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Doping in Soccer/Football

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Oct 16, 2010
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May 19, 2010
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Freiburger Dopingskandal: Tut doch nicht so bl?d

The recent findings have confirmed the Freiburg doping experts. Actually, it has been known for decades. An honest debate has never existed.

Probably the debate on doping is never done so dishonest. Nowhere uses the phrase, "What must not be, can not be" over here, when millions game of football, the darling of the masses.
What happened to the cycling in the past 20 years, the athletics as well, namely the discrediting of an entire sport due to prominent doping cases that can not happen football. It's too big, too important. Too many earn far too much money on it.
"L?ufst du wie ein St?mper, geh zu Kl?mper"
 
Oct 16, 2010
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in-ffing-credible.

three prominent soccer individuals (Klopp, Scholl and Dutt) in german TV soccer studio asked about doping in soccer, all three deny, one asking "what benefits would that bring?", the other confirming "it would make you a worse player".

https://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/abgeblogged/sehnsucht-nach-sauberen-helden-081355122.html

the piece i linked here continues with some strong observations, e.g. how for f-sake Beckenbauer is not questioned about his claim that those needles they stuck in his arm wasn't doping but multivitamins, adminstered intravenously...
?ber die Substanzen, die Franz Beckenbauer damals in die Blutbahn gejagt bekommen hatte, wusste der "Kaiser" so wenig Bescheid, dass er heute noch genau wei?, dass es nicht leistungssteigernd gewesen sein konnte. Doping? ? Ah geh! Multivitaminsaft intraven?s.

He knew very little about it, but he knew it wasn't doping. "Doping? get outta here. Multivitamins adminstered intravenously!"
it's an interesting development. Several German newspapers and German Eurosport trying to break the tabu and address doping in soccer.
Curious to see how it develops.
As the above example shows, they'll be running into a big brick wall.
massive omerta.
perhaps a guy like Hajo Seppelt (if he's really free of any agenda) could find some anonymous whistleblowers.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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So why were those teams systematically doping then? to get worse? :rolleyes:

I also think that when people make bull**** comments like this it makes them look a lot more guilty than they already did.

For instance, Dortmund now jumped from insanely suspicious to 100% confirmed dopers in my book.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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the sceptic said:
So why were those teams systematically doping then? to get worse? :rolleyes:

I also think that when people make bull**** comments like this it makes them look a lot more guilty than they already did.

For instance, Dortmund now jumped from insanely suspicious to 100% confirmed dopers in my book.
my thoughts exactly (though those two dumb commentaries were not from Klopp but from the other two.)
I didn't see the interview by the way, don't know exactly what else was said.

meanwhile, Swansea City player Gomis collapsed on the pitch tonight.
He seems ok, but an odd incident.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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"soccer: a sport suitable for doping"

http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/doping-eine-dopingtraechtige-sportart.1346.de.html?dram:article_id=313600

sketches recent doping cases in soccer and implies doping is probably widespread in soccer.
to be sure, this is serious German media, not yet another blog that nobody will read.

with audio and text, haven't listen to the audio yet.
the text speaks of Zidane, Guardiola, and Real Sociedad (Xabi Alonso).
About Fuentes:
Angst hatte Fuentes aber nicht vor Radsportlern oder Funktion?ren. Angst hatte er vor dem Fu?ball. Nicht der einzige, der das zu sp?ren bekam. Stephane Mandard, damaliger Chefredakteur der Zeitung "Le Monde", wurde vor Gericht sogar von Real Madrid und dem FC Barcelona auf Schadensersatz verklagt, weil er von Treffen mit Fuentes berichtete.

