Doping in other sports?

[mikeoneill]

Okay the Sky question, assuming everyone in athletics is doping what are the Jamaicans doing so much better than everyone else?

not testing

out of competition

 

[neineinei]

I wonder if he intended that as a compliment or an insult.

Sounds like an insult. He could have said she looked like Bolt in Berlin, instead he made us feel the decaying nails of Flo Jo running up and down our backs.

 

[si botak]

Okay the Sky question, assuming everyone in athletics is doping what are the Jamaicans doing so much better than everyone else?

Lots of naturally talented sprinters + something 'special'...

Perhaps lax testing allows greater freedom. Perhaps weak law enforcement attracts the 'best' doctors who don't fancy a US prison. Perhaps something that others don't have. Could be many things and I certainly have no idea.

5 sprinters at the same time who have run 9.8 or less though, when only 1 non-Jamaican in history has run sub 9.8 without failing a drug test (and that guy is Maurice Greene )

Perhaps they just train harder...

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

F1 car minimum weight includes the driver. The cars carry ballast to meet this minimum weight requirement so a small driver doesn't mean a lower overall weight as the car + driver is significantly under the minimum weight allowed....

Driver weight is not included in minimum spec weight. This is copied verbatim and entire from the FIA's 2013 Technical Regs. It makes no mention of the driver:

ARTICLE 4 : WEIGHT
4.1 Minimum weight :
The weight of the car, without fuel, must not be less than 642kg at all times during the Event.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.

 

[blackcat]

Lots of naturally talented sprinters + something 'special'...

Perhaps lax testing allows greater freedom. Perhaps weak law enforcement attracts the 'best' doctors who don't fancy a US prison. Perhaps something that others don't have. Could be many things and I certainly have no idea.

5 sprinters at the same time who have run 9.8 or less though, when only 1 non-Jamaican in history has run sub 9.8 without failing a drug test (and that guy is Maurice Greene )

Perhaps they just train harder...

not better gear or better doping. just given opportunity to be 100% doping, and the cover of Jamaica, not having to "duck and dive" and develop a doping program around testing, and around golden league meets.

basically, the jamaicans, can dope to 100% like the GDR.

now Usain Bolt has reached an Armstrong level of "too big to fail". As long as Bolt does not have a Floyd Landis who can bring him down, he is free.

and i doubt that whatever peptides and testo-similars, will ever show up in a current test. But they may show up in a test 10 years down the road. See: Don Catlin retesting samples that glowed like kryptonite

 

[mikeoneill]

athletics isn't big on retesting samples

if some new test is developed

they'll take down 1 or 2 names and let the rest off

too many is bad for business

 

[martinvickers]

athletics isn't big on retesting samples

if some new test is developed

they'll take down 1 or 2 names and let the rest off

too many is bad for business

Erm, you do know IAAF and IOC just retested a whole bunch of samples from the 2004 era, and handed out a fistful of bans including some olympic medalists?

But, you know, don't let facts get in the way.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/summer/2012/trackandfield/story/_/id/8229049/2012-london-olympics-ivan-tsikhan-retests-samples-2004-athens-games-test-positive

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20130308/iaaf-world-championships-drug-retests.ap/

http://news.yahoo.com/iaaf-announces-9-doping-cases-153940126--spt.html

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

athletics isn't big on retesting samples

if some new test is developed

they'll take down 1 or 2 names and let the rest off

too many is bad for business

Any evidence to back this up or did you just make it up?

 

[Alphabet]

But 20? Rats in a maze can memorize that many turns.

Obviously it's a lot more complex than just remembering which way to turn. They need to remember the ideal approach and exit speeds, the ideal angle to take the corner, the ideal moment to shift gear and the appropriate gear for each individual corner. I'm not even an F1 fan so that's about as far as my technical knowledge goes (all learned from playing Gran Turismo 5 ), but that alone would mean that for a track containing 20 turns, they would need to memorise 100 different figures (at a minimum, I'm certain real life racing is a billion times more complicated than GT 5), and be able to recall that while concentrating on driving at 250km/hr. It must be incredibly tough. I'm studying to be a historian, so I have a pretty good memory, and I struggle to remember the exact technique for something as simple as reverse parallel parking .

 

[darwin553]

The difference in the weight of the sport's heaviest driver (Ozzie Mark Webber) and its lightest (Brazilian Felipe Massa) is near about 17 kg (2 stone and 9 lbs) , which amounts to 2.6% of the car's 642 kg minimum spec weight.

I find that hard to believe considering the size of his head

 

[mikeoneill]

Erm, you do know IAAF and IOC just retested a whole bunch of samples from the 2004 era, and handed out a fistful of bans including some olympic medalists?

But, you know, don't let facts get in the way.

http://www.dw.de/olympic-committee-provides-a-chance-in-anti-doping-fight/a-16406697

Of the nearly 3,700 doping samples from the 2004 Summer Olympics, only 110 were retested. This is despite the fact that the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) had advised the IOC to retest three times that figure. And despite the low number of retests, five athletes have already been found positive.

