Doping in Soccer/Football

[Cyivel]

Wouldn't be surprised if a few small fry get thrown under the bus.

 

[Caruut]

Football appears to be on the edge of a cliff. Up until now, fans have been overwhelmingly blind to what really goes on. The FIFA head office must be running on overtime trying to suppress the Puerto documents; football will not be the same again if they get out.

I'm not saying that if they are released it will clean up, or that fans will leave the sport in droves. For one thing, there is arguably more merit in a heavily doped football game than in a heavily doped cycle race. I think that the authorities will do their best to contain it - a few bad apples, the players didn't know so we can't blame them, etc. The change that I think we will see is that fans will no longer assume cleanliness, and will start questioning why the dope controls are so horrifically weak. As with cycling, however, real reform will take time. Much like cycling the sport is run by some of the most unpleasant, corrupt, contemptible individuals you could hope to meet - men who have dedicated their lives to making money of the back of others with less moral fibre than a teaspoon. Those men will never change the sport.

 

[sniper]

Football appears to be on the edge of a cliff. Up until now, fans have been overwhelmingly blind to what really goes on. The FIFA head office must be running on overtime trying to suppress the Puerto documents; football will not be the same again if they get out.

I'm not saying that if they are released it will clean up, or that fans will leave the sport in droves. For one thing, there is arguably more merit in a heavily doped football game than in a heavily doped cycle race. I think that the authorities will do their best to contain it - a few bad apples, the players didn't know so we can't blame them, etc. The change that I think we will see is that fans will no longer assume cleanliness, and will start questioning why the dope controls are so horrifically weak. As with cycling, however, real reform will take time. Much like cycling the sport is run by some of the most unpleasant, corrupt, contemptible individuals you could hope to meet - men who have dedicated their lives to making money of the back of others with less moral fibre than a teaspoon. Those men will never change the sport.

good post. plausible scenario.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The strange thing is most Spanish successes in cycling, tennis, football came AFTER Puerto.

Of course there is doping in football, Zdenek Zeman, just fired at Roma, warned in the nineties and of course was outcasted.

 

[Caruut]

The strange thing is most Spanish successes in cycling, tennis, football came AFTER Puerto.

Of course there is doping in football, Zdenek Zeman, just fired at Roma, warned in the nineties and of course was outcasted.

Yeah, Zeman called out some of the Juve players of the time, including Zidane and the evergreen Del Piero, for their enourmous thighs, didn't he?

One interesting thing football will have to deal with if and when we get a proper doping case coming before us is the question of what to do with titles that were won. Cycling has a simple solution: individuals must vacate their titles. In football, however, individual medals are pretty meaningless to anyone but the players. It is performances and skills that they are judged more on - over his career John O'Shea has won 5 league titles while Robin van Persie is yet to win one. The real winner of a title is not the individuals around whose necks the medals hang, it is the club and the social institution that they represent.

Herein lies the issue for football to deal with - at what point does it become reasonable to strip a team of a title? It is difficult to answer. To borrow an example from earlier, it would seem unfair to Manchester United to strip all 5 titles if O'Shea was shown to have doped during the 5 years they won the league. He was largely a peripheral player, valued for his ability to play anywhere on the backline and willingness to sit on the sideline. It would, in the same vein, be hard not to feel that Arsenal's 2011/12 results were undeserved if van Persie were to have taken PEDs.

How much of the squad needs to be tainted to compromise a result? One could say 50%, but that sets the bar rather high. You could also make a case for stripping results if and when the club could be shown to be complicit, but then you have the difficult situation of what to do if the majority of players (say) test positive and no paper trail can be found back to the club.

Would appreciate all your thoughts on how titles should be dealt with.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yeah, Zeman called out some of the Juve players of the time, including Zidane and the evergreen Del Piero, for their enourmous thighs, didn't he?

You do not do that in Italy with the toyboys of king Agnelli...

Posted it here before on this board, just look at Moreno Torricelli in that period, hell, he made Manfred Kaltz look like a schoolgirl....

