Doping in Soccer/Football

[nevada]

I disagree with Mambo95, that pure athleticism isn't as important in football, but there are a number of reason why footballers generally can't compete at the top level as long as cyclists (although there are many example of world class players playing until around 40 years old) - for starters quickness is somewhat more important than endurance, and career ending injuries are quite frequent (you can only rip your ACL so many times before having to quit). Experience is more critical in cycling than in football imo.

The tactics also change very fast in football - a player who's 40 now became a pro around 1990 (!), that's almost a different sport than it is now. And not everybody has the ambition and the mind to be able to move with the times like that.

That said, I'm certain drugs could make a football player competitive until later in his life.

So much depends on the footballer you are. Owen became useless after he broke his leg but berbatov has never been quick. The same can be said of defenders too, terry and Ferdinand are slow but can read a game well. What is clear is that they would all be better with PED's.

 

[Caruut]

So much depends on the footballer you are. Owen became useless after he broke his leg but berbatov has never been quick. The same can be said of defenders too, terry and Ferdinand are slow but can read a game well. What is clear is that they would all be better with PED's.

Ferdinand used to be very quick, and that was one of his best assets. For all we know, an extra 10% might give Berbatov a real advantage. We often hear that doping is about "that extra 10%". Well, that makes a huge difference - to bring us back to cycling, 10% is roughly the difference between Pierre Rolland's winning time on the TDF stage 19 (Alpe d'Huez MTF) and Dave Millar's time in last place on that stage.

 

[function]

Ferdinand used to be very quick, and that was one of his best assets. For all we know, an extra 10% might give Berbatov a real advantage. We often hear that doping is about "that extra 10%". Well, that makes a huge difference - to bring us back to cycling, 10% is roughly the difference between Pierre Rolland's winning time on the TDF stage 19 (Alpe d'Huez MTF) and Dave Millar's time in last place on that stage.

In cycling that 10% is the improvement in power output, which does not mean a 10% reduction in climbing time.

 

[Caruut]

Yes Corticosteroids are also used in adults, but the one thing i'd be concerned about is stopping children who had to use WADA prohibited drugs in order to lead normal lives (which would be different from taking HGH just to get larger than the norm) from pursuing an athletic career (and playing sports at the elite level).

I don't believe that people have an inalienable right to become elite athletes, though. If you have a valid TUI for it, or a valid prescription from ages ago, it shouldn't be an issue. But if kids need these drugs just to lead normal lives, how are they going to become elite athletes anyway?

 

[Caruut]

In cycling that 10% is the improvement in power output, which does not mean a 10% reduction in climbing time.

And you can also factor in the fact that for the rest of the stage, there was probably more wind protection for the back group, etc, etc.

All I was trying to say is that the idea that doping is "just an extra 10%" is often bandied around, but 10% can be the difference between also-rans and champions.

 

[function]

I don't believe that people have an inalienable right to become elite athletes, though. If you have a valid TUI for it, or a valid prescription from ages ago, it shouldn't be an issue. But if kids need these drugs just to lead normal lives, how are they going to become elite athletes anyway?

Do you believe that people have a right to an occupation of their choosing if so capable?

 

[function]

And you can also factor in the fact that for the rest of the stage, there was probably more wind protection for the back group, etc, etc.

All I was trying to say is that the idea that doping is "just an extra 10%" is often bandied around, but 10% can be the difference between also-rans and champions.

I just wanted it to be understood that 10% isn't the difference between the last guy on a mountain stage as people start drawing all sorts of conclusions based on that.

 

[Caruut]

I just wanted it to be understood that 10% isn't the difference between the last guy on a mountain stage as people start drawing all sorts of conclusions based on that.

Yeah yeah, understood.

 

[Paco_P]

I'm watching Man Utd v Bilbao and aside from United being terrible (they're not as good as they think they are nowadays) the glaring thing is how 'fit' the Bilbao boys are... The pundit highlighting the Bilbao players defending their box and a few seconds later 8 of them are attacking the Utd goal. Been going on all game. Looks very suspect to me!