"Dr. Fuentes hat mir Pl?ne f?r vier der wichtigsten spanischen Fu?ballclubs gezeigt. Es waren medizinische Vorbereitungspl?ne f?r ganze Mannschaften f?r eine komplette Saison."
edit:
good bit of audio as well, provided you understand German.
you hear Memet Scholl answer when asked about doping: "what wuould doping bring? if you take steroids, your coordinations suffers, if you take something for endurance, you'll only get slower". Commentator calls it "quatsch" and "volksverdummung".

furthermore: A Mainz doctor explains EPO brings ca. 10% improvement.

also Fuentes sound bites, telling about the death threats he received.
Stephane Manard tells how Fuentes showed him plans to dope 4 of Spanish top clubs.
Real Madrid and FC Barca sued his *** when he wrote about it.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Mueller Wohlfahrt and son leave Bayern following dispute over recent injury crisis.
According to the report, Guardiola and Wohlfahrt had disagreements over the medical treatment of several players including Thiago.
https://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/bun ... --sow.html

Wow, the Germans are gullible when it comes to football.
Mueller Wohlfahrt, doctor of Usain Bolt among a whole shitlist of clean topathletes.
Bolt quoted as saying "he was more to me than just a doc". Petkovic, when asked why all these star athletes go to Wohlfahrt: "because he has golden hands"...
 
Mar 25, 2013
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Re:

sniper said:
Mueller Wohlfahrt and son leave Bayern following dispute over recent injury crisis.
According to the report, Guardiola and Wohlfahrt had disagreements over the medical treatment of several players including Thiago.
https://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/bun ... --sow.html

Wow, the Germans are gullible when it comes to football.
Mueller Wohlfahrt, doctor of Usain Bolt among a whole shitlist of clean topathletes.
Bolt quoted as saying "he was more to me than just a doc". Petkovic, when asked why all these star athletes go to Wohlfahrt: "because he has golden hands"...
I'm not surprised it has come to this.

I was reading Marti Perarnau's book a few months back where Guardiola gave him unlimited access around the club in his first season at Bayern. He's good friends with Guardiola. He said Guardiola wasn't happy that Mueller Wohlfahrt wasn't full-time around the club on training days. Wohlfahrt worked those days in his own clinic in the city and if a Bayern player got injured he has to go there.

Guardiola didn't like this arrangement from the outset when he first took over.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

gooner said:
sniper said:
Mueller Wohlfahrt and son leave Bayern following dispute over recent injury crisis.
According to the report, Guardiola and Wohlfahrt had disagreements over the medical treatment of several players including Thiago.
https://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/bun ... --sow.html

Wow, the Germans are gullible when it comes to football.
Mueller Wohlfahrt, doctor of Usain Bolt among a whole shitlist of clean topathletes.
Bolt quoted as saying "he was more to me than just a doc". Petkovic, when asked why all these star athletes go to Wohlfahrt: "because he has golden hands"...
I'm not surprised it has come to this.

I was reading Marti Perarnau's book a few months back where Guardiola gave him unlimited access around the club in his first season at Bayern. He's good friends with Guardiola. He said Guardiola wasn't happy that Mueller Wohlfahrt wasn't full-time around the club on training days. Wohlfahrt worked those days in his own clinic in the city and if a Bayern player got injured he has to go there.

Guardiola didn't like this arrangement from the outset when he first took over.
When Benatia got injured during the game against Bayer Leverkusen, Guardiola cynically applauded straight in the face of Mueller Wohlfahrt in the dugout. You can see it here when you scroll down a bit:
https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/bun ... --sow.html
What you point out is correct. The new arrangment was that Mueller Wohlfahrt's son came to the training every day in place of his dad. But clearly Guardiola still wasn't happy so I guess there was more unhappiness between them that we may not hear of.
Perhaps Guardiola wants to bring in his own doctors.
I wonder which of the two is more 'conservative', M-W or Guardiola.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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according to this eurosport piece, Mueller Wohlfahrt was in favor of "softer healing methods" (whatever the *** that means), whereas Guardiola preferred "more aggressive methods such as cortisone".
Müller-Wohlfahrt bevorzugte sanftere Heilmethoden, Guardiola setzt auf aggressivere Behandlungen durch Cortison.
https://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/bun ... --sow.html

