Doping in other sports?

[roundabout]

I didn't know Keselowski was an owner (or that JD was a PED!). But what I find interesting is the relationship between sanctioning body, teams, sponsors, and drivers in NASCAR (and other pro motorsports) and how that informs the culture of substance policy violations.

Even a whiff of impropriety - not even limited to PEDs - can blackball a driver for the balance of his or her career because sponsors will not touch them, and owners have no use for drivers who cannot attract sponsorship.

While I question the rigor of NASCAR's testing, I think the severe consequences of a positive test weigh heavily on drivers who have secured an illusive Sprint Cup ride because they know that they would probably never be let back in the door; even if NASCAR reinstates them. There is some self-policing going on here.

Interesting contrast to the culture within pro cycling where doping and violations are the norm and riders returning from suspension are as eagerly anticipated as MLB players coming off the DL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Hmiel

Here's a guy who tested positive for heroin, got a second chance, then tested positive for marijuana and cocaine, got a third chance and then tested positive again.

 

[gjdavis60]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Hmiel

Here's a guy who tested positive for heroin, got a second chance, then tested positive for marijuana and cocaine, got a third chance and then tested positive again.

Yes, this one driver did get several second chances. He was supposedly rehabilitated after the first offense. He was also the son of an "insider" and I'm sure that had something to do with it. Things didn't turn out too well for him n the end. Most don't get to come back because no sponsor wants them.

I'm not saying that the Frances or NASCAR itself is super-strict (or even that vigilant or consistent). But what I find interesting is the role sponsors and owners (and customers/fans?) play in determining the consequences of drug policy violations and the degree to which this provides an effective deterrent.

After all, we don't just want to catch dirty athletes: we don't want them to cheat in the first place. Just wondering if other sports have models that could help with what has been so harmful to cycling.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I didn't know Keselowski was an owner (or that JD was a PED!). But what I find interesting is the relationship between sanctioning body, teams, sponsors, and drivers in NASCAR (and other pro motorsports) and how that informs the culture of substance policy violations.

Alcohol is banned in Archery/Shooting Sports as a PED. Probably banned in NASCAR and other auto racing out of common sense

 

[Catwhoorg]

Alcohol is banned in Archery/Shooting Sports as a PED. Probably banned in NASCAR and other auto racing out of common sense

I don't think ist banned as a PED per se, more banned on safety grounds
Alcohol is banned in competition in:
Aeronautic (FAI)
Archery (FITA)
Automobile (FIA)
Karate (WKF)
Motorcycling (FIM)
Powerboating (UIM)

all the driving sports, plus archery and karate (but not other fighting sports)

 

[9000ft]

Alcohol is banned in Archery/Shooting Sports as a PED. Probably banned in NASCAR and other auto racing out of common sense

I think we're talking more about recreational drugs here than PEDs that you'd think about in endurance sports like cycling. More of a they want drivers to have a squeaky clean image than "cheating". You don't want your driver who's selling booze and junk food to be a dope smoker, do you?

 

[The Hitch]

Quality program on Ben Johnson's 'impossible' 100m on BBC4 - The Race That Shook The World. Plenty of frank contributions from the main contenders of the time.

Have recorded it!

That was on in Australia last week. Outstanding look at it - but also interesting in that every single other athlete in that race continued to deny use of PEDs. Really disappointing.

There any (none region based) online videos on this?

 

[gjdavis60]

I think we're talking more about recreational drugs here than PEDs that you'd think about in endurance sports like cycling. More of a they want drivers to have a squeaky clean image than "cheating". You don't want your driver who's selling booze and junk food to be a dope smoker, do you?

You don't want him to be a cheater, either.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Are other sports just as bad or even worse than cycling

Worse:
Boxing,
Bodybuilding,
Swimming,
Track & Field,
all major US pro sports,
Wrestling,
Handball & Soccer (if painkiller misuse is included),
Tennis,
Rowing,
Triathlon,
Skiing,
Weight Lifting,
Horse Racing,
did i forgot something?