One interesting thing football will have to deal with if and when we get a proper doping case coming before us is the question of what to do with titles that were won. Cycling has a simple solution: individuals must vacate their titles. In football, however, individual medals are pretty meaningless to anyone but the players. It is performances and skills that they are judged more on - over his career John O'Shea has won 5 league titles while Robin van Persie is yet to win one. The real winner of a title is not the individuals around whose necks the medals hang, it is the club and the social institution that they represent.

Herein lies the issue for football to deal with - at what point does it become reasonable to strip a team of a title? It is difficult to answer. To borrow an example from earlier, it would seem unfair to Manchester United to strip all 5 titles if O'Shea was shown to have doped during the 5 years they won the league. He was largely a peripheral player, valued for his ability to play anywhere on the backline and willingness to sit on the sideline. It would, in the same vein, be hard not to feel that Arsenal's 2011/12 results were undeserved if van Persie were to have taken PEDs.

How much of the squad needs to be tainted to compromise a result? One could say 50%, but that sets the bar rather high. You could also make a case for stripping results if and when the club could be shown to be complicit, but then you have the difficult situation of what to do if the majority of players (say) test positive and no paper trail can be found back to the club.

Would appreciate all your thoughts on how titles should be dealt with.

Very interesting indeed.

In my book football/soccer is a teamsport. But, it is a very interesting point to phylosophe about. There is a rule in soccer a match will be abandonded when there are just seven players of a team left. Guess we need 4 positives on 1 team to get a team disqualified? How come no four members of teams have to go to the doping control?

 

[sniper]

Yeah, Zeman called out some of the Juve players of the time, including Zidane and the evergreen Del Piero, for their enourmous thighs, didn't he?

One interesting thing football will have to deal with if and when we get a proper doping case coming before us is the question of what to do with titles that were won. Cycling has a simple solution: individuals must vacate their titles. In football, however, individual medals are pretty meaningless to anyone but the players. It is performances and skills that they are judged more on - over his career John O'Shea has won 5 league titles while Robin van Persie is yet to win one. The real winner of a title is not the individuals around whose necks the medals hang, it is the club and the social institution that they represent.

Herein lies the issue for football to deal with - at what point does it become reasonable to strip a team of a title? It is difficult to answer. To borrow an example from earlier, it would seem unfair to Manchester United to strip all 5 titles if O'Shea was shown to have doped during the 5 years they won the league. He was largely a peripheral player, valued for his ability to play anywhere on the backline and willingness to sit on the sideline. It would, in the same vein, be hard not to feel that Arsenal's 2011/12 results were undeserved if van Persie were to have taken PEDs.

How much of the squad needs to be tainted to compromise a result? One could say 50%, but that sets the bar rather high. You could also make a case for stripping results if and when the club could be shown to be complicit, but then you have the difficult situation of what to do if the majority of players (say) test positive and no paper trail can be found back to the club.

Would appreciate all your thoughts on how titles should be dealt with.

what SHOULD (but never is going to) happen if a player tests positive is this: First, the player who tested positive should be threatened with a life-time ban, and be offered milder punishment in exchange for full cooperation with the authorities (naming suppliers, docs, team regimens, etc.). Then, if there are indications of team-wide doping, the team's medical department should be taken upsidedown by police force in search for improper medicins; laptops should be confiscated in search of suppliers and other useful evidence of team-wide doping practices; team doctors, players and staff should be questioned under oath.

In short, if one player tests positive, attempts must be made to determine if we're facing individual or team doping and any measurements should be taken accordingly, i.e. from individual bans to penalties at the club level, e.g. title stripping, relegation, fines, etc.

 

[sniper]

What a coincidence that the betting scandal just broke.

(Didn't somebody just note how the FIFA are probably working overhours to make Puerto go away?)

