Doping in other sports?

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Aug 31, 2012
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I love Gatling. He really exposes the hasn't-tested-positive-therefore-clean-except-if-previously-caught crowd as the complete idiots they are. Unfortunately, some of them appear to have heard of that one study that indicated PED use effect scan last a long time on rats or something, so they can now attribute it to that and conserve their fantasy.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Tonton said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Laughable. The Valverde of the sprinting world?
Yes, and Bolt is the Wonderboy before the confession. Don't be surprised if Ray or another gullible bloke comes to his defense :rolleyes:

*shudder*

http://usainbolt.com/foundation/

ps7PQIw.jpg
 
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SeriousSam said:
I love Gatling. He really exposes the hasn't-tested-positive-therefore-clean-except-if-previously-caught crowd as the complete idiots they are. Unfortunately, some of them appear to have heard of that one study that indicated PED use effect scan last a long time on rats or something, so they can now attribute it to that and conserve their fantasy.
Got to aknowledge it makes perfect sense though. Gatlin could run 9.79 while actually on the drugs it's only natural that the residual effect of them many years later is going to allow him to do 9.74
 
When Gatlin was on drugs he obviously did not train very hard, just relied on the drugs to do all the work, now he has learnt the ability to train so of course he goes faster.
And his shoes are so much better, they give at least 0.2 second off his time, so when you take that in to account he is really running slower than before, it is just faster.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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frenchfry said:
some details from that article:
- apparently Gatlin when he was suspended tried to join a professional American Football team, which he could because the USADA sanction didn't/doesn't apply to the NFL(?).
- Gatlin is now trained by Denis Mitchell, who also coaches the US men 4x100, and who himself got caught for testosterone at the end of his carreer.
- two other 100m runners who Gatlin ran against yesterday also just came back from a doping ban: the Nigerian Femi Ogunode (now a Quatari national), and the American Michael Rodgers.

Also didn't know that last year Gatlin ran 6 of the 7 year-best times.
https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/athletics-gatlin-storms-9-74-100m-lifetime-best-181126238--spt.html
 
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blackcat said:
armchair climber.

stride length has some relationship with the disadvantage on starting.

advantage on speed endurance, disadvantage on exploding from blocks, and accelerating to terminal velocity.



you just wish to pick and choose your characteristics. it does not work that way, one must be universal in collating all evidence, so you have some piece of positive evidence, but this positive evidence also works as a piece of negative evidence. Just ask someone here to demonstrate the applied physics formula of work and power required by Bolt out of the starting gates, compared to an athlete with shorter levers.

Actually, even in events where quick, explosive movement are necessary, we still look for long levers....in combination with good FT musculature. This is especially true in field events. At youth level we look to "recruit" from other sports (basketball, dance, football, rugby, gymnastics) .... height and strength combined with good co-ordination and balance).

Bolt isn't the best starter in the world...where he takes time out of his rivals, as you well know, is in the 2nd 50m.

I have no interest in convincing any of you who hold the view that Bolt is doping that he isn't. As I said, he may be...I personally just don't think he needs to. I'm a bit fatigued by some of the childish tone, but I will still pop by and contribute to discussion though.
 
Aug 4, 2011
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Tonton said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Laughable. The Valverde of the sprinting world?
Yes, and Bolt is the Wonderboy before the confession. Don't be surprised if Ray or another gullible bloke comes to his defense :rolleyes:

Get some perspective. I spent 2 years over on The BR clinic pointing out to the fairy believers how much doping is going on and got banned for it.
I mention 1 "JUST ONE" person who I think his clean and your trying to pigeon hole me $$$$ %%%
 
Jun 15, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
blackcat said:
armchair climber.

stride length has some relationship with the disadvantage on starting.

advantage on speed endurance, disadvantage on exploding from blocks, and accelerating to terminal velocity.



you just wish to pick and choose your characteristics. it does not work that way, one must be universal in collating all evidence, so you have some piece of positive evidence, but this positive evidence also works as a piece of negative evidence. Just ask someone here to demonstrate the applied physics formula of work and power required by Bolt out of the starting gates, compared to an athlete with shorter levers.

Actually, even in events where quick, explosive movement are necessary, we still look for long levers....in combination with good FT musculature. This is especially true in field events. At youth level we look to "recruit" from other sports (basketball, dance, football, rugby, gymnastics) .... height and strength combined with good co-ordination and balance).

Bolt isn't the best starter in the world...where he takes time out of his rivals, as you well know, is in the 2nd 50m.

I have no interest in convincing any of you who hold the view that Bolt is doping that he isn't. As I said, he may be...I personally just don't think he needs to. I'm a bit fatigued by some of the childish tone, but I will still pop by and contribute to discussion though.