Better:
Snooker/Billards,
Archery (maybe),
Darts (if Alc isn´t counted as doping ),
Fishing,
Sailing

Cycling has a image problem. That´s all. They are pretty much in the mix. Not better, not worse than the popular sports...

 

[9000ft]

You don't want him to be a cheater, either.

I think you're missing the point. While driving race cars is more physically demanding than many give it credit for, PEDs that are commonly used in more athletic sports are of little value (unless you would count something that would enhance reactions or eye hand coordination) Drug testing in something like motorsport is more oriented toward illegal/recreational drugs or drug use that could potentially impair the driver rather than enhance performance. The issue isn't deterring drug use because it's cheating to gain an advantage, but more to protect the image of the sport - cokehead or pot smoking drivers are not the image the corporate sponsors want to portray.

They may test for PEDs, but I'd be surprised if there is much use of it since they don't give any advantage.

 

[gjdavis60]

I think you're missing the point. While driving race cars is more physically demanding than many give it credit for, PEDs that are commonly used in more athletic sports are of little value (unless you would count something that would enhance reactions or eye hand coordination) Drug testing in something like motorsport is more oriented toward illegal/recreational drugs or drug use that could potentially impair the driver rather than enhance performance. The issue isn't deterring drug use because it's cheating to gain an advantage, but more to protect the image of the sport - cokehead or pot smoking drivers are not the image the corporate sponsors want to portray.

They may test for PEDs, but I'd be surprised if there is much use of it since they don't give any advantage.

NASCAR's drug policy explicitly states that recreational drug use and the use of drugs to enhance performance are both violations. But whether a driver is sanctioned for using drugs recreationally, taking some substance to cheat (as Allmendinger's alleged use of stimulants might be interpreted), or whether they are caught cheating some other way really isn't relevant to the point I'm trying to make. What I find interesting is the vigilance that owners and sponsors maintain against any behaviors from their drivers that might tarnish the marketability of their teams and their brands. It seems to be an effective deterrent against undesirable behavior, which includes cheating via PED use.

 

[tobsie]

http://www.dr.dk/Sporten/OL2012/2012/07/19/163355.htm

Quite interesting, and very detailed...

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

http://www.dr.dk/Sporten/OL2012/2012/07/19/163355.htm

Quite interesting, and very detailed...

"Estoy muy tranquilo"

http://www.superdeporte.es/olimpiadas-2012/2012/07/19/mullera-tranquilo/167841.html

 

[Caruut]

NASCAR's drug policy explicitly states that recreational drug use and the use of drugs to enhance performance are both violations. But whether a driver is sanctioned for using drugs recreationally, taking some substance to cheat (as Allmendinger's alleged use of stimulants might be interpreted), or whether they are caught cheating some other way really isn't relevant to the point I'm trying to make. What I find interesting is the vigilance that owners and sponsors maintain against any behaviors from their drivers that might tarnish the marketability of their teams and their brands. It seems to be an effective deterrent against undesirable behavior, which includes cheating via PED use.

If it were a marketing thing, then they would just avoid testing at all - no positives and no problems. I think the bans on recreational drugs might actually be a driver safety thing as much as anything. I can imagine that after a serious crash, there are a lot of nerves when you come back. Some individuals might find that they just can't drive how they used to, and then they're at risk of losing their livelihoods. In that situation, there must be a lot of temptation to have something just to "calm the nerves", but you really don't want anyone on drink or drugs driving a car near you.

 

[Andynonomous]

Nadal out of olympics.


And so it begins.

Nadal will not have the protection of the (SEVERELY CORRUPT) ITF at the Olympics, so he just avoids the games.

 

[centri]

Nadal out of olympics.


And so it begins.

Nadal will not have the protection of the (SEVERELY CORRUPT) ITF at the Olympics, so he just avoids the games.