WADA President John Fahey has criticized the IOC for the first time publicly, asking: "Why bother taking samples for eight years if you're not going to reanalyze them? Throw them out in the first place. Save your money, save the space."

The crown jewel of the Athens Games, 100-meter champion Justin Gatlin, was not retested, according to ARD. This is despite the fact that two years later, in 2006, the American tested positive for anabolic steroids - precisely the same doping agent found in the five Eastern European medal winners.
These revelations are regarded as scandalous among doping experts. The WADA, sports doctor and well-known gene doping researching Perikles Simon, condemned the IOC.
"My impression is that the IOC did not want to retest these samples,"


you need to do your research before you start posting stuff.........

 

[blackcat]

http://www.dw.de/olympic-committee-provides-a-chance-in-anti-doping-fight/a-16406697

Of the nearly 3,700 doping samples from the 2004 Summer Olympics, only 110 were retested. This is despite the fact that the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) had advised the IOC to retest three times that figure. And despite the low number of retests, five athletes have already been found positive.

WADA President John Fahey has criticized the IOC for the first time publicly, asking: "Why bother taking samples for eight years if you're not going to reanalyze them? Throw them out in the first place. Save your money, save the space."

The crown jewel of the Athens Games, 100-meter champion Justin Gatlin, was not retested, according to ARD. This is despite the fact that two years later, in 2006, the American tested positive for anabolic steroids - precisely the same doping agent found in the five Eastern European medal winners.
These revelations are regarded as scandalous among doping experts. The WADA, sports doctor and well-known gene doping researching Perikles Simon, condemned the IOC.
"My impression is that the IOC did not want to retest these samples,"


you need to do your research before you start posting stuff.........

@Don Catlin

 

[mikeoneill]

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/25/ioc-doping-chief-rues-not-acting-sooner-on-retests173053/

Pound, former chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency, expressed "concern and disappointment" about the IOC's reluctance to retest earlier — an unusual public rebuke during the IOC's general assembly.

"If those we hope to deter understand we do nothing, there is not going to be much of a deterrent."

Pound also complained that the IOC had decided to carry out the retests only after pressure from the media and WADA.

 

[darwin553]

Driver weight is not included in minimum spec weight. This is copied verbatim and entire from the FIA's 2013 Technical Regs. It makes no mention of the driver:

ARTICLE 4 : WEIGHT
4.1 Minimum weight :
The weight of the car, without fuel, must not be less than 642kg at all times during the Event.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.

The driver is included in the minimum weight. Why else would they be weighed at the end of the race??

 

[jamessmithuk]

Former head of the French anti-doping council, Marc Sanson, claims F1 drivers have used Tacrine, a drug typically used to treat Alzheimer's disease, because it helps them remember the circuit.

I'm thinking all the F1 circuits currently in use have fewer than 20 corners, so it sounds to me like maybe F1 need to look into hiring smarter drivers. The old Nordschleife had as many as 160 corners, so I could understand the challenge there. But 20? Rats in a maze can memorize that many turns.

Yeah, that sounds silly, but what about stuff that can keep a driver alert and in top physical condition?

Sterling Moss in his autobiography admitted that he took "magic pills" from Fangio:

In the first grand prix races that year in Argentina - run in terrible heat - the Old Boy had been the only one to complete the distance solo. So when he offered his magic pills we accepted. I took mine, Jenks didn't take his. To this day I've no idea if that pill would be legal or illegal, acceptable or banned. But at that time it was no issue. Dexedrine and Benzedrine were commonly used. The object was simply to keep awake, like wartime bomber crews.

Barrichello and Papis failed a FIA drug test in '95 for ephedrine.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

@Don Catlin

The Don Catlin "Oh phuck everyone's testing positive on the re-test better throw them down the drain" makes me want to cry.

 

[sugarman]

The driver is included in the minimum weight. Why else would they be weighed at the end of the race??

Yes they are definitely included!

Reg 1.9 Weight: ... "Is the weight of the car with the driver, wearing his complete racing apparel, at all times during the Event"

To understand Reg 4.1, quoted by someone else earlier, you need to consider the definition of 'weight' otherwise 'minimum weight' is meaningless.

 

[blackcat]

The Don Catlin "Oh phuck everyone's testing positive on the re-test better throw them down the drain" makes me want to cry.

why WADA and the IOC dont wanna go back and test gold medals from 8 years back when better testing comes onstream. Once they have stepped on the top of the dias, its all over. and i dont blame the athletes. i dont even blame the IOC and WADA. They are just individual cogs in a bigger system eh

 

[Galic Ho]

Obviously it's a lot more complex than just remembering which way to turn. They need to remember the ideal approach and exit speeds, the ideal angle to take the corner, the ideal moment to shift gear and the appropriate gear for each individual corner. I'm not even an F1 fan so that's about as far as my technical knowledge goes (all learned from playing Gran Turismo 5 ), but that alone would mean that for a track containing 20 turns, they would need to memorise 100 different figures (at a minimum, I'm certain real life racing is a billion times more complicated than GT 5), and be able to recall that while concentrating on driving at 250km/hr. It must be incredibly tough. I'm studying to be a historian, so I have a pretty good memory, and I struggle to remember the exact technique for something as simple as reverse parallel parking .