I don't doubt Guardiola is an all-the-way kind of guy, as far as preparation is concerned.
But Bayern's resurgence started well before he arrived, with all players developing incredible stamina already in the 2011-2012 season, then peaking in 2013. Under Guardiola, I didn't see any spectacular physical changes and the players' stamina remained relatively stable compared to the Heynckes period.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
gooner said:
sniper said:
Mueller Wohlfahrt and son leave Bayern following dispute over recent injury crisis.
According to the report, Guardiola and Wohlfahrt had disagreements over the medical treatment of several players including Thiago.
https://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/bun ... --sow.html

Wow, the Germans are gullible when it comes to football.
Mueller Wohlfahrt, doctor of Usain Bolt among a whole shitlist of clean topathletes.
Bolt quoted as saying "he was more to me than just a doc". Petkovic, when asked why all these star athletes go to Wohlfahrt: "because he has golden hands"...
I'm not surprised it has come to this.

I was reading Marti Perarnau's book a few months back where Guardiola gave him unlimited access around the club in his first season at Bayern. He's good friends with Guardiola. He said Guardiola wasn't happy that Mueller Wohlfahrt wasn't full-time around the club on training days. Wohlfahrt worked those days in his own clinic in the city and if a Bayern player got injured he has to go there.

Guardiola didn't like this arrangement from the outset when he first took over.
When Benatia got injured during the game against Bayer Leverkusen, Guardiola cynically applauded straight in the face of Mueller Wohlfahrt in the dugout. You can see it here when you scroll down a bit:
https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/bun ... --sow.html
What you point out is correct. The new arrangment was that Mueller Wohlfahrt's son came to the training every day in place of his dad. But clearly Guardiola still wasn't happy so I guess there was more unhappiness between them that we may not hear of.
Perhaps Guardiola wants to bring in his own doctors.
I wonder which of the two is more 'conservative', M-W or Guardiola.
So Ramon Segura will join to Bayern?
 
Mueller Wohlharts absence was so obvious yesterday. Bayern got absolutely smashed by whoever replaced Fuentes up in Catalunya. Even before Barca scored, it was obvious their players had 3 times the horsepower. If a Barca player was within 20m of a Bayern player when a pass was made, the Barca player would get to the ball before the Bayern player received it.

Guardiola is a bigger joke than Armstrong. Without his doping doctor can't do ***.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Mueller Wohlharts absence was so obvious yesterday. Bayern got absolutely smashed by whoever replaced Fuentes up in Catalunya. Even before Barca scored, it was obvious their players had 3 times the horsepower. If a Barca player was within 20m of a Bayern player when a pass was made, the Barca player would get to the ball before the Bayern player received it.

Guardiola is a bigger joke than Armstrong. Without his doping doctor can't do ****.
I don't think it's this straightforward.
1. they did slam FC Porto 6-1 without MW.
2. most players continue to be treated by MW
3. the absence of Robben, Ribery and Alaba for Bayern would be comparable to the absence of Messi, Neymar and Alves for Barca. Plus, you have guys like Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Lewandowski and Benatia who all only just recovered from quite serious injuries. (Considering this, I thought Bayern actually still looked pretty decent yesterday. Better than I had expected.)
 
Jul 21, 2012
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pretty sure most of the manager hype in modern football is media created narratives. In reality they're all doing more or less the same things and I doubt it matters much who manages these top teams.

If you have a team with insanely fast and technical players who can press relentlessly for 90 minutes youre going to win no matter what.
 
Re:

the sceptic said:
pretty sure most of the manager hype in modern football is media created narratives. In reality they're all doing more or less the same things and I doubt it matters much who manages these top teams.

If you have a team with insanely fast and technical players who can press relentlessly for 90 minutes youre going to win no matter what.
Glad to see someone else thinks this. Ive been saying it for years, on here, in real life, to friends etc and always been shut down by people telling me I don't understand managment and how great they are bla bla bla.

The way I have always seen it is, if intelligence was so important in football, you wouldn't have the dumbest people on earth - former footballers, taking up almost all the top spots.

