Doping in Soccer/Football

[Mambo95]

There aren't drugs which help with speed strength and stamina

Carlton Cole has speed, strength and stamina in abundance. Sadly, he doesn't play anything like Messi.

The thing with doping in football is that it can help a team, but it's not really going to do much for an individual. It can make them play longer for more games, but it's not going to turn a journeyman into a world beater.

 

[Caruut]

Barca is using HGH

http://www.irishpeloton.com/2012/02/drugs-in-football-pull-the-other-one/

Perhaps the most interesting part is how they appear to not think the rules apply to them

This is crazy. In a sport when the gossip machine runs so fast that Jose Mourinho even being in London sparked rumours of him being the next manager of Arsenal, Chelsea or Spurs, a comment which, if true, would redefine the entire footballing history of the last few years at the very least goes more or less unreported.

 

[The Hitch]

Carlton Cole has speed, strength and stamina in abundance. Sadly, he doesn't play anything like Messi.

The thing with doping in football is that it can help a team, but it's not really going to do much for an individual. It can make them play longer for more games, but it's not going to turn a journeyman into a world beater.

Again with this amateur to pro transformation argument. in no sport Is an amateur going to become a world beater regardless what they take.

Of course doping will help the individual. you take a skilled 169 cm player and dope him till he matches players twice his size on strength, flies away from any opponent in the blink of an eye, and runs circles around the pitch chasing challenging and running after every ball however hopeless, for 90 minutes without a problem.

No doubt all those qualities are purely natural.

 

[Mambo95]

Again with this amateur to pro transformation argument. in no sport Is an amateur going to become a world beater regardless what they take.

Of course doping will help the individual. you take a skilled 169 cm player and dope him till he matches players twice his size on strength, flies away from any opponent in the blink of an eye, and runs circles around the pitch chasing challenging and running after every ball however hopeless, for 90 minutes without a problem.

No doubt all those qualities are purely natural.

It can improve players slightly (10% at best) in the speed, stamina and strength departments, but it does nothing for the skill and brain aspects.

You can give Carlton Cole all the drugs you like. He'll play longer, harder and for more games than ever before, but he still plays like Carlton Cole, not Rooney or Messi.

Doping will work for teams, but it's unlikely to do much for an individual.

Messi is the best in the world not because he is big (he's not) or strong (he's not) or fast (he's quick, but many are quicker) or possessing great stamina (it's not a strong point for him).

 

[biopass]

Of course doping will help the individual. you take a skilled 169 cm player and dope him till he matches players twice his size on strength, flies away from any opponent in the blink of an eye, and runs circles around the pitch chasing challenging and running after every ball however hopeless, for 90 minutes without a problem.

You forgot to mention he does that twice a week.

 

[Caruut]

It can improve players slightly (10% at best) in the speed, stamina and strength departments, but it does nothing for the skill and brain aspects.

You can give Carlton Cole all the drugs you like. He'll play longer, harder and for more games than ever before, but he still plays like Carlton Cole, not Rooney or Messi.

Doping will work for teams, but it's unlikely to do much for an individual.

Messi is the best in the world not because he is big (he's not) or strong (he's not) or fast (he's quick, but many are quicker) or possessing great stamina (it's not a strong point for him).

Messi is incredibly fast and agile, with very good acceleration. Ultimately, going past players is only effective if they don't catch you up again straight away.

Doping isn't about turning Carlton Cole into Lionel Messi. In a cycling spin, it would be like saying "no matter what you gave Mark Renshaw, he'd be nowhere Pantani, ergo Pantani didn't dope".

On the bolded part: I AGREE. Doping will work for teams. Football is organised INTO TEAMS. Teams which hold players contracts for long periods of time, have stable bases, strong financial backing and huge financial incentive.

 

[Caruut]

You forgot to mention he does that twice a week.

He is already on 49 games so far this season for club and country.

 

[Mambo95]

What about the Italian teams in the 90s. I remember Ferguson in a Champions League semi-final when he said he was going through the tunnel and he could believe the size of the Juventus players legs. Then you had the Roma coach at the time Zdenek Zeman accuse Juventus of taking PEDs. Is it any coincidence they were dominating in Europe back then. For crying out loud Juventus as a club were taken to court. I remember watching a documentary back on Irish tv and it was about doping in Italian football and Hernan Crespo when he was at Parma and Didier Deschamps when he was at Juventus had hematocrit levels in the high 50s.

Is it any coincidence that the Italian sides were dominating in European competitions.

I'm not claiming it's of no use. Across a team it's of great use. What I'm saying is that no amount of doping is going to turn Pascal Cygan into Tony Adams or Gilles Grimondi into Cesc Fabregas . You just get Cygan and Grimondi for more games and for 90 minutes rather than 70.