Look, childish tone is debattable, but those who know Bolt is doping just have the arguments. That is what matters.
So let me debunk another one of the naive believers. The above bolted is absolute nonsense. I wonder how an "expert" like you can make such a mistake? OTOH it´s perfectly possible you did it intentionally to mislead the readers again.
So here is the truth:
10 meter splits of 100 meter times

Ben Johnson (pumped up known fast starter)
Rome
Reaction time; 0.13 seconds
0-10 meters; 1.71
11-20;1.02 (= 2.86 seconds after 20 meters)
21-30; 0.94
31-40; 0.87 (= 4.67 after 40)
41-50; 0.86
51-60; 0.85 (= 6.38 after 60)
61-70; 0.85
71-80; 0.87
81-90; 0.86
91-100; 0.87 (= 3.45 for the last 40 meters)
Totals; 9.83

Carl Lewis
Tokyo
Reaction time; 0.14
0-10; 1.74
11-20; 1.08 (= 2.96 seconds after 20 meters)
21-30; 0.92
31-40; 0.89 (= 4.77 after 40)
41-50; 0.84
51-60; 0.85 (= 6.46 after 60)
61-70; 0.84
71-80; 0.83
81-90; 0.87
91-100; 0.86 (= 3.40 for the last 40 meters)
Totals; 9.86

Bolt
Beijing
Reaction time; 0.17 sec
0-10 meters; 1.68
11-20; 1.02 (= 2.87 seconds after 20 meters)
21-30; 0.91
31-40; 0.87 (= 4.65 after 40)
41-50; 0.85
51-60; 0.82 (= 6.32 after 60)
61-70; 0.82
71-80; 0.82
81-90; 0.83
91-100; 0.90 (= 3.37 for the last 40 meters)
Totals; 9.69

Berlin
Reaction time; 0.15
0-10 meters; 1.74
11-20; 0.99 (= 2.88 seconds after 20 meters)
21-30; 0.90
31-40; 0.86 (= 4.64 after 40)
41-50; 0.83
51-60; 0.82 (= 6.29 after 60)
61-70; 0.81
71-80; 0.82
81-90; 0.83
91-100; 0.83 (= 3.29 for the last 40 meters)
Totals; 9.58

What we see is, that the "slow starter" Bolt is as fast out of the blocks as steriod monster Ben was (2.87/2.88 vs 2.86 after 20 meters). So blackcat is absolutely right that the drugs helped Bolt for getting a fast start which would be otherwise impossible to do given his body length. To underline that, you can see that Lewis was a true slow starter (because of the compareable built as Bolt, even though not as much bulked up as him), going 1/10 slower than both Ben & Bolt (2.96 after 20 meters).

After 40 meters Lewis is behind, still "suffering" from the slow start, while Ben & Bolt are almost even. Bolt gained a few hundreths against Ben between 20 and 40 meters. Remarkable job for a "slow" starter since top speed is not yet reached, thus it´s still acceleration.

After 60 meters time, widely accepted to favour explosive starters like Ben, Bolt gains more time, while all three reached max speed.

For the last 40 meters Epo (and/or other blood manipulation) comes into play for Bolt (see Kelli White´s confession, and how it helps sprinters).
Lewis, the one known best finisher ever, could not hold the high speed from 80+ meters on, while Ben almost did it (becoming the better version of Lewis :eek: ). Bolt? Almost didn´t lose a step (ignoring his open-shoe-trotting in Beijing for the last 10 meters).

Short summary: Bolt gained 0.1 seconds in the first 20 meters, and 0.1 seconds in the last 40 meters thanks to his "speed-endurance", totally debunking the myth of him allegedly being a slow starter. A doper otoh? Yes ofc, without a tiny doubt.

Links:
http://myweb.lmu.edu/jmureika/track/splits/splits.html
http://speedendurance.com/2009/08/19/usain-bolt-10-meter-splits-fastest-top-speed-2008-vs-2009/
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Yes. I've read an analysis where the "ideal" 100m time is constructed by pasting together the best 10m splits ever. Turns out that with Bolt's Beijing, Berlin and London runs we only need like one 10m section from some other all time great.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
Actually, even in events where quick, explosive movement are necessary, we still look for long levers....in combination with good FT musculature. This is especially true in field events. At youth level we look to "recruit" from other sports (basketball, dance, football, rugby, gymnastics) .... height and strength combined with good co-ordination and balance).

Bolt isn't the best starter in the world...where he takes time out of his rivals, as you well know, is in the 2nd 50m.

I have no interest in convincing any of you who hold the view that Bolt is doping that he isn't. As I said, he may be...I personally just don't think he needs to. I'm a bit fatigued by some of the childish tone, but I will still pop by and contribute to discussion though.

block starts are different from a triple jump or long jump or high jump or polevault.

it is because the levers are bent in the blocks, and the body "unfolds" up to full height in the acceleration in the first 30 metres. So the levers are bent and perpindicular (close to).

if you get on a bench press, see a small guy with shorter arms and how he can lift compared to a taller person. That is a pretty simple applied practice for you to see.

We are not talking about some 6'8" players in the nba who have to duck when they jump near the rim for fear their head hits the rim.