People get hired based on media profile. In many cases their high media profile owes far more to their on field achievements than any actual managment experience. But they get hired anyway. Why? Because who you are, is far more important than any actual job you do. Play messi up front and ter stegen in goal. What an einstein you must be to figure that out.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
the sceptic said:
pretty sure most of the manager hype in modern football is media created narratives. In reality they're all doing more or less the same things and I doubt it matters much who manages these top teams.

If you have a team with insanely fast and technical players who can press relentlessly for 90 minutes youre going to win no matter what.
Glad to see someone else thinks this. Ive been saying it for years, on here, in real life, to friends etc and always been shut down by people telling me I don't understand managment and how great they are bla bla bla.

The way I have always seen it is, if intelligence was so important in football, you wouldn't have the dumbest people on earth - former footballers, taking up almost all the top spots.

People get hired based on media profile. In many cases their high media profile owes far more to their on field achievements than any actual managment experience. But they get hired anyway. Why? Because who you are, is far more important than any actual job you do. Play messi up front and ter stegen in goal. What an einstein you must be to figure that out.
sure thing, coaches are overrated.
but you made a point about MW being at the core of Bayern's results, and Bayern's current dip in form being a result of his departure. There might be, but there aren't yet any clear indications to that extent. It's way too early to tell.
In addition to my previous post, remember that Bayern got slammed last year in the semi's by Real Madrid. MW was there.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
the sceptic said:
pretty sure most of the manager hype in modern football is media created narratives. In reality they're all doing more or less the same things and I doubt it matters much who manages these top teams.

If you have a team with insanely fast and technical players who can press relentlessly for 90 minutes youre going to win no matter what.
Glad to see someone else thinks this. Ive been saying it for years, on here, in real life, to friends etc and always been shut down by people telling me I don't understand managment and how great they are bla bla bla.

The way I have always seen it is, if intelligence was so important in football, you wouldn't have the dumbest people on earth - former footballers, taking up almost all the top spots.

People get hired based on media profile. In many cases their high media profile owes far more to their on field achievements than any actual managment experience. But they get hired anyway. Why? Because who you are, is far more important than any actual job you do. Play messi up front and ter stegen in goal. What an einstein you must be to figure that out.
another example is Chelsea. They never get long term injuries and their key players almost never injured. And they still rarely suffer from fatigue. Compare with Arsenal who are basically the opposite and I'm pretty sure having the best medical team is a lot more important to whatever impact your manager can have.

Of course it's pointless to try and discuss this with the average football fan, since the concept of doping hardly exists in their minds in the first place.
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
The Hitch said:
the sceptic said:
pretty sure most of the manager hype in modern football is media created narratives. In reality they're all doing more or less the same things and I doubt it matters much who manages these top teams.

If you have a team with insanely fast and technical players who can press relentlessly for 90 minutes youre going to win no matter what.
Glad to see someone else thinks this. Ive been saying it for years, on here, in real life, to friends etc and always been shut down by people telling me I don't understand managment and how great they are bla bla bla.

The way I have always seen it is, if intelligence was so important in football, you wouldn't have the dumbest people on earth - former footballers, taking up almost all the top spots.

People get hired based on media profile. In many cases their high media profile owes far more to their on field achievements than any actual managment experience. But they get hired anyway. Why? Because who you are, is far more important than any actual job you do. Play messi up front and ter stegen in goal. What an einstein you must be to figure that out.
sure thing, coaches are overrated.
but you made a point about MW being at the core of Bayern's results, and Bayern's current dip in form being a result of his departure. There might be, but there aren't yet any clear indications to that extent. It's way too early to tell.
In addition to my previous post, remember that Bayern got slammed last year in the semi's by Real Madrid. MW was there.
As I said I was reffering to the performance not the score. I had already decided to make the post half way through the first half, long before Barca scored.

And I was commenting more on Barcas dominance than Bayern's inferiority. Originally I had forgotten that MW had left Bayern and I came here to say that whoever replaced Fuentes is better than MW. Then when I saw the posts about MW leaving I thought that maybe thats the reason.