 

[function]

Not unreasonable to suggest that children who have had hormone treatment should not, as adults, be allowed to be professional sportspeople, though.

How about children who have to take corticosteroids for asthma?

 

[Mambo95]

Would you agree doping would help with that? Its takes a lot of energy and is physically demanding to do that over a whole season.

You certainly won't see me disputing that a team doping programme will be very helpful indeed. It clearly will be.

But, unlike cycling, talent in football is not dictated nearly as much by raw physical attributes.

 

[Caruut]

You certainly won't see me disputing that a team doping programme will be very helpful indeed. It clearly will be.

But, unlike cycling, talent in football is not dictated nearly as much by raw physical attributes.

If that is the case, why do so many players retire when they do? Footballers retire earlier than cyclists, in general.

 

[euanli]

No Messi would always have been a good footballer. The question is were HGH and any other treatments he had have turned him into the player he is now. Undoubtedly they have since his pace and strength on the ball are important qualities. Note he didn't have HGH before he went to Barcelona, they paid for his treatment once he signed for them. It was part of the contract and the reason his parents chose them.

The ability some players have to accurately kick a ball after what is effectively a full out 80 meters sprint is ridiculous.

 

[The Hitch]

It can improve players slightly (10% at best) in the speed, stamina and strength departments, but it does nothing for the skill and brain aspects.

You can give Carlton Cole all the drugs you like. He'll play longer, harder and for more games than ever before, but he still plays like Carlton Cole, not Rooney or Messi.

Doping will work for teams, but it's unlikely to do much for an individual.

Messi is the best in the world not because he is big (he's not) or strong (he's not) or fast (he's quick, but many are quicker) or possessing great stamina (it's not a strong point for him).

I don't know where you found 10% from but with hundreds of thousands pro football in the world its more than enough.

And yes messi is very strong and so are iniesta and xavi who regularly match for strength the 185 cm mids.

Just cos he nutmegs 2 players after wrestling away from the first and being unmoved by pushes and barges from the second doesn't mean its all skill.

Btw you do know barca were caught up in the same op for which you so hate valverde.

You forgot to mention he does that twice a week.

You forget that foitballers don't dope. only cyclists do. its not endurance Its skill. if you could kick the ball like messi you too would have that stamina.

Doping isn't about turning Carlton Cole into Lionel Messi. In a cycling spin, it would be like saying "no matter what you gave Mark Renshaw, he'd be nowhere Pantani, ergo Pantani didn't dope

Very well said

 

[meat puppet]

Before the 2010 WC the Science of Sport tried to wrap up the physiological requirements of top level football in a series of posts that, to me at least, amounted to an interesting read. I can't remember if the authors tackle clinical implications directly but IMO the wall's there. Our task to decide whether there's the writing too. I'd say so.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/06/physiology-of-football-profile-of-game.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/06/football-and-fatigue-discovered.html

There are a couple more, too.

 

[Caruut]

How about children who have to take corticosteroids for asthma?

Isn't that a doctor's note substance for adults as well. We have to draw the line somewhere, do we not? I'm a slightly built 5'9, which is nice for being a bike rider, but I'd be a much better footballer if I was a hefty 6'0. Who knows what would have happened, if I'd had access to HGH during my teens.

You can't ignore the fact that Messi is freakishly hard to derail for a man of his size. That guy is strong, he needs to be to survive the bullishness that defenders give him. Can you honestly say that you can guarantee that the HGH didn't have an effect on making Messi very strong for a man of his size?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If that is the case, why do so many players retire when they do? Footballers retire earlier than cyclists, in general.

Fast turnover of talent, and also making more money, no need to keep on keeping on for so long.

 

[spalco]

I disagree with Mambo95, that pure athleticism isn't as important in football, but there are a number of reason why footballers generally can't compete at the top level as long as cyclists (although there are many example of world class players playing until around 40 years old) - for starters quickness is somewhat more important than endurance, and career ending injuries are quite frequent (you can only rip your ACL so many times before having to quit). Experience is more critical in cycling than in football imo.

The tactics also change very fast in football - a player who's 40 now became a pro around 1990 (!), that's almost a different sport than it is now. And not everybody has the ambition and the mind to be able to move with the times like that.

That said, I'm certain drugs could make a football player competitive until later in his life.

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

I'm watching Man Utd v Bilbao and aside from United being terrible (they're not as good as they think they are nowadays) the glaring thing is how 'fit' the Bilbao boys are... The pundit highlighting the Bilbao players defending their box and a few seconds later 8 of them are attacking the Utd goal. Been going on all game. Looks very suspect to me!

 

[Caruut]

Fast turnover of talent, and also making more money, no need to keep on keeping on for so long.

If you were a top player in a top league, you've made enough to retire on by the time you're 25. Why is it that the superstars go back home or to leagues in the USA, Middle East or Japan once they enter the twilight of their careers? It's because football, no matter what spin you put on it, is an extremely physically demanding sport.

