Doping in Soccer/Football

[gooner]

All that shows is how incredibly stupid football fans are.

Link to that poll.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/players-tell-fft-drug-taking-and-match-fixing

 

[The Hitch]

Oops, I misread, thought it said fans, not players.

Still, it doesn't mean very much, since dopers have an interest in not confessing.

Believing that top level clubs, with the money and glory at stake are not going to push the envelope and do everything they can to win, is like believing that the Israel Palestine conflict will spontaneously resolve itself tomorrow, or that airline companies will suddenly make all air travel free or that the worlds biggest landowners will decide to give away all their land to the poor for free.

The nature of battle, when that much money is at stakes, dictates that people will go as far as they can, and those who don't lose out. Cycling in the 90's had one 1000th of the money at stake and all forces for clean sport were removed.

Unless there is some invisible variable, which is highly unlikely, it is sociologically impossible for a sport with the money football has, to not be rife with doping.

 

[sniper]

...
The nature of battle, when that much money is at stakes, dictates that people will go as far as they can, and those who don't lose out. Cycling in the 90's had one 1000th of the money at stake and all forces for clean sport were removed.

Unless there is some invisible variable, which is highly unlikely, it is sociologically impossible for a sport with the money football has, to not be rife with doping.

well put.

the invisible variable might be FIFA's anti-doping policy.
literally invisible, that is.

 

[buckle]

Italian decline

Is the relative decline of Italian football doping related? As in CONI having a 'quiet word' here and there?

I watched the confederations cup Italy/Spain game and DeRossi (he may well be clean also) apart, the Italians seemed to crack collectively. Their decline is noticeable however with Juventus' small new stadium a symbol of a new humility/reality or am I waxing lyrical?

 

[The Hitch]

Is the relative decline of Italian football doping related? As in CONI having a 'quiet word' here and there?

I watched the confederations cup Italy/Spain game and DeRossi (he may well be clean also) apart, the Italians seemed to crack collectively. Their decline is noticeable however with Juventus' small new stadium a symbol of a new humility/reality or am I waxing lyrical?

I doubt it. People often try to attribute fluctuations in performance amongst dopers as down to the doping itself but there are hundreds of other variables at play usual.

In a sport like football where the sports anti doping programme is about 500 years behind the doping programmes the athletes are on, and there is such an entrenched interest against the footballers ever being caught, CONI doing this or that shouldn't have any major impact.

Italy probably got worse because their footballers got worse. Similarly I don't think Spain started doping in 2008. In fact we know they were doping in 2006 and Guardiola was doping in 2002. Manzano's testimony was based on early 2000's and he said they had top Spanish Footballers there. Hell if Olano and Indurain were doping in the 90's you can bet Barca and Real had access to that as well, if not immediately, at least by his 4th or 5th win.

They were doping the whole time, they got better footballers in the late 2000's though, as well as other factors which helped them realize their potential. It probably wasn't the doping itself that created that dynasty since the doping was there before and it will be their after. Similarly their downfall when it comes will be due to worse footballers filling iniesta and cos shoes, or worse teamwork, not due to spain getting tighter on doping. And i think the same is true with Italy. They just got worse now. theyll be better again later. thats how it always is.

In summary, doping is so ubiquitous in football it almost ceases to be a factor since you are unlikely to find like you do in smaller sport like cycling, individuals or factionbs powerful enough to get themselves special favours or push more stringent measures on their rivals (like Armstrong did with cycling)

 

[the sceptic]

Id guess the economy is the biggest reason why Italian football is in decline.

 

[gooner]

Is the relative decline of Italian football doping related? As in CONI having a 'quiet word' here and there?

I watched the confederations cup Italy/Spain game and DeRossi (he may well be clean also) apart, the Italians seemed to crack collectively. Their decline is noticeable however with Juventus' small new stadium a symbol of a new humility/reality or am I waxing lyrical?

Spain got outplayed by Italy in that match and looked a much fresher team.

 

[The Hitch]

Id guess the economy is the biggest reason why Italian football is in decline.

Spains economy is worse and it hasn't hindered them

 

[the sceptic]

Spains economy is worse and it hasn't hindered them

yeah but barca and madrid are still amongst the richest clubs in the world.

 

[LastDamnation]

The medical department is the same with Colin Lewin, Gary O'Driscoll and Tony Colbert. I think you'll find that Dortmund ran 11km more than Arsenal as a team in the Emirates last month.

Why is it that every improvement is just put down to doping programme? Why this season so and not 2012, 2011, 2010 when they weren't winning anything?