Bielsa is a superb tactician, and wants a job at a big club. He got his side (which is 4th in La Liga) ready to play this one. It seems very unlikely that Bilbao is doping more or better than Manchester, simply because Bibao operates with like 1/10 or 1/100 of the budget that Manchester has.

 

[Paco_P]

It can improve players slightly (10% at best) in the speed, stamina and strength departments, but it does nothing for the skill and brain aspects.

You can give Carlton Cole all the drugs you like. He'll play longer, harder and for more games than ever before, but he still plays like Carlton Cole, not Rooney or Messi.

Doping will work for teams, but it's unlikely to do much for an individual.

Messi is the best in the world not because he is big (he's not) or strong (he's not) or fast (he's quick, but many are quicker) or possessing great stamina (it's not a strong point for him).

You are forgetting a major use and stimulus for doping/drugging - recovery from injuries. I think somewhere fat Ronaldo (the great one) attributed his current thyroid problems (those which have bloated him) to taking HGH and the like after one of his serious, career-imparing knee injuries. A guy like that, whose natural athleticism is key to his stupendous performance (it's not like he was famous for his training) faces a serious problem when he busts his knee. To get back to his old self and his ability to earn millions to pay child support, he gets desperate - and will take anything any doctor says will work -particularly if it does. For another example, another player that I like a lot - look at Eto'o before and after serious knee injury.

As for your main point - it's silly - Xavi on drugs can run longer than Xavi not on drugs - the former has an advantage over the latter - his beautiful passes stay on target in minute 75 when all that ball control starts taking its toll on the other side. A style like that played by Barcelona - cerebral and control oriented - is that which most benefits from marginal increases in stamina.

 

[greatking88]

Ferguson on Bilbao,

"It was an outstanding performance by them, not only in their ability but their energy was unbelievable," he said. "The highest stats of any team that has played at Old Trafford in the last 10 years, in terms of the distance run. That is great credit to the desire of the team."


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/united-must-heed-lessons-from-history-3051122.html

 

[happychappy]

This is the average football fans opinion on dope in football:

all he does is train, eat and rest. He is also at the top end of natural athletics. I know what AAS's and PED's do, and like i said before he could be on HGH, but we'd never, ever know. He would not be on something like EPO, because it would show up in random drug tests.

I mean, check this. MMA fighters get in more cardio training than football players. Some of the go up in mass all the time. Do you think that a lot of them are also juicing?

They just eat more. It's not hard to get in a lot of nutrient and calorie dense food when you don't have to worry about money (it's not hard if you have to worry about money either)

They just eat more!

This one is also good:

I haven't ever seen a picture of a soccer player that screams steroids/PED's - the sport doesn't lend itself to it.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Athletic have scored against man utd again. Clearly doping, this basque team

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Maybe they are. I wouldn't be surprised. But after years of Manchester Utd bombarding goals and scoring equalisers and winners in the 93rd, 94th, 95th minute and more, I simply cannot believe that they're innocent. Not with Nani and Rio Ferdinand on the squad.

Good chance both teams are up to the same tricks, but Athletic Club are just playing better football right now. This match is also a lot more important to Athletic than it is to Ferguson's men, of course, too.

 

[greatking88]

Forget about doping for a moment, the technical ability of Athletics's young players is simply fantastic to watch..

And its a poor reflection on the quality of the premier league when Athletic in 7th position in La Liga are playing with England's champions!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Forget about doping for a moment, the technical ability of Athletics's young players is simply fantastic to watch..

And its a poor reflection on the quality of the premier league when Athletic in 7th position in La Liga are playing with England's champions!

We're discussing it in non-doping terms over in the General forum. To be fair, that 7th position isn't a fair reflection of current form, as they took a couple of months to get used to Bielsa's system, and he took a while working out where he wanted players - Óscar de Marcos has been right back for some of the year!

 

[Michele]

A friend just passed me this article.

Shortly the title say "I cant run anymore".

"I cant play soccer anymore cause I cant run, but now I can walk quiet ok. There has been some time when I couldnt even walk but now its getting better".

He doesnt mention doping but he says that it would be his own fault cause he wanted to play too much.

