Doping in Soccer/Football

[Frosty]

Old football was rubbish.

but not as rubbish as Andy Cole

(for those who dont understand that its a reference to a UK TV program called Fantasy Football League)

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

I used to watch Waddle at Newcastle, exceptionally skilled player who was always going to good enough to play for ENgland, I remember his passing ability stood out massively as did his dribbling, never good at pelanties though.

Anyway here is what he said about his time at Marseille

Waddle was supremely skillful, but incredibly lazy. Think Berbatov.

Anyhow, Tony Cascarino has also commented on "injections" given whilst he was at OM. As his biography was done by Kimmage, he know thinks they were PEDs

 

[unclem0nty]

Naive at best to believe that professionals in a "skilful" sport like football have no incentive to dope.

Technical skill has never been the dominant prerequisite for a career in professional football. Glenn Hoddle, one of the most technically proficient English footballers of all time, used to say that his younger brother Carl was the true talent in the family, but missed out on a top-flight career as he "lacked a yard of pace".

If skill was everything, all those YouTube keepy-uppy trick-wizards would be playing for Barcelona. There must be hundreds of backyard football geniuses around the world who could show Lionel Messi a thing or two, but all of them "lack a yard of pace". Or they're too lazy, or weak, or fat.

Football is an increasingly physical sport. As many have noted in this thread, Barcelona's success is just as much to do with "pressing the opposition" as it is about their own technical prowess. Every time an opposing player has the ball, he's almost instantly closed down by two or more Barca players. That isn't a skill, that's a tribute to immense stamina. As indeed is the ability to retain mastery of close control and tight passing right up to the end of the game, when players in years gone by would have been reduced to weary hoofing and clumsy first touches.

Judging from the buzzing relentlessness of the modern game, I'd honestly be amazed if all the top clubs in Europe weren't running pretty high-level Fuentes-pattern programmes.

 

[sniper]

Naive at best to believe that professionals in a "skilful" sport like football have no incentive to dope.

Technical skill has never been the dominant prerequisite for a career in professional football. Glenn Hoddle, one of the most technically proficient English footballers of all time, used to say that his younger brother Carl was the true talent in the family, but missed out on a top-flight career as he "lacked a yard of pace".

If skill was everything, all those YouTube keepy-uppy trick-wizards would be playing for Barcelona. There must be hundreds of backyard football geniuses around the world who could show Lionel Messi a thing or two, but all of them "lack a yard of pace". Or they're too lazy, or weak, or fat.

Football is an increasingly physical sport. As many have noted in this thread, Barcelona's success is just as much to do with "pressing the opposition" as it is about their own technical prowess. Every time an opposing player has the ball, he's almost instantly closed down by two or more Barca players. That isn't a skill, that's a tribute to immense stamina. As indeed is the ability to retain mastery of close control and tight passing right up to the end of the game, when players in years gone by would have been reduced to weary hoofing and clumsy first touches.

Judging from the buzzing relentlessness of the modern game, I'd honestly be amazed if all the top clubs in Europe weren't running pretty high-level Fuentes-pattern programmes.

most of your post has been observed plenty of times already.
suffice it to ask yourself: why wouldn't footballplayers dope?

the game has become so physically demanding, it's alsmost scary. the physically and mentally fittest guys prevail. Christiano Ronaldo is the ultimate example. His technical skills are not above average, in my honest opinion, but he compensates that with incredible physical abilities and training.

 

[hrotha]

It's not even about being naive anymore. It's about being ignorant of the history of the sport and the rather large list of well-established doping cases.

 

[sniper]

true story.

 

[del1962]

Naive at best to believe that professionals in a "skilful" sport like football have no incentive to dope.

Technical skill has never been the dominant prerequisite for a career in professional football. Glenn Hoddle, one of the most technically proficient English footballers of all time, used to say that his younger brother Carl was the true talent in the family, but missed out on a top-flight career as he "lacked a yard of pace".

