactly what White and the UFC allowed to happen....
Complete story at The Bleacher Report-dot-Com
Belfort's total Test in the 2012 failure was 1038, which is quite high but not impossibly so. His free Test, OTOH, was 41.7. To put that in terms cyclists are more familiar with, a 41.7 FreeT is roughly parallel to a hematocrit of 70. Absolutely not possible without pharmaceutical assistance, and clearly beyond 'medically theraputic' levels. Textbook PEDs abuse . We're talking Arnold Schwarzenegger/Sergio Oliva levels.
...[A] lengthy report from veteran MMA writer Josh Gross published by Deadspin on Monday alleges the organization allowed Vitor Belfort to fight for its light heavyweight title at UFC 152 in September 2012 despite a “sketchy” drug test showing Belfort was over the legal limit for testosterone three weeks before the bout.
If true, it amounts to fairly damning evidence on two fronts.
First, as the third drug failure of Belfort's career to come to light—the fighter also flunked performance-enhancing drugs tests in Nevada in 2006 and 2014—it adds to the widespread picture of him as one of the sport’s most notorious and brazen drug cheats.
Second, it severely undermines the UFC’s longstanding claims that after approving Belfort a therapeutic use exemption for TRT, it carefully monitored him to make sure he wasn’t gaining an unfair advantage.
Here’s the crux of it in Gross’ own words:
"Belfort’s peers have long viewed the Brazilian as a doper. That perception is reinforced by the facts, which include not only the well-known public record, but [this] previously unreported incident in 2012 in which the UFC mistakenly emailed out results of a Belfort blood test to a group of 29 fighters, managers, and trainers three weeks ahead of his late-notice challenge for Jon Jones’ light-heavyweight title, which took place three years ago this week.
"Those results indicated that Belfort had higher than allowable levels of testosterone in his system, and that—at minimum—red flags should have been raised inside the UFC, which became aware of the information as it regrouped from the recent cancellation of UFC 151."...
...What we know for sure is that just a month prior to UFC 152, the fight company had been forced to entirely cancel an event for the first time in its history. UFC 151 and its intended main event of Jones vs. Dan Henderson fell by the wayside after Henderson was injured and Jones refused to accept Chael Sonnen as a replacement on short notice.
The fight company named Belfort as Jones’ UFC 152 opponent in the same press release it announced UFC 151’s cancellation. That release was dated August 23—one week before Belfort took the test Gross writes revealed elevated testosterone.
You want to talk about headaches? It’s pretty easy to speculate our way into a few here: The high-profile humiliation of canceling UFC 151 and a hastily made fight between Jones and Belfort. A week later Belfort takes his test and the UFC gets the results just 18 days before UFC 152 is supposed to go down.
If—and we say again, if—the above timeline resulted in the UFC electing to keep Belfort’s abnormal test results private and allowing him to fight Jones anyway, well, we would understand, wouldn’t we?
You can also see why White would eventually appear so relieved to see TRT brushed off the table completely.
But such a scenario would only underscore the need for quality, third-party drug testing in MMA. It would, in fact, be sort of a textbook example for why fight promoters can’t be responsible for doing their own testing.
Another thing we know for sure is that White remained indignant throughout Belfort’s TRT-fueled rise through the 185-pound division. He was always adamant the UFC was keeping close tabs on Belfort's testosterone use, that he was not using the TUE the company granted him as a cover to legally use performance enhancers.
"Vitor Belfort has not been abusing TRT,” White said in November 2013, via MMA Mania’s Matt Roth. “In a million f---ing years I would never let that happen—ever."
Yet Gross’ story raises valid questions about whether that’s exactly what White and the UFC allowed to happen....
Complete story at The Bleacher Report-dot-Com
Belfort's total Test in the 2012 failure was 1038, which is quite high but not impossibly so. His free Test, OTOH, was 41.7. To put that in terms cyclists are more familiar with, a 41.7 FreeT is roughly parallel to a hematocrit of 70. Absolutely not possible without pharmaceutical assistance, and clearly beyond 'medically theraputic' levels. Textbook PEDs abuse . We're talking Arnold Schwarzenegger/Sergio Oliva levels.
