Doping in other sports?

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

You could use countless doped athletes in any analogy you want but I think Bolt is unique and clean.

in the absence of evidence either way, why would you think he's clean when we know many of his countrymen dope?
i won't laugh if you say he never tested positive.
i think in this case it'd be a fair argument (because many of his countrymen did/do test positive, so apparently there is at least some more or less serious testing going on), but I would counterargue that there are all sorts of commercial reasons why Bolt might be heavily protected, invalidating the 'never tested positive' argument. Plus, he has the dough to get on the very best of programs, which means even if they do test him, he might still fly under the radar.

btw, he's a unique athlete, I agree, but are unique athletes less inclined to dope?[/quot


In Bolts case. He was outstanding as youngster. There was and has been as far as I am aware no suspicions of Jamaican Athletes being doped at a young age "its not cycling "
He his a giant of a man and I think has run to the potential of his size and natural ability "talent".
The major bust's of the Jamaican team came after Bolts success. Obviously the Jamaicans got a bit complacent in trying to match the success of Bolt.

I think Bolt is unique as a athlete and his clean. That's it.

 

[Eagle]

Re: Re:

You could use countless doped athletes in any analogy you want but I think Bolt is unique and clean.

in the absence of evidence either way, why would you think he's clean when we know many of his countrymen dope?
i won't laugh if you say he never tested positive.
i think in this case it'd be a fair argument (because many of his countrymen did/do test positive, so apparently there is at least some more or less serious testing going on), but I would counterargue that there are all sorts of commercial reasons why Bolt might be heavily protected, invalidating the 'never tested positive' argument. Plus, he has the dough to get on the very best of programs, which means even if they do test him, he might still fly under the radar.

btw, he's a unique athlete, I agree, but are unique athletes less inclined to dope?

In Bolts case. He was outstanding as youngster. There was and has been as far as I am aware no suspicions of Jamaican Athletes being doped at a young age "its not cycling "
He his a giant of a man and I think has run to the potential of his size and natural ability "talent".
The major bust's of the Jamaican team came after Bolts success. Obviously the Jamaicans got a bit complacent in trying to match the success of Bolt.

I think Bolt is unique as a athlete and his clean. That's it.

Yohan Blake tested positive when he was 19

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Yohan Blake tested positive when he was 19

indeed, goes to show that age is not the deciding factor here.
(also, Blake has always been on very good terms with Bolt, training partners and friends, which might be slightly unexpected if Bolt were clean)

ray j, you have a case that Bolt never transformed in any suspect sense and that he is a uniquely talented athlete regardless of PEDs.
but your opinion that he's clean imo is not informed by the history of this discipline.

 

[sniper]

good comment in comment section of an article on jamaican doping
http://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2014/0808/635892-column-gillick-discusses-doping-in-athletics/

Those of us who have been around a little longer will rightly be sceptical of the recent performances of Jamaican athletes. In 2002 Jamaica didn't have one solitary male sprinter in the top 20 ranked by season's best that year for the 100m. That's hardly surprising - Jamaica only has about 2.8m people, a bit less than Wales or Albania, and about half the population of Ireland or New Zealand. Ten years later in 2012 Jamaicans filled 9 (yes nine!) of the top 20. That's even more remarkable when you consider how many gifted young Jamaican athletes are removed from the track and field talent pool by basketball or football scholarships to American colleges.

 

[poupou]

How could young Jamaican test positive when there is no NADA there?

 

[sniper]

Re:

How could young Jamaican test positive when there is no NADA there?

There is/was a Jamaican Anti-Doping Commission.
Blake was/is trained by Glen Mills, Mills also being Bolt's trainer.
At least one other positive Jamaican sprinter is/was coached by Mills.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/jul/26/jamaican-athletes-positive-drug-test

the link to Bolt's athletics club – run by the coach Glen Mills – will be of great concern in safeguarding the sport's international reputation.

Bolt a talented athlete? most ffing definitely.
Remember what a phenomenal talent people thought Carl Lewis was.
And he was. But he also doped.

The history of sprinting disciplines shows the massive advantages you get from doping, in terms of pure strength/muscles, endurance parameters, extra training hours (= increased technique, speed), focus/concentration, etc.
One is hardpressed to understand how even the most talented clean athlete could bridge those advantages when up against doped fellow Jamaican and American sprinters who themselves aren't particularly untalented either. To think Bolt is clean is just clutching at the proverbial straws.

 

[Lyon]

Nobody doubts Bolts talent. Certainly not those of us who witnessed his rise through the 'champs' in Jamaica. At the time I was very active in certain discussion groups dedicated to the sprints, including one that was invite only and which counted among its members high ranking coaches and athletes from both the U.S. and Jamaica. I could drop some names but that is beside the point of this discussion.

Anyway, around 2006 several of the more knowledgeable fans simply stopped posting - it was becoming to ridiculous. It wasn't about any one athlete or camp, the bar was simply lowered all across the sprinting world. People would fall out of bed and run a sub 9.90. Powell had been doing it for a while, now everybody was doing it, including some that had one good season and then nothing. It was very much like the early nineties in cycling.

Then Bolt came along and took it to a whole new level. How to explain that?
Then Gay somehow managed to follow Bolt.
Then everybody in Bolts camp started following him. It looked so easy.

 

[mrhender]

Re:

Nobody doubts Bolts talent. Certainly not those of us who witnessed his rise through the 'champs' in Jamaica. At the time I was very active in certain discussion groups dedicated to the sprints, including one that was invite only and which counted among its members high ranking coaches and athletes from both the U.S. and Jamaica. I could drop some names but that is beside the point of this discussion.