 

[Caruut]

what SHOULD (but never is going to) happen if a player tests positive is this: the team's medical department should be taken upsidedown by police force in search for improper medicins; laptops should be confiscated in search of suppliers and other useful evidence of team-wide doping practices; team doctors, players and staff should be questioned under oath. Perhaps most importantly, the player who tested positive should be threatened with a life-time ban, and be offered milder punishment in exchange for full cooperation with the authorities (naming suppliers, docs, team regimens, etc.)

This way, it should be determinable if we're facing individual or team doping and any measurements should be taken accordingly, i.e. from individual bans to penalties at the club level, e.g. title stripping, relegation, fines, etc.

All good suggestions. Some cases are easy to think about. I would argue that one squad player who, to all appearances, has taken the wrong over-the-counter medication and so got a positive deserves a ban himself but the team should not have its results annulled. Contrastingly if almost all of the team has been doped to the gills by the club's medical staff, it is hard to make a case not to strip titles.

The devil, as ever in life, is in the details. What do we do in weird situations? A club doctor who gave one or two players banned substances but was rooted out by club hierarchy, for example. It's not widespread, but it is organised. In the opposite scenario, how do you react if the first team have organised a doping ring independently of the club? Promotion and relegation also throw up a nightmarish quagmire. If a team is disqualified, then presumably they would have finished last and hence, for the vast majority of football league, been relegated. What about if a team that would have been automatically promoted miss out - do you then swap them into the higher league?

Anyway, I am both confusing myself and getting ahead of myself - we haven't even had the watershed moment I'm discussing the potential fallout from.

 

[Caruut]

You do not do that in Italy with the toyboys of king Agnelli...

Posted it here before on this board, just look at Moreno Torricelli in that period, hell, he made Manfred Kaltz look like a schoolgirl....
Very interesting indeed.

In my book football/soccer is a teamsport. But, it is a very interesting point to phylosophe about. There is a rule in soccer a match will be abandonded when there are just seven players of a team left. Guess we need 4 positives on 1 team to get a team disqualified? How come no four members of teams have to go to the doping control?

Haha, now that is quite a funny coincidence, if it is one. So potentially a match could be vacated through doping if three players fail a control and one gets sent off? Hmm.

 

[Descender]

Could any Dutch speaker here please translate this?

http://www.vi.nl/nieuws/235429/Westerveld-In-mijn-tijd-geen-doping-nodig-bij-Sociedad.htm

 

[sniper]

Could any Dutch speaker here please translate this?

http://www.vi.nl/nieuws/235429/Westerveld-In-mijn-tijd-geen-doping-nodig-bij-Sociedad.htm

Dutch goalie Westerveld (goalie at RSOC from 2001-2004) symbolizing the (fake?) naivity among football players:
"we didn't need doping, our game was tactical and technical"

"of course before and after the match we received infusions, but that happened openly, so it is hard to believe that they were infusing any banned substances."

classic.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

To be fair, if he was doped it did not affect his game in a good way, what an utter tosser this Blunderveld.

Oops, just my oponion on the guy

Haha, now that is quite a funny coincidence, if it is one. So potentially a match could be vacated through doping if three players fail a control and one gets sent off? Hmm.

Only one player on each team gets to go to the doping control, at the World Cup at least. No doping control at league matches to my according. European Cups I am not sure about I must say, they used to be but I am not sure how it is now.

Footie is not that interesting anymore for me to be honest. I do not like doping, wheter it is in the veins or financial doping, it is still a scam in my book. Let alone the match mixing...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What a coincidence that the betting scandal just broke.

(Didn't somebody just note how the FIFA are probably working overhours to make Puerto go away?)

Betting scandal also concerns Germany for the time being, the country whose press and media has been most aggressive with doping issues in the recent past, breaking the Contador story, pulling out of TV coverage of Le Tour etc.

Regards the regularity of dope tests in football, Athletic Club at least show some transparency by publishing who is tested and when on their site.