If skill was everything, all those YouTube keepy-uppy trick-wizards would be playing for Barcelona. There must be hundreds of backyard football geniuses around the world who could show Lionel Messi a thing or two, but all of them "lack a yard of pace". Or they're too lazy, or weak, or fat.

Football is an increasingly physical sport. As many have noted in this thread, Barcelona's success is just as much to do with "pressing the opposition" as it is about their own technical prowess. Every time an opposing player has the ball, he's almost instantly closed down by two or more Barca players. That isn't a skill, that's a tribute to immense stamina. As indeed is the ability to retain mastery of close control and tight passing right up to the end of the game, when players in years gone by would have been reduced to weary hoofing and clumsy first touches.

Judging from the buzzing relentlessness of the modern game, I'd honestly be amazed if all the top clubs in Europe weren't running pretty high-level Fuentes-pattern programmes.

No one is denying that there is no incentive to dope, but that there would have been less pressure to dope than say in cycling in the 90s early 2000s, because skillful players could and still can make a good living (better than the highest paid cyclists) without having to dope, so less incentive to take the risk, this doesnt mean there is no doping in football as born out by the facts, but was / is probably not as widespread as pure endurance and power sports

 

[iejeecee]

there would have been less pressure to dope than say in cycling in the 90s early 2000s, because skillful players could and still can make a good living (better than the highest paid cyclists) without having to dope

I don't know how you would know that. Salaries in football are very top heavy. The salaries in second or worse divisions are pretty poor. Also the competition in football is a million times stronger as in cycling. It is literally the worlds game, with players coming from everywhere. You are not going to succeed in a decent league with a decent salary, if all you are is technically gifted.

They will simply pick someone else who is just as gifted but has the physique to match. So why would you not help yourself a bit by taking some steroids or epo? There is almost zero chance to get caught, and that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is so enticing.

 

[zebedee]

The principal architect of Barcelona F.C's high-tempo approach to the game was none other than a doper himself - Pep Guardiola.

Popped for nandrolone in his playing days with Brescia, he must surely know a thing or two about steroid abuse, both in performance and recovery.

 

[unclem0nty]

No one is denying that there is no incentive to dope, but that there would have been less pressure to dope than say in cycling in the 90s early 2000s, because skillful players could and still can make a good living (better than the highest paid cyclists) without having to dope, so less incentive to take the risk, this doesnt mean there is no doping in football as born out by the facts, but was / is probably not as widespread as pure endurance and power sports

To the member who implied that the point I made in my previous post had been done to death, here's why I made it.

Even many Clinic regulars still seem reluctant to accept that systematic, top-end doping is the norm at the highest level of football. As the first answer to the post quoted above emphasises, the bottom line is the bottom line. Far too much cash involved for elite clubs to even consider NOT doping. More speed/strength/stamina, faster recovery, fewer injuries - doping offers a massive competitive advantage, and once the "everyone-else-is-at-it" mentality bedded in post-Puerto, any moral disincentive (hollow laughter) was removed.

Arsene Wenger is the only top-level coach to have even hinted at a widespread doping culture in the sport, and in critical terms. That was a while ago, but I sometimes wonder if there's any connection between his apparent lone stand against doping and his club's steady decline over recent years.

 

[JimmyFingers]

To the member who implied that the point I made in my previous post had been done to death, here's why I made it.

Even many Clinic regulars still seem reluctant to accept that systematic, top-end doping is the norm at the highest level of football. As the first answer to the post quoted above emphasises, the bottom line is the bottom line. Far too much cash involved for elite clubs to even consider NOT doping. More speed/strength/stamina, faster recovery, fewer injuries - doping offers a massive competitive advantage, and once the "everyone-else-is-at-it" mentality bedded in post-Puerto, any moral disincentive (hollow laughter) was removed.