- Jul 10, 2010
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Matt Slater annoys the living daylights out of me with his pap nonsense about cycling but I thought this about the best thing I have read from him on Rugby's problems. At long last touching on abuse of PEDs amongst school age wannabies. 1 in 10 via what means ? An estimate that is grossly under-reporting the problem. With no testing in place and the school kids easily working out size matters, many will do exactly what it takes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34314851
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34314851
- Sep 29, 2012
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- Sep 29, 2012
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Re:
I didn't post it but some 17 year old kid wanting to be the next "The Rock" died when his aorta ruptured. He was 7'2" with a 680g heart, apparently. 4 different types of steroids in his bedroom.
Farrrrk.
Catwhoorg said:
I didn't post it but some 17 year old kid wanting to be the next "The Rock" died when his aorta ruptured. He was 7'2" with a 680g heart, apparently. 4 different types of steroids in his bedroom.
Farrrrk.
- Sep 8, 2009
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- May 16, 2015
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Re: Re:
J*sus wept.
This, sadly, is what will being down the willingness of organisers/promoters to turn a blind eye to doping. Maybe, just maybe, if the corruption in one sport was opened up, some of the others might go too?
Dear Wiggo said:
J*sus wept.
This, sadly, is what will being down the willingness of organisers/promoters to turn a blind eye to doping. Maybe, just maybe, if the corruption in one sport was opened up, some of the others might go too?
- Jul 18, 2010
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I posted in this thread on 30 April that MMA fighter Jon 'Bones' Jones had been stripped of his LHW title by the UFC and suspended indefinitely owing to his involvement in a hit-and-run motor accident. Besides the H&R (he crashed into a pregnant woman and broke her arm), when police searched the rental car he'd fled, they found marijuana and marijuana paraphernalia. And prior to that, Jones had tested positive for cocaine in an OOC, but that was ruled unprosecutable by NSAC because the WADA standard does not test for recreational drugs OOC. And the fact he fled the scene of the (H&R) accident points to the possibility he was under the influence (of something) at the time and fled to avoid additional intoxication charges, waiting to turn himself in once he had sobered up.
Today he plead guilty to the H&R, and was sentenced to "up to" 18 months of supervised probation.and must make 72 (anti-drug?) speaking engagements at the court's direction, but he avoided a felony conviction. The UFC's response to the development was:
This is where the rubber meets the road. Here Dana White has a fighter who is a known cocaine user, and the prima facie evidence is he also uses marijuana. And he probably was operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of a controlled substance, or alcohol, and fled the scene of an accident of his own creation, forsaking an injured (and pregnant) motorist in the doing.
NSAC just have suspended Nick Diaz for five years for fighting after smoking weed, which was two years more than is prescribed by their new, harsher protocols. Which gives me to believe that the UFC put the bug in NSAC's ear that they wanted Diaz to really feel the sting of this one.
So now we get to see whether this is all about personal (or business) grievances, or whether Dana White is serious about cleaning up the sport. Considering how they "forgave" Anderson 'the Spider' Silva, who effectively served a five month suspension after testing positive for four different banned substances (two of which were AASs), I think it's a foregone conclusion that they will not want to be long without the services of such a prodigious breadwinner as Jonny Jones.
Today he plead guilty to the H&R, and was sentenced to "up to" 18 months of supervised probation.and must make 72 (anti-drug?) speaking engagements at the court's direction, but he avoided a felony conviction. The UFC's response to the development was:
This is where the rubber meets the road. Here Dana White has a fighter who is a known cocaine user, and the prima facie evidence is he also uses marijuana. And he probably was operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of a controlled substance, or alcohol, and fled the scene of an accident of his own creation, forsaking an injured (and pregnant) motorist in the doing.