It's a too simplistic view.

I'd assumed that arsenal's injury record (http://injuryleague.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/140416.jpg) was a sign that they weren't doping as much as rivals (chelsea low for example), or is this wrong/overly simplistic?

 

[gooner]

I'd assumed that arsenal's injury record (http://injuryleague.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/140416.jpg) was a sign that they weren't doping as much as rivals (chelsea low for example), or is this wrong/overly simplistic?

It's hard to know what's up with Arsenal's injury problems and they have been getting a lot of criticism in this department. Wenger deserves a bit of it for the Ramsey one considering he got told back in December by the medical department to rest him for the West Ham game which he picked up an injury in the end in. I think overall it's a bit of red herring and Gary O'Driscoll who came over from Irish Rugby years back, is now the doctor there and is widely respected in his profession. Frank Warren, the boxing promoter had a look at the training ground in the past and said the medical facilities were first class where other sports could learn from it.

It's been blown out of proportion and you get guys like Raymond Verheijen who has an agenda and loves the sound of his own voice in criticising the likes of Arsenal and United for their injury prevention record. That fellow has a total agenda. I wouldn't listen to a word out of his mouth.

 

[HSNHSN]

It's hard to know what's up with Arsenal's injury problems and they have been getting a lot of criticism in this department. Wenger deserves a bit of it for the Ramsey one considering he got told back in December by the medical department to rest him for the West Ham game which he picked up an injury in the end in. I think overall it's a bit of red herring and Gary O'Driscoll who came over from Irish Rugby years back, is now the doctor there and is widely respected in his profession. Frank Warren, the boxing promoter had a look at the training ground in the past and said the medical facilities were first class where other sports could learn from it.

It's been blown out of proportion and you get guys like Raymond Verheijen who has an agenda and loves the sound of his own voice in criticising the likes of Arsenal and United for their injury prevention record. That fellow has a total agenda. I wouldn't listen to a word out of his mouth.

It's still a fair question, if Arsenal is doping less than certain other clubs, since for years in a row we see roughly the same pattern: Arsenal playing some of the best football there is, at least technically, but every year the season seems to be too long for them, they have to struggle to get to Champions' League football the next year, lose European matches from teams that seem to be able to run around at full speed for 90 minutes, whereas they themselves get tired at some point, etc.

In fact, I've been wondering this same question as well. It's particularly interesting in light of Wenger's comment on blood values of players transferring to Arsenal (to be found somewhere before in this thread).

 

[gooner]

An article in the Guardian tomorrow about the testing procedures for the World Cup.

England's World Cup squad will be among the first elite athletes to undergo new doping test regimes that scientists hope will cut out the use of performance-enhancing drugs.

Players at the tournament in Brazil are to have their blood and urine compared with samples taken in previous competitions to check whether there are any discrepancies. Their samples will also be stored for a number of years so scientists can re-analyse them in the future.

Doping experts said storing samples would mean that performance-enhancing drugs which were undetectable using current testing methods may be picked up later. It would also mean that any changes in their biological make-up could be tracked over time. They said this would be a "major deterrent" for athletes who considered the use of such drugs.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/apr/24/england-players-fifa-drug-tests-world-cup

 

[the sceptic]

Ah, so football has moved on to the "we will show we are serious about testing, to prove our sport is cleans" phase.

There is no chance this is anything more than PR though. Imagine if Bale tested positive after completing his 2 billion move to Madrid. All hell would break lose. No way they will allow anything like that to happen.

 

[BYOP88]

I was starting to doubt soccer, but with this announcement I now believe in Unicorns again.

 

[sniper]

Ah, so football has moved on to the "we will show we are serious about testing, to prove our sport is cleans" phase.

There is no chance this is anything more than PR though. Imagine if Bale tested positive after completing his 2 billion move to Madrid. All hell would break lose. No way they will allow anything like that to happen.

FIFA might 'use' it in the background to prevent certain less interesting teams from going into the next round.
"we've got some red hot samples of some of your players here, but you know what? it will all go away if you loose the next match"

 

[sniper]

Ah, so football has moved on to the "we will show we are serious about testing, to prove our sport is cleans" phase.

There is no chance this is anything more than PR though. Imagine if Bale tested positive after completing his 2 billion move to Madrid. All hell would break lose. No way they will allow anything like that to happen.