Err, okay, I think he dopes, but you know, being the reigning Olympic champ kinda pours water on your theory. A little integrity goes a long way to giving the clinic some integrity.

 

[gjdavis60]

If it were a marketing thing, then they would just avoid testing at all - no positives and no problems. I think the bans on recreational drugs might actually be a driver safety thing as much as anything. I can imagine that after a serious crash, there are a lot of nerves when you come back. Some individuals might find that they just can't drive how they used to, and then they're at risk of losing their livelihoods. In that situation, there must be a lot of temptation to have something just to "calm the nerves", but you really don't want anyone on drink or drugs driving a car near you.

Yes, professional sports - all of them - are driven by marketing. Without a market, without an audience/customers, there is no NASCAR; no pro peloton. Image is paramount in pro sports. The image your sport projects must attract a sufficient audience to bring sponsors. It must pay teams, competitors, and event organizers and generate a profit for stakeholders.

NASCAR has determined that their audience's enthusiasm could be dampened by any number of negative connotations associated with their sport. The body of rules and policies they have established are designed to maintain the image that they believe is most attractive to their audience. Among these are fair, close, hard racing and upstanding, clean-cut drivers. Their rules and policies are designed to maintain the desired image and minimize deviations and lapses. There are secondary demands that also must be satisfied, such as competitor and spectator safety, but all of these contribute to the main goal of building a consistent, sustainable business model.

So all (successful) pro sports must do what is necessary to put on events, attract sponsors and maintain their audience or else - while the sport may survive - the business will not. Sport for sport's sake satisfies a primitive human need to compete and achieve. Sport for money is a business, first and foremost. Imo, the people running pro cycling don't seem to understand the difference sometimes.

 

[Turner29]

I don't think ist banned as a PED per se, more banned on safety grounds
Alcohol is banned in competition in:
Aeronautic (FAI)
Archery (FITA)
Automobile (FIA)
Karate (WKF)
Motorcycling (FIM)
Powerboating (UIM)

all the driving sports, plus archery and karate (but not other fighting sports)

Beta blockers were commonly used in Archery. Here is a rather interesting, but misguided article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/08/in-defense-of-the-beta-blocker/6961/

 

[Paco_P]

Err, okay, I think he dopes, but you know, being the reigning Olympic champ kinda pours water on your theory. A little integrity goes a long way to giving the clinic some integrity.

Count me among those who don't think it is so obvious that Nadal is a particularly egregious doper. However, the circumstances of his withdrawal from this Olympics give me pause - he was to be the flag bearer for the Spanish Olympic team - and he was on Spanish TV news constantly last week talking about what a big deal it was for him to represent his country in such a fashion, blah, blah, blah. Then he drops out for the same reason as always (the knees). It does make one wonder whether he failed a home doping test or something like that ... No point in putting the brand at risk for the sake of a gold medal you've already got ...

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Spanish Steeple chaser caught exchanging dope scheduling and planning with his coach over email.

Details from the email exchange: http://translate.google.com/transla...ww.dr.dk/Sporten/OL2012/2012/07/19/163355.htm

- In early June I will be in a sensible form, he writes with the intention of the European Championships in Helsinki, where he had to sign off with an injury. Soon he will be more concrete about epo-drug Mircera.

- Two weeks before the first competition, I will stop Mircera, right? But if I now being tested, what happens then, says the worried questions.

The coach is not nervous.

- It would be wise if you want to achieve more speed, starting with growth hormone Saizen, which can not be traced. I have some Spanish canoeists who use it for important competitions ... (...), Two months before anything Mircera.

- 50 IU per. kg three times a week before the Dynepo and glutamine to remove traces of EPO. You should have no trouble with the doping control, writing coach, providing Mullera great thing in prospect.

- You can potentially go from last place to win Olympic gold.