 

[Red Rick]

Dunno if it's posted already, but it's commonly known and that Messi has been on HGH for years, supported by barca. I think it started when he was twelve, cause they saw this amazing talent in him, but he was far too short. Therefore they gave him HGH, to give him a chance in football. If he was a cyclist he would be dammed by everyone, but in football people seem to think it's a nice story of how barcelona finds talent.

 

[Red Rick]

oops sorry, already being discussed, my fault

 

[Froome19]

Maybe they are. I wouldn't be surprised. But after years of Manchester Utd bombarding goals and scoring equalisers and winners in the 93rd, 94th, 95th minute and more, I simply cannot believe that they're innocent. Not with Nani and Rio Ferdinand on the squad.

Good chance both teams are up to the same tricks, but Athletic Club are just playing better football right now. This match is also a lot more important to Athletic than it is to Ferguson's men, of course, too.

BTW just to say that athletic are basque totally and only abandoned their non-basque rule very recently. (read into that what you like)

Yeh and United score late goals because theyre better than other teams (more fit, stamina) theyre players are of higher quality nothing got to do with anything else.

 

[T_S_A_R]

BTW just to say that athletic are basque totally and only abandoned their non-basque rule very recently. (read into that what you like)

Yeh and United score late goals because theyre better than other teams (more fit, stamina) theyre players are of higher quality nothing got to do with anything else.

...and chris froome is clean

 

[Libertine Seguros]

BTW just to say that athletic are basque totally and only abandoned their non-basque rule very recently. (read into that what you like)

Yeh and United score late goals because theyre better than other teams (more fit, stamina) theyre players are of higher quality nothing got to do with anything else.

more fit and stamina could be to do with doping. After all, fitness and stamina is the reason people are accusing Athletic of doping.

When did Athletic abandon their Basques only policy? I don't recall them doing that. Real Sociedad did, back in the late 80s, but Athletic have never done. The rules may have been loosened to reflect the changing times (so Jonas Ramalho, born in the Basque country to Angolan parents, can play, and so can Fernando Amorebieta, born in Venezuela to Basque parents), but has never been discarded. So I will take your invitation, and read into it what I like, and what I read into it is that you either don't know what you're talking about, or are defending Manchester Utd on the same evidence that you're hanging Athletic Bilbao (fitness, stamina).

Pretty much every top football team knows its way around a doping program. We know that Barcelona, Real Madrid and a couple of other Spanish teams (Betis? Valencia?) were involved in it because of Puerto, and the top Italian teams had some interesting test results back in the 90s too, with Parma, Fiorentina and Juventus. And we're supposed to believe that the Premiership teams that have been all over the CL in the last 10 years can beat these doping teams on bread and water because they do more work on fitness and stamina?

There's a good chance that there has been some doping going on within Athletic Bilbao. I may be a fan, but I'm not totally naïve. They have Carlos Gurpegui on the squad for one thing. But there's just as good a chance if not more of one that there has been some doping going on within Manchester United. After all, they have Rio Ferdinand and Nani, not exactly angels themselves, and they've been going round beating these doped up teams by outlasting them. It's naïve to think that Manchester Utd are paragons of clean competition and just outlast opponents because they're simply superior even when they're facing world class players who are doped up, as they have done on a few occasions.

 

[The Hitch]

more fit and stamina could be to do with doping. After all, fitness and stamina is the reason people are accusing Athletic of doping.

When did Athletic abandon their Basques only policy? I don't recall them doing that. Real Sociedad did, back in the late 80s, but Athletic have never done. The rules may have been loosened to reflect the changing times (so Jonas Ramalho, born in the Basque country to Angolan parents, can play, and so can Fernando Amorebieta, born in Venezuela to Basque parents), but has never been discarded. So I will take your invitation, and read into it what I like, and what I read into it is that you either don't know what you're talking about, or are defending Manchester Utd on the same evidence that you're hanging Athletic Bilbao (fitness, stamina).