Arsene Wenger is the only top-level coach to have even hinted at a widespread doping culture in the sport, and in critical terms. That was a while ago, but I sometimes wonder if there's any connection between his apparent lone stand against doping and his club's steady decline over recent years.

He's repeated his criticism and called for more testing last month:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...elled-legends-and-needs-to-be-cleaned-up.html

“It’s a real tsunami,” he said. “I can’t accept it and I always was a believer that there’s a lot of cheating going on in our game and that we are not strong enough with what happens, nor with the doping, nor with the corruption of the referees, nor with the match fixing. It’s time that we tackle this problem in a very serious way and that people who cheat are punished in a very severe way.

 

[will10]

To the member who implied that the point I made in my previous post had been done to death, here's why I made it.

Even many Clinic regulars still seem reluctant to accept that systematic, top-end doping is the norm at the highest level of football. As the first answer to the post quoted above emphasises, the bottom line is the bottom line. Far too much cash involved for elite clubs to even consider NOT doping. More speed/strength/stamina, faster recovery, fewer injuries - doping offers a massive competitive advantage, and once the "everyone-else-is-at-it" mentality bedded in post-Puerto, any moral disincentive (hollow laughter) was removed.

Arsene Wenger is the only top-level coach to have even hinted at a widespread doping culture in the sport, and in critical terms. That was a while ago, but I sometimes wonder if there's any connection between his apparent lone stand against doping and his club's steady decline over recent years.

Of course recently we had Villas-Boas talking about blood manipulation to improve Defoe's recovery from injury like it was the most normal thing in the world.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

The **** is already hitting the fan people are questioning why soccer players are dropping dead from heart attacks.

Most soccer players are on a heart attack cocktail;

Steroids cause cardiomyopathy (observed in the death of Marc Vivien Foe) in addition to atherosclerosis, EPO causes polycythemia which increases risk of clots, stimulants make the heart beat faster but can stretch valves of the heart and can cause arhthymia's.

I can't think of another sport which has quite the incentive to use all three and with testing poor enough to allow it except maybe tennis. In sprinting EPO is used mildly and kept in check due to testing and in road cycling anabolics are kept to a minimum.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The **** is already hitting the fan people are questioning why soccer players are dropping dead from heart attacks.

Most soccer players are on a heart attack cocktail;

Steroids cause cardiomyopathy (observed in the death of Marc Vivien Foe) in addition to atherosclerosis, EPO causes polycythemia which increases risk of clots, stimulants make the heart beat faster but can stretch valves of the heart and can cause arhthymia's.

I can't think of another sport which has quite the incentive to use all three and with testing poor enough to allow it except maybe tennis. In sprinting EPO is used mildly and kept in check due to testing and in road cycling anabolics are kept to a minimum.

Interesting. Puts Muwamba's recent collapse into some sort of context, whether it was genuine or a result of a combination of drugs is something I'm guessing we'll never know, given patient confidentiality.

 

[unclem0nty]

The increasing incidence of heart attacks among pro players has raised a few red flags, but I sense there'll sadly have to be a few more fatalities - or an episode involving a huge name - before the sporting public wakes up and starts demanding an explanation.

It's been noticeable that most of the cardiac incidents to date have involved players from clubs just below the elite level - the type of clubs that mightn't be able to finance a properly-monitored high-end doping programme, or whose players might feel obliged to self-medicate. I'm reminded of the club cyclists who suffered fatal cardiac arrests in the early EPO days.

Villas-Boas's Tottenham have certainly been conspicuously energetic of late. They made Arsenal look lethargic last weekend, and last night buzzed all over Inter Milan for 90 minutes. There was an incident near the end when three Spurs players rushed over to the byline to harry an Inter defender back down the pitch. Extraordinary spectacle.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

This Wikipedia article lists the number of deaths during soccer matches. It's up for debate as to how valid this is as some deaths may have flown under the radar and if that's the case it's more likely that it happened 20 years ago than now.