NSAC just have suspended Nick Diaz for five years for fighting after smoking weed, which was two years more than is prescribed by their new, harsher protocols. Which gives me to believe that the UFC put the bug in NSAC's ear that they wanted Diaz to really feel the sting of this one.
So now we get to see whether this is all about personal (or business) grievances, or whether Dana White is serious about cleaning up the sport. Considering how they "forgave" Anderson 'the Spider' Silva, who effectively served a five month suspension after testing positive for four different banned substances (two of which were AASs), I think it's a foregone conclusion that they will not want to be long without the services of such a prodigious breadwinner as Jonny Jones.
- Aug 31, 2012
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Dana White is serious about making money for himself and the Fertittas and about nothing else. A foul mouthed, vindictive scumbag who hit the jackpot with the UFC. He is as serious about cleaning up the sport as Roger Goodell is about combating domestic violence.
Jones is obviously coming back asap.
Jones is obviously coming back asap.
- Sep 29, 2012
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- May 23, 2009
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Former West Coast Eagle Daniel Chick comes clean:
http://watoday.com.au/afl/afl-news/former-eagles-player-reveals-clubs-drug-culture-20150930-gjykam
http://watoday.com.au/afl/afl-news/former-eagles-player-reveals-clubs-drug-culture-20150930-gjykam
- Jul 18, 2010
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Item first from the world of MMA, Jeff Novitzky offers that he has no insight as to why NSAC would hand down such a harsh punishment to UFC middleweight fighter Nick Diaz for smoking weed (a 5-year suspension), but he believes it will be overturned because of inconsistent lab results.
Asked about the pervasiveness of PEDs in MMA, Novitzky said this:
Item second from the world of MMA: Ronda Rousey has become the most tested athlete in the world (in the UFC world, that is). From the MMA news website Bloody Elbow-dot-Com, this is USADA's list of UFC fighters who they have tested since assuming control of that organizations testing program this past July:
Glancing at the list I'm guessing maybe one-third of the fighters listed also have fought in this same time frame. Rousey last fought on 01 August and is scheduled to fight again on 15 November. Bethe Correia, RRR's opponent in the August fight, also was the recipient of special attention with four tests.
USADA's statement concerning "randomization" of testing:
Asked about the pervasiveness of PEDs in MMA, Novitzky said this:
Item second from the world of MMA: Ronda Rousey has become the most tested athlete in the world (in the UFC world, that is). From the MMA news website Bloody Elbow-dot-Com, this is USADA's list of UFC fighters who they have tested since assuming control of that organizations testing program this past July:
Eighty-one tests of 50 fighters over roughly three months. And the UFC has ~450 fighters under contract.
Glancing at the list I'm guessing maybe one-third of the fighters listed also have fought in this same time frame. Rousey last fought on 01 August and is scheduled to fight again on 15 November. Bethe Correia, RRR's opponent in the August fight, also was the recipient of special attention with four tests.
USADA's statement concerning "randomization" of testing:
- Sep 29, 2012
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That's a quick turn around for a follow up fight for Rousey, dayam. Wooo it's going to be here too huh.
http://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/retiring-giants-pitcher-says-players-174546677.html
Retiring Giants pitcher says players using steroids hurt his contracts and took food off his table
.
Business Insider
By Scott Davis
58 minutes ago
With only four games remaining on the San Francisco Giants schedule and their playoff hopes already eliminated, pitcher Jeremy Affeldt is announcing he's retiring at the end of the season.
In a story he wrote for The Cauldron on Sports Illustrated, Affeldt takes a different approach in his announcement.
While he begins by marevling at his career achievements, which include three World Series and a 0.86 postseason ERA, he then moves on to five things he won't miss about MLB.
While Affeldt goes into tell-all mode on all of them — Phillies fans treat opposing players in a "vile and borderline threatening manner," the Wrigley Field player facilities are an "abomination," etc. — perhaps his most enlightening passage is about drug testing.