Anyway, around 2006 several of the more knowledgeable fans simply stopped posting - it was becoming to ridiculous. It wasn't about any one athlete or camp, the bar was simply lowered all across the sprinting world. People would fall out of bed and run a sub 9.90. Powell had been doing it for a while, now everybody was doing it, including some that had one good season and then nothing. It was very much like the early nineties in cycling.

Then Bolt came along and took it to a whole new level. How to explain that?
Then Gay somehow managed to follow Bolt.
Then everybody in Bolts camp started following him. It looked so easy.

Great post...

 

[The Hitch]

I've noticed no one has responded to the observations made by mstr and blackcat which poked massive holes in the - bolt is clean cos he is tall, argument.

But no doubt, a few months down the line someone new/ the same people, will come along as if nothing had happened and post the same argument backed up by nothing.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Yohan Blake tested positive when he was 19

indeed, goes to show that age is not the deciding factor here.
(also, Blake has always been on very good terms with Bolt, training partners and friends, which might be slightly unexpected if Bolt were clean)

ray j, you have a case that Bolt never transformed in any suspect sense and that he is a uniquely talented athlete regardless of PEDs.
but your opinion that he's clean imo is not informed by the history of this discipline.

That's a great point "is not informed by the history of this discipline"
I take that on board.
If I am proved wrong I am very happy "not the right word" to admit it.
But even amongst the doped athletes times get faster athletes run and jump quicker so there is improvement of physical ability. One other factor for me as a person who used to be into body building. The drugs most sprinters use for mass/strength or very well known in the Body building arena and it gives your body a certain look a hardness the skin looks different "Quite hard to explain" Bolt does not have any of these signs in his physic. He has never really gained a huge amount of muscle like the other sprinters have. Chambers is a prime example of this. Its not my only reason but it is quite significant IMO.
cheers

 

[djpbaltimore]

Google Marion Jones' ex Tim Montgomery. He held the 100m world record in 2002 before it was stripped later because of the BALCO scandal. He was also a lean runner, so the suggestion that you have to look like Ben Johnson or Dwain Chamber if you take PEDs is extremely naive.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Pretty comparable I would say

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Oh RayRay... Judging doping (or the lack of) by the look of it.
Who "looks doped or not" here?
Your "arguments" get more grotesque by the minute.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

BTW RayRay, the 2nd pic is of a sprinter who just ran a reasonable 9.99 ...

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

BTW RayRay, the 2nd pic is of a sprinter who just ran a reasonable 9.99 ...

If you all want to keep posting photo's that's up to you.
You have my opinion and my reasons.
There really is no need to keep digging your heels in.
You can let it go and move on or carry on making childish insulting remarks because you don't have the ability to accept someone else's opinion other than yours.

Cheers Ray.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It´s not childish. We just debunk your so-called "arguments". Don´t read more into it than it actually is.
And why shall we let it go if you can´t?

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

It´s not childish. We just debunk your so-called "arguments". Don´t read more into it than it actually is.
And why shall we let it go if you can´t?

Actually I have replied to post's by other posters but you keep jumping in.
I don't really understand why you keep jumping in. I have heard you view and it does not matter how many times you post it, you will not change my mind.
Now lets see how long it takes you before you jump in again

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Again: Why shall I not?
This is a open forum. If you wanna discuss Bolt in private with others, PM them.
I otoh feel free to post every time I see the need to correct your "arguments", so that your attempt to mislead other forum members fails... remember, you are not the only one reading in an open form. Unbelievable isn´t it?
"Now lets see how long it takes you before you jump in again"... Imagine, just now. Coz I am too nice to you to reply to your questions...
Ofc I know I won´t change your POV. That´s something we all learnt from the former LA fanboy antics. Fanatics views are hard to change...

 

[Catwhoorg]

The Doper Gatlin wins the 100m in Doha (Diamond League)

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

Again: Why shall I not?
This is a open forum. If you wanna discuss Bolt in private with others, PM them.
I otoh feel free to post every time I see the need to correct your "arguments", so that your attempt to mislead other forum members fails... remember, you are not the only one reading in an open form. Unbelievable isn´t it?
"Now lets see how long it takes you before you jump in again"... Imagine, just now. Coz I am too nice to you to reply to your questions...
Ofc I know I won´t change your POV. That´s something we all learnt from the former LA fanboy antics. Fanatics views are hard to change...

14 minutes

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

The Doper Gatlin wins the 100m in Doha (Diamond League)

In a career best 9.74

Steve cram on the call: "Well whatever the secret is, he might want to keep it to himself. 33 years of age and he's just run his fastest 100 meters ever - with all of his history. 9.74. What a start to the season.

Is he going to go quicker? The questions will just keep coming about Gatlin."

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Laughable. The Valverde of the sprinting world?

 

[Catwhoorg]

More like Horner...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

More like Horner...

Except Horner was never pinged. And is much older. And isn't known for his sprint.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

More like Horner...

Except Horner was never pinged. And is much older. And isn't known for his sprint.

ulissi was always gonna be like bettini
i know this is about gatlin
but when horner weighed 10lb more, was only 29, he could finish off a decimated group and was punchy. Not gerrans nor gilbert nor valverde quick, but when he was younger and carrying more muscle, he could sprint for that type of rider.

he could also timetrial very well, i dont think he won any national tt championships in the US, but i would be surprised if he was never on the podium if he entered the tt champs.

then around 2011, he lost all that weight, that year he won the Tour of Cali. then the @rse fell out of his tt. It is amazing Froome and Wigans managed to maintain or even improve their tt. NOT NORMAL

busche had a good Cali too, and loved Chris Horner's pronounciation of Booooshaaayyyy