Get off the road then. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but given I lived in Bathurst for years, yeah...lots of bad drivers around.

It's simple route learning. You run on autopilot. It's a habit and the neural pahtways have formed long ago from junior racing. Racers know how to do all these things. Reverse parking is the same. Men are actually worse than women in tests. Women hands down beat men at reverse parking for license tests. However, switch the location, conditions and CAR and men can compensate. Studies have shown that womens passing rate goes from 80 something percent down to 20 something. Men's drops a bit, but is still high.

History has always been my forte. I have a really good memory. Driving and parking are second nature. You don't have to think about them, it just happens. Well for me it does. The G-Forces in racing are the hardest part. Most people would physically crack before they mentally cracked racing.

Some people can just do it. It's what they were born to do. Natural affinity. Just like cycling. Some people are naturals on a bike and make it look effortless. Then there are the classless and formless gits, like Froome.

 

[blackcat]

Get off the road then. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but given I lived in Bathurst for years, yeah...lots of bad drivers around.

It's simple route learning. You run on autopilot. It's a habit and the neural pahtways have formed long ago from junior racing. Racers know how to do all these things. Reverse parking is the same. Men are actually worse than women in tests. Women hands down beat men at reverse parking for license tests. However, switch the location, conditions and CAR and men can compensate. Studies have shown that womens passing rate goes from 80 something percent down to 20 something. Men's drops a bit, but is still high.

History has always been my forte. I have a really good memory. Driving and parking are second nature. You don't have to think about them, it just happens. Well for me it does. The G-Forces in racing are the hardest part. Most people would physically crack before they mentally cracked racing.

Some people can just do it. It's what they were born to do. Natural affinity. Just like cycling. Some people are naturals on a bike and make it look effortless. Then there are the classless and formless gits, like Froome.

i tell mum "use the force luke" i) you need to know the wheelbase and turning circle, then ii) you "use Force" and Yoga will park it for you, or Obi Wan.

 

[The Hitch]

Isn't Heffernan, the guy who won the 50k today, possibly the most gruelling event in athletics, the same guy who spoke out last year. Maybe this discipline is getting cleaner.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

not better gear or better doping. just given opportunity to be 100% doping, and the cover of Jamaica, not having to "duck and dive" and develop a doping program around testing, and around golden league meets.

basically, the jamaicans, can dope to 100% like the GDR.

now Usain Bolt has reached an Armstrong level of "too big to fail". As long as Bolt does not have a Floyd Landis who can bring him down, he is free.

and i doubt that whatever peptides and testo-similars, will ever show up in a current test. But they may show up in a test 10 years down the road. See: Don Catlin retesting samples that glowed like kryptonite

What are those?

 

[gooner]

Isn't Heffernan, the guy who won the 50k today, possibly the most gruelling event in athletics, the same guy who spoke out last year. Maybe this discipline is getting cleaner.

Yeah.

He spoke out against some guy that got busted last year and who finished ahead of him the European Championships a few years back where it costed him a medal. I can't remember the guys name but he had links with Ferrari and defended the association with him in the aftermath of it.

I was delighted for Heffernan today. I don't know him personally but his family only live over the road from me not too far away and RTE News had it as its main headline today where they were reporting from there. I remember hearing about him when he was a junior. I knew a couple of guys who were in the Togher Athletics Club back then and they were telling me he had everything to get to the top end of the sport. Last year he beat his PB by 7 mins when he came 4th in the Olympics so this year a medal was really on the cards. He said he was in even better shape than back then and if I'm not mistaken I think today was the fastest in the world this year. He's kept persisting at it and it finally paid off.

 

[martinvickers]

Yeah.

He spoke out against some guy that got busted last year and who finished ahead of him the European Championships a few years back where it costed him a medal. I can't remember the guys name but he had links with Ferrari and defended the association with him in the aftermath of it.

I was delighted for Heffernan today. I don't know him personally but his family only live over the road from me not too far away and RTE News had it as its main headline today where they were reporting from there. I remember hearing about him when he was a junior. I knew a couple of guys who were in the Togher Athletics Club back then and they were telling me he had everything to get to the top end of the sport. Last year he beat his PB by 7 mins when he came 4th in the Olympics so this year a medal was really on the cards. He said he was in even better shape than back then and if I'm not mistaken I think today was the fastest in the world this year. He's kept persisting at it and it finally paid off.

It's a very happy day for Irish Athletics. Unlike some larger neighbours, our world class athletes tend to come at 'intervals' and what successes irish athletes can come in the more obscure meeting - world indoors, etc. To have a standard World Champion is a very rare pleasure. To have a guy who, at least on the face of it, is one of the good guys, is just gravy.

 

[sniper]

speaking out against other dopers is en vogue.
don't let that fool you.
it's the new 'I never tested positive'.
athletes adapt.

so objectively: what are the odds of a clean irish guy winning a 50k race at the worlds against doped athletes?