Affledt makes it clear that he's never taken steroids, but he claims 40% of players were using performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) when he entered the league in 2000. He says while the sports is considerably cleaner, steroid use will never go away completely.
Affeldt critiques MLB for letting the situation get so out of control that now any elite hitter or pitcher is suspected of using PEDs. He continues, claiming that this hurt his career earnings and reputation:
"Make no mistake: I don't believe in using drugs to gain a competitive advantage, even though I know exactly why so many players did it. It was selfish of them, though, and unfair to those of us who weren't doing it. By inflating (or, in the pitchers' cases, deflating) their numbers, PED abusers were taking food off my table, rendering my accomplishments and statistical achievements less meaningful—and certainly less useful when negotiating my contracts."
Additionally, he says the environment created around random drug testing leaves players with no diginity. Affeldt uses the example of playing in high-altitude in Denver, when players are often dehydrated.
"So when MLB's testing officials show up at 11:30 p.m. after the Sunday night game has ended," he begins, "it's literally impossible to provide them with the mandated urine sample. When ya' gotta go, ya' gotta go, but when you can't ... you can't."
However, MLB claims that not taking the test is the same as failing the test, so players are left with no options but to wait out the process.
While steroids aren't going away completely, if the league is getting cleaner as Affeldt says, perhaps his claim will soon be outdated. While baseball players don't seem to be hurting for money — Affeldt has made over $40 million in his career, according to Spotrac — clean players should be rewarded for their play without the suspicion that they cheated to get there
Retiring Giants pitcher says players using steroids hurt his contracts and took food off his table
.
Business Insider
By Scott Davis
58 minutes ago
With only four games remaining on the San Francisco Giants schedule and their playoff hopes already eliminated, pitcher Jeremy Affeldt is announcing he's retiring at the end of the season.
In a story he wrote for The Cauldron on Sports Illustrated, Affeldt takes a different approach in his announcement.
While he begins by marevling at his career achievements, which include three World Series and a 0.86 postseason ERA, he then moves on to five things he won't miss about MLB.
While Affeldt goes into tell-all mode on all of them — Phillies fans treat opposing players in a "vile and borderline threatening manner," the Wrigley Field player facilities are an "abomination," etc. — perhaps his most enlightening passage is about drug testing.
Affledt makes it clear that he's never taken steroids, but he claims 40% of players were using performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) when he entered the league in 2000. He says while the sports is considerably cleaner, steroid use will never go away completely.
Affeldt critiques MLB for letting the situation get so out of control that now any elite hitter or pitcher is suspected of using PEDs. He continues, claiming that this hurt his career earnings and reputation:
"Make no mistake: I don't believe in using drugs to gain a competitive advantage, even though I know exactly why so many players did it. It was selfish of them, though, and unfair to those of us who weren't doing it. By inflating (or, in the pitchers' cases, deflating) their numbers, PED abusers were taking food off my table, rendering my accomplishments and statistical achievements less meaningful—and certainly less useful when negotiating my contracts."
Additionally, he says the environment created around random drug testing leaves players with no diginity. Affeldt uses the example of playing in high-altitude in Denver, when players are often dehydrated.
"So when MLB's testing officials show up at 11:30 p.m. after the Sunday night game has ended," he begins, "it's literally impossible to provide them with the mandated urine sample. When ya' gotta go, ya' gotta go, but when you can't ... you can't."
However, MLB claims that not taking the test is the same as failing the test, so players are left with no options but to wait out the process.
While steroids aren't going away completely, if the league is getting cleaner as Affeldt says, perhaps his claim will soon be outdated. While baseball players don't seem to be hurting for money — Affeldt has made over $40 million in his career, according to Spotrac — clean players should be rewarded for their play without the suspicion that they cheated to get there
- May 2, 2009
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How did Affeldt know for certain that 40 percent were doping in 2000 and only a few are doping now?
Re:
Good question. I guess it is a lower estimate than I usually see but the only two I saw were Canseco and the late Ken Caminiti .the delgados said:
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