Pretty much every top football team knows its way around a doping program. We know that Barcelona, Real Madrid and a couple of other Spanish teams (Betis? Valencia?) were involved in it because of Puerto, and the top Italian teams had some interesting test results back in the 90s too, with Parma, Fiorentina and Juventus. And we're supposed to believe that the Premiership teams that have been all over the CL in the last 10 years can beat these doping teams on bread and water because they do more work on fitness and stamina?

There's a good chance that there has been some doping going on within Athletic Bilbao. I may be a fan, but I'm not totally naïve. They have Carlos Gurpegui on the squad for one thing. But there's just as good a chance if not more of one that there has been some doping going on within Manchester United. After all, they have Rio Ferdinand and Nani, not exactly angels themselves, and they've been going round beating these doped up teams by outlasting them. It's naïve to think that Manchester Utd are paragons of clean competition and just outlast opponents because they're simply superior even when they're facing world class players who are doped up, as they have done on a few occasions.

Lol. owned. totaly.

Lights out.

 

[sniper]

more fit and stamina could be to do with doping. After all, fitness and stamina is the reason people are accusing Athletic of doping.

When did Athletic abandon their Basques only policy? I don't recall them doing that. Real Sociedad did, back in the late 80s, but Athletic have never done. The rules may have been loosened to reflect the changing times (so Jonas Ramalho, born in the Basque country to Angolan parents, can play, and so can Fernando Amorebieta, born in Venezuela to Basque parents), but has never been discarded. So I will take your invitation, and read into it what I like, and what I read into it is that you either don't know what you're talking about, or are defending Manchester Utd on the same evidence that you're hanging Athletic Bilbao (fitness, stamina).

Pretty much every top football team knows its way around a doping program. We know that Barcelona, Real Madrid and a couple of other Spanish teams (Betis? Valencia?) were involved in it because of Puerto, and the top Italian teams had some interesting test results back in the 90s too, with Parma, Fiorentina and Juventus. And we're supposed to believe that the Premiership teams that have been all over the CL in the last 10 years can beat these doping teams on bread and water because they do more work on fitness and stamina?

There's a good chance that there has been some doping going on within Athletic Bilbao. I may be a fan, but I'm not totally naïve. They have Carlos Gurpegui on the squad for one thing. But there's just as good a chance if not more of one that there has been some doping going on within Manchester United. After all, they have Rio Ferdinand and Nani, not exactly angels themselves, and they've been going round beating these doped up teams by outlasting them. It's naïve to think that Manchester Utd are paragons of clean competition and just outlast opponents because they're simply superior even when they're facing world class players who are doped up, as they have done on a few occasions.

good post, but you should allow for the possibility that, in recent years, Spanish clubs have doped with something more powerful than English teams.
At least, the results and the (literally) incredible increase of stamina of Spanish teams in recent years suggest that.

I already speculated somewhere else, that perhaps HGH is much more widespread in Spain than in other countries? Though I'm not sure if HGH correlates with stamina.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

good post, but you should allow for the possibility that, in recent years, Spanish clubs have doped with something more powerful than English teams.
At least, the results and the (literally) incredible increase of stamina of Spanish teams in recent years suggest that.

I already speculated somewhere else, that perhaps HGH is much more widespread in Spain than in other countries? Though I'm not sure if HGH correlates with stamina.

I just said that there's a good chance they all know their way around a doping programme. That doesn't preclude some teams having better doping programmes than others!

Anyhow - countries of teams in last 8 of CL:

2012: Spain 2, England 1, France 1, Portugal 1, Germany 1, Italy 1, Cyprus 1
2011: England 3, Spain 2, Italy 1, Germany 1, Ukraine 1
2010: England 2, France 2, Spain 1, Italy 1, Germany 1, Russia 1
2009: England 4, Spain 2, Germany 1, Portugal 1
2008: England 4, Spain 1, Italy 1, Germany 1, Turkey 1
2007: England 3, Italy 2, Spain 1, Germany 1, Netherlands 1
2006: Italy 3, Spain 2, England 1, France 1, Portugal 1

So actually, it seems that this is the first year in some time that the Premier League hasn't been the dominant factor out there. Maybe the Spanish have improved their doping, or maybe those British teams are just still relying on those same players who've been carrying them for the last decade and are now getting pretty old.