Either way Barca are just ridiculous. Their players play every single game twice a week, 90 minutes and just sprint and sprint and sprint. Messi is phenomenal but then again so was Armstrong.

If we were to do an all time sport doping draft it would be a toss up for me between Barcelona 2015, Barcelona 2009 and Usain Bolt 2009 for the #1 spot.
 
Mar 27, 2014
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Hitch

I would agree with what you say regarding managers on the field,
But that is not what a modern soccer manager really does these days
If you spend time around a top club you realise the training and management of the players technical ability and the game plan is not really in the managers hands, that is done by the coaches.
The manager is there to do two things
To look at the upcoming opposition and find the right system and players to counteract the opposition on the day. This is the tactical aspect and usually has nothing to do with the star players but the second string, I.E who is going to be able to handle the physical side of playing against X; who has the speed to stay with Y winger; Who on the squad can be a hard man and stamp on a couple of people early on against a team that want's to push you around.
The second and most important aspect is to then manage these bunches of diva's and keep the two or three stars and their supporting cast happy while they are being rotated and played / dropped. Without them running off to their agents and trying to get moved on to another club.
When you look at the great managers that is what they do, Sir Alex wasn't the best manager at a technical level and was a poor footballer in his time, but he ruled the club and made sure no-one got too big for the club and if they did he moved them on. He also played mind games with opposition and referees better than anyone and destroyed some managers completely.
Mourinho; love him or hate him can do a very similar thing. It is one of the reasons he left Chelsea last time as the top players were getting protection from on high and he wasn't able to read them the riot act when necessary.
Then look at Wenger who would never read anyone a bed time story let alone a riot act.

I don't disagree on the drugs aspect at all - they are doped to the eyeballs. Lets not forget drawing blood and storing it so it can be re-infused during an injury to help with recovery is completely legal in football and something all top clubs do.

Just wanted to point out why top managers are who they are and what they bring to the game for their clubs.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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two deaths by heart attack in belgian soccer in recent weeks.
both just collapsed on the pitch.

of course nobody asking questions.
that would probably be seen as 'disrespectful', just like we're not supposed to question Txema's death in 2010.
 
Umm of course no one is asking questions. For god sakes are you some sort of sociopath who is incapable of feeling normal human emotion. Death is extremely emotional, it is absolutely not a good idea to start asking these questions while the family, team, friends are grieving and cause a lot of people more pain. For what gain?

Why do you care anyway. If they were doping and you are so against that then the death itself would be punishment enough, its not necessary to pile on with accusations that serve purely to hurt the family.

They didn't exactly gain anything out of it if they were doping. I could kind of understand if it was someone like Armstrong who made a fortune from doping and hurt a lot of people in the process, but people you didn't even hear of?

And doping isn't some massive sin that is worth disturbing the mourning process for the loved ones.

I'm pretty sure plenty of people here will take the statistics of another 2 sds deaths (if it was sds) into account when making the arguments we have seen here before about how the deaths in football have increased over the last 2 decades. But that doesn't mean directly going after people who die on the football field the day after it happens.

that would probably be seen as 'disrespectful', just like we're not supposed to question Txema's death in 2010.
Weren't you the guy who was also asking questions of Tondo's death?
 
Mar 25, 2013
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Aaron McCarey with Wolves and Jose Baxter with Sheffield United both fail tests. One noticeable difference I spotted between both club statements was while Wolves mention a non PED substance, Sheffield United mention "traces of a banned substances" but refrain from saying it was not a PED.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/aaron-mccarey-strenuously-denies-deliberately-taking-any-banned-substances-1.2215552

EDIT: A local paper in Sheffield now claiming it's ecstasy. Strange why they weren't more clear to the nature of the substance as Wolves were in their statement.

http://m.thestar.co.uk/sport/sheff-utd/breaking-jose-baxter-suspended-by-sheffield-united-after-testing-positive-for-ecstasy-1-7264589
 

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