Doping in other sports?

[ray j willings]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bolts-name-missing-jamaican-trials-100m-list-120333054--spt.html;_ylt=AwrXnCYtLIxVYRkAx6.bmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

I'll just place this here

"The 100 and 200 world record holder has struggled for form this year with modest best times of 10.12 seconds for the 100 in Brazil and 20.13 for the 200 in Ostrava."

Now his PBs are 9.58 and 19.19 ...

I truly believe Bolt is clean... this year, at the (nearing) end of his career, aged 28 (peak performance age for most of other athlets).



Now let´s have another look at Carl Lewis as comparison (as I did previously with the 10-m-splits-post to debunk the myth Bolt is/was a slow starter):

PBs 9.97* and 19.75 ...

Translate that to Bolt´s 2015 performances: Would mean in his worst years he´d have run no better than 10.53 (!!) and 20.72 as deep into a year as end of June. Never happened ofc. His seasons did not have such absurd variances.
His worst 100 meter year was basically after ending his career (which was his last hurrah olympic gold at the Atlanta games in 1996): 1997, aged 36, running a 10.51 (he did nothing serious than a last try to win his 4th consecutive gold in the long jump in 1996; in 1997 he did not jump or run 200 meters, and his lone 100 meter race clocked at 10.51 in Zürich was his waving good-bye show act to those who loved him the most: The fans at Letzigrund)...
200 meters; 20.28 in May 1995, aged 34

* I would dismiss his two 9.93s, the 9.92 & the 9.86 as certainly doped after he got into the arms race when nobody Ben Johnson (which he was until 1985) came out of nowhere to "muscle him out" in the 100 meters...

As Tonton said not long ago: Give Lewis the same stuff Bolt is on (was on until 2014. I would like to add), and Bolt stands no chance against Lewis (not exact this words, but in that kind of meaning).

What do you think Lewis was taking? Looking at the Lewis physique he's not been one for hitting the weights hard regarding building his upper body mass. I doubt he was a massive size bulider steroid user.
Maybe THG and Epitestosterone for healing recovery" and maybe something like Cytomel for racing ?

What drugs do you think Bolt has been taking that Lewis hasn't ,that allows Bolt to run faster ?

Be interested to hear your view...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

When Lewis run his 10.00s & 9.99s (at sea-level, he was never a high altidude record chaser like Calvin Smith, Pietro Mennea, or Mike Powell for example), jumped his usual 8.75s, run his 19.8s at around age 20, athletics was a pure amateur sport. So that excludes expensive hi-tech doping. I think he was clean his early years. Maybe steroids "pre-paring" for the 1984 "home" games... Then Ben came: Yellow eyes, bulked up beyond help, and the arms race started (and T&F became a big money earning sport)... I guess HGH when he started wearing braces later in his career.
But I guess no one would doubt here he was one of the greatest athlets ever, if not the best ever at all. Poetry in motion. Naturally gifted (the genes were in the family; all of them world class athlets; the father, the mother, the sister...).
He never had absurd performance jumps (and downs like Bolt has at a "perfect performance age" of 28). Lewis was tremendously constant trou-out his career from age 20 to age 36. The hi-tech dopers of today have destroyed their bodies long before having a chance to built such a 16 years long lasting world class career.
Bolt? Epo (confer > sprinter Kelli White, Balco), HGH, designer drugs, and what the heck else... I guess we have better experts on that stuff here, that can help out.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

When Lewis run his 10.00s & 9.99s (at sea-level, he was never a high altidude record chaser like Calvin Smith, Pietro Mennea, or Mike Powell for example), jumped his usual 8.75s, run his 19.8s at around age 20, athletics was a pure amateur sport. So that excludes expensive hi-tech doping. I think he was clean his early years. Maybe steroids "pre-paring" for the 1984 "home" games... Then Ben came: Yellow eyes, bulked up beyond help, and the arms race started (and T&F became a big money earning sport)... I guess HGH when he started wearing braces later in his career.
But I guess no one would doubt here he was one of the greatest athlets ever, if not the best ever at all. Poetry in motion. Naturally gifted (the genes were in the family; all of them world class athlets; the father, the mother, the sister...).
He never had absurd performance jumps (and downs like Bolt has at a "perfect performance age" of 28). Lewis was tremendously constant trou-out his career from age 20 to age 36. The hi-tech dopers of today have destroyed their bodies long before having a chance to built such a 16 years long lasting world class career.
Bolt? Epo (confer > sprinter Kelli White, Balco), HGH, designer drugs, and what the heck else... I guess we have better experts on that stuff here, that can help out.