Spanish Federation knew about the emails, but said they couldn't pursue any action based on the emails alone. More specifically

"It appears that an email is very easily manipulated and have no legal force. The only combat weapon in the hands of the Federation are doping controls,

(From http://translate.google.com/transla...2012/2012/07/19/mullera-tranquilo/167841.html )

Maybe the Spanish should look into the armory of the USADA...

 

[hrotha]

Spanish Steeple chaser caught exchanging dope scheduling and planning with his coach over email.

Details from the email exchange: http://translate.google.com/transla...ww.dr.dk/Sporten/OL2012/2012/07/19/163355.htm



Spanish Federation knew about the emails, but said they couldn't pursue any action based on the emails alone. More specifically



(From http://translate.google.com/transla...2012/2012/07/19/mullera-tranquilo/167841.html )

Maybe the Spanish should look into the armory of the USADA...

With Nadal gone, this guy should be our new flag bearer.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Other WADA Sports

FYI, all you want to know about other sports that are using WADA in 2010.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=949880&postcount=1

I've been looking/thinking about the data for a couple of days and so far:

-Cycling and Track and Field generate a disproportionate high number of atypical findings. Basically, those are bio-passport violations. No AAF's though....?
-Weightlifting generates lots of straight-up positives.
-The soccer/tennis that WADA tests is pretty clean. I don't know anything about either sport, but I'm assuming the leagues WADA is testing are not the professional leagues.

 

[Paco_P]

Spanish Federation knew about the emails, but said they couldn't pursue any action based on the emails alone. More specifically

Actually Angel Mullera has been removed from the Spanish Olympic team. Emails alone are not much of a basis for a legal proceeding (in any country) - they did what they could.

Also a new Spanish law regulating doping in sports and restructuring the oversight of the same is in process. It will go into effect in the near future, at least provided Spain hasn't completely collapsed. Whether it will do anything is another matter. Probably there won't be any money behind it, since there is no money at all.

What's more interesting is that the replies to Mullera's emails implicitly implicate certain other Spanish athletes - some rowers/kayakers in particular.

 

[sniper]

interview with Werner Franke, German doping specialist.
Some interesting paragraphs.
http://www.dradio.de/dkultur/sendungen/tacheles/1816186/

man muss sagen, Deutschland ist da keineswegs so vorbildlich, wie sie immer tun. Ich würde sagen, in Europa ist ganz klar der beste Stand der Dopingkontrollen bzw. der Bestrafung in Frankreich.

"it must be said that Germany ist as exemplary as they pretend to be. I'd say that in the whole of Europe, the best anti-doping regime (in terms of controls and punishments) is in France."

der deutsche Staat hat immer das eigentliche Interesse, möglichst viele Medaillen zu gewinnen.

"The German state always has the own interest of winning as much medals as possible." (on why it is in fact not desirable to catch dopers)

about Ben Johnson being caught for Stanozolol:

niemand hat bis heute zugegeben und gesagt, obwohl es gerichtskundig ist und auch umfangreiche Aussagen jetzt durch die große Untersuchungskommission von Freiburg belegt, dass große Teile der deutschen Olympiamannschaft dasselbe Zeug genommen haben, Stanozolol.

"up to date, nobody has ever admitted that a large part of the German olympic team was on the very same juice (Stanozolol), even though it has been proven beyond doubt by a Freiburg research committee."

 

[Andynonomous]

Err, okay, I think he dopes, but you know, being the reigning Olympic champ kinda pours water on your theory. A little integrity goes a long way to giving the clinic some integrity.

With WADa's Fahey warning that this Olympics will have more stringent testing, that leaves your comments without integrity.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

World #1 W1500 is out:

http://translate.google.com/transla...a=X&ei=oGANULjuO6no0QHntJXEAw&ved=0CEwQ7gEwAA

Interesting note is that she was tested three times on July 6, and only one of them came back positive... I guess its possible that they were different controls, but still. Luckily, she was only two steps ahead of the doping controls, but AFLD was three...