Not just in terms of distances, but (as the article above says) because the body has so many changes of pace and direction. As well as that, the constant impacts on joints, especially in the leg, and especially the knees and ankles takes its toll on the human body. Teams would be mad not to dope.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm watching Man Utd v Bilbao and aside from United being terrible (they're not as good as they think they are nowadays) the glaring thing is how 'fit' the Bilbao boys are... The pundit highlighting the Bilbao players defending their box and a few seconds later 8 of them are attacking the Utd goal. Been going on all game. Looks very suspect to me!

On the other hand, they are a very young team built around pace, and they did suffer for it in the last few minutes when Manchester United were all over them.

It could well be suspect, but no more than how Manchester United are seemingly always able to make their 90+ minute comebacks and have the opposition pinned back with wave after wave of attacks in injury time.

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

Which for me makes it all the more suspect, Utd win so often as Mick McCarthy says because they work so hard. Bilbao made them look like a pub team in comparison! 90th minute, one Bilbao player was on the far side of the pitch just outside his penalty area, Bilbao break, he sprints into the United box, move breaks down, he sprints (knees almost touching his chest) over to cover near the halfway line near side of the pitch! Hilarious!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So it isn't suspect when a team ALWAYS has more energy than the other after 90 minutes, but it is when a team does it once in a high profile game? Like "everybody knows United work really hard, so that's not suspicious, but if a team outworks them it is"? Both teams could well have been at it, probably have it institutionalized at the team and in their leagues. Maybe Athletic were peaking more, maybe United were motivated less, maybe Athletic were just the better team on the night.

The player you mention I think was Íñigo Pérez, though. He came on as a sub with 10 minutes to go.

Nevertheless, Athletic (hardly anybody calls them Bilbao) are one of the few teams with a sanctioned doper on the squad (Carlos Gurpegui served a two year ban for nandrolone in 2002, which was fought and fought; it took about four years to get him sanctioned).

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

I think we'll be going round in circles again.. It seemed like Utd were comprehensively outworked, their touch had gone, they seemed unbalanced, wrongfooted, second to the ball etc.. all the attributes of not being at the same level as the other team. What I am saying is that it's odd for that to happen, whereas ALL of the other team looked so fresh. The guy that was sprinting for so long at the end there (and there were many) wasn't the sub. I would say that I'm doubtful, I don't trust Spanish football teams/ athletes/ cyclists performances as much as other nations. I'd extend that to the Portuguese too. Those YouTube vids you post of the queen stage on Serra D'Estrella are hilarious too.

 

[function]

Isn't that a doctor's note substance for adults as well. We have to draw the line somewhere, do we not? I'm a slightly built 5'9, which is nice for being a bike rider, but I'd be a much better footballer if I was a hefty 6'0. Who knows what would have happened, if I'd had access to HGH during my teens.

You can't ignore the fact that Messi is freakishly hard to derail for a man of his size. That guy is strong, he needs to be to survive the bullishness that defenders give him. Can you honestly say that you can guarantee that the HGH didn't have an effect on making Messi very strong for a man of his size?

Yes Corticosteroids are also used in adults, but the one thing i'd be concerned about is stopping children who had to use WADA prohibited drugs in order to lead normal lives (which would be different from taking HGH just to get larger than the norm) from pursuing an athletic career (and playing sports at the elite level).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think we'll be going round in circles again.. It seemed like Utd were comprehensively outworked, their touch had gone, they seemed unbalanced, wrongfooted, second to the ball etc.. all the attributes of not being at the same level as the other team. What I am saying is that it's odd for that to happen, whereas ALL of the other team looked so fresh. The guy that was sprinting for so long at the end there (and there were many) wasn't the sub. I would say that I'm doubtful, I don't trust Spanish football teams/ athletes/ cyclists performances as much as other nations. I'd extend that to the Portuguese too. Those YouTube vids you post of the queen stage on Serra D'Estrella are hilarious too.

The 2007 one? Yea, that's absolutely ludicrous. Xavi Tondó and an Eladio Jiménez just coming off Puerto can't put a minute into an 80kg sprinter? Pure comedy. I usually post that directly BECAUSE OF how hilarious and ridiculous it is. Cândido Barbosa is one of the most over-the-top chargers of recent years.

But let's not pretend Manchester United aren't just as suspect, otherwise we're going on the whole 'pick on Iberians' tip again. The Spanish and the Portuguese are at it, for sure, but let's not pretend they're the only ones, or that they're somehow worse than everybody else. How is it that if Manchester United have more energy than the other team it's because they work hard, but if Athletic Bilbao have more energy than the other team it's because they must be doping?

Doping is institutionalised in much of football. I'm sure both teams know exactly what they're doing. Athletic were just better prepared tonight, both on and off the field.