Lewis a fantastic athlete. No doubt about it. Johnsons starts were always impressive to watch.

Bolt though has had quite a few injury's. Hamstring seems to be a long running saga , Foot injury, back issues.
Doped or not he has suffered a lot. I doubt he will ever be as fast as he was. But that can account for is inconsistency.

Designer drugs. I just wonder how many Dr's are out there who can administer for a top class athlete.
Its a pretty small world ,small circles. Look at Salazar He's dealing with quite a few athletes and doesn't give me the impression that his athletes are using designer drugs, just drugs that he knows will work " he is old school"
I'm also sure their maybe a few athletes "the older ones" who know what they are doing and don't need anyone.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I doubt he will ever be as fast as he was

I think he is back to his natural level, and what clean athlets can do: 10.2-10.0s, 9.9s for the absolute top guys at the very far right side of a bell curve.
So yes, Bolt will never reach his old levels, may not even 9.8s...

Lewis a fantastic athlete.

Absolutely. Those races were simply a thing of beauty. How he took over everybody else in the last 10-20 meters. And his long jumps: We may never see something like that again. He literally did several steps in the air.
Bo Jackson is another all time genetic "freak". That´s (almost) about it...

 

[Rob27172]

But Surely Lewis was a different body type to other PURE sprinters due to his jumping, In the jumps any extra body mass is pulling him down and causing more drag so leaner is better for the jump but bulk gets you more muscle mass for pure sprinting which is why he was so different in his make up.

However that doesn't preclude him being on certain other sprint related drugs, but i would have put them more in the sphere of the stimulants and catbolics than the steroids arena. Sure maybe low level steroids maybe testosterone to prolong the career and keep the muscle mass he did have.

Usain may just have had to back off of the major areas of doping he may have been on for a couple of reasons - one his injuries as stated if he is not able to train as much he will won't to dial down the steroid use to save piling on weight and then with the increased emphasis on testing in the Caribbean he may just be happy to have a year out of the spotlight to be safe so he can come back for the olymipcs next year and not get busted beforehand.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

But Surely Lewis was a different body type to other PURE sprinters due to his jumping, In the jumps any extra body mass is pulling him down and causing more drag so leaner is better for the jump but bulk gets you more muscle mass for pure sprinting which is why he was so different in his make up.

However that doesn't preclude him being on certain other sprint related drugs, but i would have put them more in the sphere of the stimulants and catbolics than the steroids arena. Sure maybe low level steroids maybe testosterone to prolong the career and keep the muscle mass he did have.

Usain may just have had to back off of the major areas of doping he may have been on for a couple of reasons - one his injuries as stated if he is not able to train as much he will won't to dial down the steroid use to save piling on weight and then with the increased emphasis on testing in the Caribbean he may just be happy to have a year out of the spotlight to be safe so he can come back for the olymipcs next year and not get busted beforehand.

Thanks Rob.
Lewis was (IIRC) a long jumper first, and "happened" to be a sprinter too. Just shows how great he was.
And here is just one amazing feat by the other all-time athletic "freak":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3l_L-VJ3w

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

But Surely Lewis was a different body type to other PURE sprinters due to his jumping, In the jumps any extra body mass is pulling him down and causing more drag so leaner is better for the jump but bulk gets you more muscle mass for pure sprinting which is why he was so different in his make up.

However that doesn't preclude him being on certain other sprint related drugs, but i would have put them more in the sphere of the stimulants and catbolics than the steroids arena. Sure maybe low level steroids maybe testosterone to prolong the career and keep the muscle mass he did have.

Usain may just have had to back off of the major areas of doping he may have been on for a couple of reasons - one his injuries as stated if he is not able to train as much he will won't to dial down the steroid use to save piling on weight and then with the increased emphasis on testing in the Caribbean he may just be happy to have a year out of the spotlight to be safe so he can come back for the olymipcs next year and not get busted beforehand.