Latest news NEWS
MONDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 2013
27 / 01 / 2013
Doping controls, 2012-13 season
23/08/2012, Athletic Club-HJK Helsinki: San José, Iturraspe.
02/09/2012, Athletic Club-Real Valladolid: Raúl, Gurpegi.
15/12/2012, Mallorca-Athletic Club: Raúl and Igor
21/01/2013, Betis-Athletic Club: Gurpegi and Llorente.
27/01/2013, Athletic Club-At.Madrid: Aduriz and Ramalho.

Total

Raúl 2
Gurpegi 2
San José 1
Iturraspe 1
Igor 1
Llorente 1
Aduriz 1
Ramalho 1

The taking of 2 random players at a 2 week interval in August-September, and a week apart in January, I'm on board with. The four months with only one test in the middle however is more of a concern.

The players are supposed to be taken randomly, but it's interesting that the two players to take 2 tests are Raúl (the sub goalkeeper), and Carlos Gurpegui (a guy who actually served a ban for doping offences).

 

[The Hitch]

Only one player on each team gets to go to the doping control, at the World Cup at least.

Ah, so thats what Pepe Reinas role is in the team. Always wondered why he played such a prominent role in the celebrations.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Ah, so thats what Pepe Reinas role is in the team. Always wondered why he played such a prominent role in the celebrations.

Seeing him yesterday blunder like Westerveld it seems that is his role...

 

[buckle]

Jimmy Greaves making light of the past ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fCEGJZlQoc

 

[Alphabet]

They really don't take it seriously, do they? Imagine the uproar if only 1 rider per team was tested during a Grand Tour.

 

[Caruut]

They really don't take it seriously, do they? Imagine the uproar if only 1 rider per team was tested during a Grand Tour.

I think Hog might have died if Sky came out of the 2012 Tour saying "We must be clean, Bernie Eisel passed a urine test!"

 

[observer]

Doping in AFL?

Something is breaking at the moment about the Essendon Football Club, and players signing waivers for fitness programs, taking things that puts them "on the edge"

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ion-over-fitness-concerns-20130205-2dvya.html

 

[The Hitch]

I think Hog might have died if Sky came out of the 2012 Tour saying "We must be clean, Bernie Eisel passed a urine test!"

You'd be surprised how many people would take it as gospel.

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

Doping in AFL?

Something is breaking at the moment about the Essendon Football Club, and players signing waivers for fitness programs, taking things that puts them "on the edge"

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ion-over-fitness-concerns-20130205-2dvya.html

Essendon been caught taking 'enhanced' supplements it seems, or at least someone has suggested it appears. So they are now claiming they knew nothing and are opening themselves up to be looked. Sounds very much like they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar and are desperately hoping pretending to be ignorant will be an effective defense.
Has there been anybody caught since Justin Charles was caught in 1997. Ben Cousins' case was more a drug problem than a doping problem I think. Anyway I do not follow AFL these days so a bit out of touch.

 

[observer]

Essendon been caught taking 'enhanced' supplements it seems, or at least someone has suggested it appears. So they are now claiming they knew nothing and are opening themselves up to be looked. Sounds very much like they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar and are desperately hoping pretending to be ignorant will be an effective defense.
Has there been anybody caught since Justin Charles was caught in 1997. Ben Cousins' case was more a drug problem than a doping problem I think. Anyway I do not follow AFL these days so a bit out of touch.

I don't follow it either, but knowing the Aussie sporting landscape, ignorance would be just a fine defence for an AFL team. The media will focus on the Soccer issue until the doping quietly gets swept under the rug

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

Just heard on a sports radio show here in Adelaide that it is rumored that the supplement Essendon were taking was a synthetic form of testosterone that is not banned yet by WADA but will be in May.
Unfortunately I missed the name of the product and it is only a rumor.

 

[Albatros]

And now even AC Milan may be implicated in Operacion Puerto.

At the bottom you can read

Prevision 2005 (2005 estimate)

RSoc IG x 40.5
Milan IG x 40

That year AC Milan reached the CH L final miraculously losing to Liverpool.

It could also be Milan Baros, a Liverpool player by then with some special needs.

Spanish teams only, sniper?