Nevertheless, there is a sharp increase in the number of deaths during matches around 2000 with, I have to think, little increase in the number of participants.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing

 

[JimmyFingers]

The increasing incidence of heart attacks among pro players has raised a few red flags, but I sense there'll sadly have to be a few more fatalities - or an episode involving a huge name - before the sporting public wakes up and starts demanding an explanation.

It's been noticeable that most of the cardiac incidents to date have involved players from clubs just below the elite level - the type of clubs that mightn't be able to finance a properly-monitored high-end doping programme, or whose players might feel obliged to self-medicate. I'm reminded of the club cyclists who suffered fatal cardiac arrests in the early EPO days.

Villas-Boas's Tottenham have certainly been conspicuously energetic of late. They made Arsenal look lethargic last weekend, and last night buzzed all over Inter Milan for 90 minutes. There was an incident near the end when three Spurs players rushed over to the byline to harry an Inter defender back down the pitch. Extraordinary spectacle.

I'll very happily buy into the possibility of Tottenham being on the juice. That said apart from two defensive lapses I thought Arsenal were the better side over ninety minutes.

But I digress.

 

[del1962]

This Wikipedia article lists the number of deaths during soccer matches. It's up for debate as to how valid this is as some deaths may have flown under the radar and if that's the case it's more likely that it happened 20 years ago than now.

Nevertheless, there is a sharp increase in the number of deaths during matches around 2000 with, I have to think, little increase in the number of participants.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing

The list does not really tell us anything, if you take English Football there has been one death per decade since 1950 (with 2 in the 2000s) , the deaths though have been well done the leagues aswell. The last league team was York City in 1990.

I suspect the records for England go back a long way, but from some other countries less far.

 

[zebedee]

Of course recently we had Villas-Boas talking about blood manipulation to improve Defoe's recovery from injury like it was the most normal thing in the world.

If Villas-Boas put Defoe's blood-spinning treatment in the context you describe he would be doing himself a disservice.

Blood spinning involves taking a small sample of blood, concentrating the red cells and then applying that to an area of injury and inflammation to promote healing. There's some science to back this approach but it's not yet fully understood. It's hypothesised that red blood cells contain factors that can kick-start a healing process or even accelerate it. It's useful for areas of injury where the natural blood supply is either very weak or non-existent, such as a knee joint.

Defoe's treatment has nothing to do with manipulating an athlete's blood generally and the way you put it is misleading. As would be an extrapolation from this to claim that Tottenham players are doping. The evidence for that is as strong or weak as it is for any football club.

 

[JimmyFingers]

If Villas-Boas put Defoe's blood-spinning treatment in the context you describe he would be doing himself a disservice.

Blood spinning involves taking a small sample of blood, concentrating the red cells and then applying that to an area of injury and inflammation to promote healing. There's some science to back this approach but it's not yet fully understood. It's hypothesised that red blood cells contain factors that can kick-start a healing process or even accelerate it. It's useful for areas of injury where the natural blood supply is either very weak or non-existent, such as a knee joint.

Defoe's treatment has nothing to do with manipulating an athlete's blood generally and the way you put it is misleading. As would be an extrapolation from this to claim that Tottenham players are doping. The evidence for that is as strong or weak as it is for any football club.

Isn't this what Anquetil used to do? In the 1960s? Tottenham on the cutting edge then

 

[SundayRider]

'Skill' sports will always get more a pass in regards to doping (from the general public anyway) than fitness/endurance sports.

 

[zebedee]

I've had the treatment. You don't even need a TUE for it.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

'Skill' sports will always get more a pass in regards to doping (from the general public anyway) than fitness/endurance sports.

Until the big scandal like in baseball.

 

[SeriousSam]

'Skill' sports will always get more a pass in regards to doping (from the general public anyway) than fitness/endurance sports.

And for good reason.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

And for good reason.

Even if that 'skill' sport requires endurance to keep repeating that skill, over and over? What's the good reason?