FIFA might 'use' it in the background to prevent certain less marketable teams from going into the next round.
"look, we've got some red hot samples of some of your players here, but you know what? it will all go away if you loose the next match"

 

[Ney the Viking]

Well in the latest Eurocup some teams and players did seem to get quite a bit more tired than usual in the late stages of the match. Actually made the games somewhat interesting.

 

[King Boonen]

Ah, so football has moved on to the "we will show we are serious about testing, to prove our sport is cleans" phase.

There is no chance this is anything more than PR though. Imagine if Bale tested positive after completing his 2 billion move to Madrid. All hell would break lose. No way they will allow anything like that to happen.

Err... World Cup... Bale... Not going to happen.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

American football doesn't even test for hgh .

Come on Hitch I posted you the week before that as at July 23, 2013 every player in the NFL had to provide the league with an HGH profile

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Bale's goal in the Copa Del Rey looked as extra terrestrial as anything I've seen recently in football. Limited skill to it, just superhuman athleticism.

I don't care if George Graham said he was going to be a great left back after his first game that guy has to be doping.

 

[sniper]

Bale's goal in the Copa Del Rey looked as extra terrestrial as anything I've seen recently in football. Limited skill to it, just superhuman athleticism.

I don't care if George Graham said he was going to be a great left back after his first game that guy has to be doping.

regardless of the doping question, i think there was some good skill to it.
after that sprint he took the first two touches with his supposedly weaker right foot, at full speed.

he does strike me as a physically very talented athlete (I'm not talking about his technique, which indeed is sort of average on the whole).
on a very impressive program, needless to say, but an impressive body to start with.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Here is a disturbing report in the New York Times about the company responsible for overseeing drug testing in American Sports (a freebie for you Hitch).

"A senior executive at the company that oversees drug testing for the N.C.A.A., the N.F.L., the N.B.A., Major League Baseball and several other top sports organizations claimed in a lawsuit filed this week that she was fired after she voiced concerns about the handling of a football player’s positive drug test.

Andrea Wickerham, a former vice president of the National Center for Drug Free Sport, said that the company improperly handled the July 2013 drug test of an N.F.L. player because it did not want to risk losing the league as a client.

In the past decade, Drug Free Sport has found a niche business model in doping detection. It works with most of the major sports leagues but has been criticized for uncovering few violations

Don Catlin, the former head of U.C.L.A.’s Olympic Analytical Lab, called the allegations in Wickerham’s complaint “very serious.”

“The system needs to be very trustworthy from one end to another,” said Catlin, who oversaw the testing of many of Drug Free Sport’s urine samples when he was at U.C.L.A. “All complaints need to be fully investigated.”

Link http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/s...c=edit_tnt_20140425&nlid=60818045&tntemail0=y

 

[wansteadimp]

Here is a disturbing report in the New York Times about the company responsible for overseeing drug testing in American Sports (a freebie for you Hitch).

"A senior executive at the company that oversees drug testing for the N.C.A.A., the N.F.L., the N.B.A., Major League Baseball and several other top sports organizations claimed in a lawsuit filed this week that she was fired after she voiced concerns about the handling of a football player’s positive drug test.

Andrea Wickerham, a former vice president of the National Center for Drug Free Sport, said that the company improperly handled the July 2013 drug test of an N.F.L. player because it did not want to risk losing the league as a client.

In the past decade, Drug Free Sport has found a niche business model in doping detection. It works with most of the major sports leagues but has been criticized for uncovering few violations

Don Catlin, the former head of U.C.L.A.’s Olympic Analytical Lab, called the allegations in Wickerham’s complaint “very serious.”

“The system needs to be very trustworthy from one end to another,” said Catlin, who oversaw the testing of many of Drug Free Sport’s urine samples when he was at U.C.L.A. “All complaints need to be fully investigated.”

Link http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/s...c=edit_tnt_20140425&nlid=60818045&tntemail0=y

Wouldn't be the first time: -

Probably not worth a thread of its own, I came across an old article regarding Michele Verroken's sacking from Drug-free Sport.

She was a driving force for transparency in the fight against doping in the UK.

She was summarily sacked without explanation in early 2004, the main points are in this article:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...o-quietly.html

I've read rumours that it may have been linked to Rio's failed drug, it was also about 18 months before London won the Olympic bid, it may be she was just doing the job too well for the vested interests or there may have been a legitimate reason (not holding my breath on that).

Anyone have any better info as to what actually happened?

 

[Briant_Gumble]

If Real win the champions league this year won't it be their first time in 10 years?

Isn't it also about 10 years since they stopped working with Fuentes?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/mar/22/blood-doping-trial-fuentes-real-madrid