So,it is COMPLETELY different for a tall runner to unfurl their levers from the blocks. And it is a great heuristic, there have been many thousands of tall olympic runners, who all had typeII fibres, and were off the bell curve, indeed, they fronted up at the olympics for chrissakes. so why has there been no person who has been able to explode from the blocks? It is the new SARMS and peptides like CJC-1695. Lets get Carl Lewis on the same androgens and put them mano a mano. I think Lewis would be competitve, I dont think he would beat Bolt however.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Tbh Sam, I tried to highlight the fast start of Bolt. Since him being allegedly a slow starter is a myth as all the Armstrong BS was (cadence, bigger heart, harder training).
But ofc you are right, any 10 meter split shows the absurdity of Bolts performance. The drugs/blood manipulation helped him to overcome the disadvantage at the start (some favour the drugs Lewis used could never do for Lewis; as Tonton said: give him the same shit that Bolt is on, and he tops them all), the drugs/blood manipulation helped him to reach the fastest speed ever, and the drugs/blood manipulation helped him to hold that speed longer than others.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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veganrob said:
So some people think that just because Bolt has different running style or physical attributes then he doesn't dope. Okay. :confused:
Yes, it's like in cycling the big ass droping the climbers on montain. That is because they are heavier and stronger... of course. No else had thought about it until that moment! Clever they are.
 
Re: Re:

armchairclimber said:
I have no interest in convincing any of you who hold the view that Bolt is doping that he isn't. As I said, he may be...I personally just don't think he needs to. I'm a bit fatigued by some of the childish tone, but I will still pop by and contribute to discussion though.

In a level playing field, he would need to. I am totally in agreement that his physique and technique are the best in the business. Just, look at the playing field. Not only suspect, actually caught! That takes pretty outrageous levels of doping. You'd expect the long line of second bests to at least get his WR's at some stage. But they don't.
One human can be better than others, but he's still human. And not training harder, or wanting it more, or helped by a deity, none of that. Just a bit taller and refined. That doesn't keep the doctors away yet the gold coming.
 
Re: Re:

ray j willings said:
Tonton said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Laughable. The Valverde of the sprinting world?
Yes, and Bolt is the Wonderboy before the confession. Don't be surprised if Ray or another gullible bloke comes to his defense :rolleyes:

Get some perspective. I spent 2 years over on The BR clinic pointing out to the fairy believers how much doping is going on and got banned for it.
I mention 1 "JUST ONE" person who I think his clean and your trying to pigeon hole me $$$$ %%%

On several occasions, in life or on this forum, when others have convinced me to get off the fence, or look at a topic in a different light. I wish you showed an open mind when facing the many solid counter arguments that have been posted. Instead, and all you do is attack/insult those who disagree with your flawed point of view. Pathetic. I'm not going to enter a pi$$ing contest with you. If you want to believe in Santa, good for you.
 
Aug 4, 2011
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Tonton said:
ray j willings said:
Tonton said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Laughable. The Valverde of the sprinting world?
Yes, and Bolt is the Wonderboy before the confession. Don't be surprised if Ray or another gullible bloke comes to his defense :rolleyes:

Get some perspective. I spent 2 years over on The BR clinic pointing out to the fairy believers how much doping is going on and got banned for it.
I mention 1 "JUST ONE" person who I think his clean and your trying to pigeon hole me $$$$ %%%

On several occasions, in life or on this forum, when others have convinced me to get off the fence, or look at a topic in a different light. I wish you showed an open mind when facing the many solid counter arguments that have been posted. Instead, and all you do is attack/insult those who disagree with your flawed point of view. Pathetic. I'm not going to enter a pi$$ing contest with you. If you want to believe in Santa, good for you.

Get the facts right JACK....you called me gullible, pathetic,your making assumptions about me and my views. ,,,YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME. You and your buddys are the ones chucking out the insults and snide remarks. Never mind my point is Flawed your ability and strong need to massage you ego is flawed.
I have given my reasons for my opinion about Bolt.
Grow up and get over it.
 
Aug 4, 2011
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The Hitch said:
"I think he is clean because I'm a delusional fan and want to believe he is clean"

Isn't much of a "reason"

If your talking about me hitch , I gave my reasons why I think bolt "ONE ATHLETE" his clean.
It does not make me delusional or a fan, its my opinion. The fact you chuck out those kind of cheap remarks" delusional" trying to establish yourself as someone who thinks they know it all.

Your self righteous views are no more valid than anyone else and that fact you didn't have the balls to apologise when you claimed I was a fake poster shows the kind of person you are. SOME ONE WHO NEVER THINKS THEY ARE WRONG EVEN WHEN THEY ARE.

Oh yeah and if by some chance Bolt ever did get caught then I would have the balls to own up and admit I got it wrong. Its just a view not a matter of life or death as it seems to be for some idiots on here. I have a life outside of this forum.

Hitch world a place where you try and think like your hero instead of yourself.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Hey RayRay, at least we didn´t call you idiot like you just did...
What is hurting you about "delusional", and what Tonton and others said correctly? If you behave worse than a blinded LA fanboy, you should man up and take some flak.
I mean you ignore everything presented to you, so that you still can hold up your shield "just one athlete". Even if it´s only one? It´s one of the dopers that responds "with the best" to drugs. Wrong choice Baby... ;)