That's why I mentioned drugs like THG and Epitestosterone They can heal and repair tissue and something like Cytomel would make sure your going fast on race day. Sprinters of that day were trying nootropics like hydergine. Maybe something like choline, inositol......Instead of the more obvious pure muscle building type steroids.
I don't think Lewis needed much help compared to the other sprinters who were on more Body building type drugs.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Someone at USATF has a good sense of humor, re English Gardner's world leading time in the semis:

@usatf: TEN. SEVEN. NINE. #USATFoutdoors http://t.co/2jWdk17iJ0

.

 

[fenns]

Tyson Gay wins the US trials in 9.88. See Tyson you don't have to dope to run fast!

 

[blackcat]

Re:

But Surely Lewis was a different body type to other PURE sprinters due to his jumping, In the jumps any extra body mass is pulling him down and causing more drag so leaner is better for the jump but bulk gets you more muscle mass for pure sprinting which is why he was so different in his make up.

However that doesn't preclude him being on certain other sprint related drugs, but i would have put them more in the sphere of the stimulants and catbolics than the steroids arena. Sure maybe low level steroids maybe testosterone to prolong the career and keep the muscle mass he did have.

Usain may just have had to back off of the major areas of doping he may have been on for a couple of reasons - one his injuries as stated if he is not able to train as much he will won't to dial down the steroid use to save piling on weight and then with the increased emphasis on testing in the Caribbean he may just be happy to have a year out of the spotlight to be safe so he can come back for the olymipcs next year and not get busted beforehand.

I have been on the record here or somewhere else, that I think Bolt's WR from Beijing or the World Champs in the year or years after, will never be beaten by him, and it will require someone with the long levers to trump it, and the right conditions.

my underlying, no, my overt point was, Bolt was at a sweetspot of power to weight, he was maybe 15lbs lighter, he was really lean, he exploded his ~190lbs from the blocks, was fast to terminal velocity, and his speed endurance and terminal velocity was close to whatever he could hope for, if he just got stronger and more powerful, and quicker.

all of the extra muscle fibres, translated into lbs, to get better terminal velocity, and better sprint endurance, would slow him down out of the blocks. By slowing him down, I am implying, merely 1 one-hundredth of a second, or two one-hundtredths of a second slower. He would need to make that up with the terminal velocity and speed endurance, and it was not like he was slowing down considerably in that WR run.

my point: the extra ~15lbs, has actually slowed him down. But you can only measure that in the few one-hundredths of a second. And the training that Bolt does with his coach, in the gym, and on the track, was/is certain to be the cause of him putting on more muscle, when in conjunction with the adrogen regimen, or the peptides to light up the pituitary endogenous pathway.

Like if Froome was taking too many strength androgens like hgh and testo and other roids, and eating too much protein, and not doing enough miles for the catabolic impact, Froome would be hurt on the final hors category ascents in the Tour, and prolly not get it ALL back on the chrono

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

When Lewis run his 10.00s & 9.99s (at sea-level, he was never a high altidude record chaser like Calvin Smith, Pietro Mennea, or Mike Powell for example), jumped his usual 8.75s, run his 19.8s at around age 20, athletics was a pure amateur sport. So that excludes expensive hi-tech doping. I think he was clean his early years. Maybe steroids "pre-paring" for the 1984 "home" games... Then Ben came: Yellow eyes, bulked up beyond help, and the arms race started (and T&F became a big money earning sport)... I guess HGH when he started wearing braces later in his career.
But I guess no one would doubt here he was one of the greatest athlets ever, if not the best ever at all. Poetry in motion. Naturally gifted (the genes were in the family; all of them world class athlets; the father, the mother, the sister...).
He never had absurd performance jumps (and downs like Bolt has at a "perfect performance age" of 28). Lewis was tremendously constant trou-out his career from age 20 to age 36. The hi-tech dopers of today have destroyed their bodies long before having a chance to built such a 16 years long lasting world class career.
Bolt? Epo (confer > sprinter Kelli White, Balco), HGH, designer drugs, and what the heck else... I guess we have better experts on that stuff here, that can help out.

Lewis a fantastic athlete. No doubt about it. Johnsons starts were always impressive to watch.

Bolt though has had quite a few injury's. Hamstring seems to be a long running saga , Foot injury, back issues.
Doped or not he has suffered a lot. I doubt he will ever be as fast as he was. But that can account for is inconsistency.

Designer drugs. I just wonder how many Dr's are out there who can administer for a top class athlete.
Its a pretty small world ,small circles. Look at Salazar He's dealing with quite a few athletes and doesn't give me the impression that his athletes are using designer drugs, just drugs that he knows will work " he is old school"
I'm also sure their maybe a few athletes "the older ones" who know what they are doing and don't need anyone.

see the problem Liu Xiang the chinese hurdler, and posterboy for the beijing olympics, on money almost as high as Tiger, see his achilles and other tendons just went snap.

And ask Martin Vinnicombe about what the Chinese had him on

 

[Campervan man]

Justin Gatlin is on fire 19.57 in the 200m at US Nats. Bit of an eye opener that from the Valverde of Athletics. All clean now though

 

[Catwhoorg]

Doper Gatlin to beat Bolt at the worlds is the easiest prediction of the summer.

 

[SeriousSam]

Bolt won't run if he cannot beat that time, it's as simple as that. He'll only run when victory is guaranteed. He'll find a way to dope it up to go below that sort of time once again, but it seems you can't just cope carefree in Jamacia these days, like you could a few years ago.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Doper Gatlin to beat Bolt at the worlds is the easiest prediction of the summer.

it puts Bolt's wr's into context.

he was obciously an early adopter of these new androgens or peptides

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Justin Gatlin is on fire 19.57 in the 200m at US Nats. Bit of an eye opener that from the Valverde of Athletics. All clean now though

Ironically in Oregon of all places ...

 

[IamIronMan]

Re: Re:

Doper Gatlin to beat Bolt at the worlds is the easiest prediction of the summer.

it puts Bolt's wr's into context.

he was obciously an early adopter of these new androgens or peptides

Sure does...everyone is apoplectic about Gatlin's 19.57, but then Bolt's WR is 19.19!!!!!!! That is so ridiculously insane.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re:

Justin Gatlin is on fire 19.57 in the 200m at US Nats. Bit of an eye opener that from the Valverde of Athletics. All clean now though

LOLZ ... and his fanboys/girls (if there are any) will tell us, it´s the long-term effects of doping that influence his times now (> confer obscure study blablabla)... Like when I took lots of painkillers for my back and teeth pain, they still work 5 years later.

 

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

Doper Gatlin to beat Bolt at the worlds is the easiest prediction of the summer.

it puts Bolt's wr's into context.

he was obciously an early adopter of these new androgens or peptides

Yes, not the earliest but the one that benefited the most. Gatlin is only now catching up and he was by far the bigger talent at the 100. He is less of a responder though.

That final in Beijing, in fact Bolts whole year, reeked of someone who suddenly had more power than he could control. A little bit like Muhlegg and Froome, but with better technique.

 

[The Hitch]

In the Conte 3 hour piece posted in the Froome thread, Conte talks about SAFP how she in 2007 was 11.19 and in 2008 suddenly like 10.79 or something.

Exactly the same year Bolt transformed from 19.92 I think in 200m to 19.30.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Who is SAFP?

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Who is SAFP?

Dude.

Its
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeKFdR0uGto

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

Who is SAFP?

Dude.

Its
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeKFdR0uGto

Ahhhh... SAF... Didn´t know she married her dealer. In one thing she beats King Carl: Wearing braces wayyyy earlier. And, I would like to add: Much more men-like body around the belt than Harvey Glance, Calvin Smith, King Carl ofc, etc, ever were. It´s revolting in my opinion. Her career will be cut short because of that (sins).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Who is SAFP?

Dude.

Its
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeKFdR0uGto

Doing a Marion Jones. Seems legit.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Doper Gatlin to beat Bolt at the worlds is the easiest prediction of the summer.

it puts Bolt's wr's into context.

he was obciously an early adopter of these new androgens or peptides

Yes, not the earliest but the one that benefited the most. Gatlin is only now catching up and he was by far the bigger talent at the 100. He is less of a responder though.

That final in Beijing, in fact Bolts whole year, reeked of someone who suddenly had more power than he could control. A little bit like Muhlegg and Froome, but with better technique.

The Pantani of sprinting? Technique + ability + potential to respond =