Doping in Soccer/Football

[sniper]

It has been claimed that Barca tried to hire Fuentes. Anyone got a source?

well, I have this for you:

Als es die französische Le Monde schaffte, Fuentes' Medikationspläne für Fußball-Spitzenklubs zu publizieren, kassierte sie durch Amtsrichter in Barcelona und Madrid enorme Geldbußen - in Prozessen, bei denen der Zeitung die Vorlage just der von Fuentes handgefertigten Pläne untersagt worden war, auf die sie ihren Bericht gestützt hatte. Le Monde will bis zum Europäischen Gerichtshof gehen.

"when french Le Monde managed to get hold of Fuentes' medication schedules for top footballclubs, the newspaper received hugh fines imposed by judges from Barcelona and Madrid - in these trials, Le Monde was prohibited to provide Fuentes' handmade schedules (on which their original story was based) as evidence. Le Monde wants to continue the fight in front of European Court."

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/sp...iche-hilfe-fuer-die-generation-gold-1.1410286

 

[sniper]

here's more in english
http://www.ergogenics.org/484.html

The documents, in Dr Fuentes' handwriting, allegedly detail the preparation plans for the two clubs for the 2005-2006 seasons. The plan showed that the main objective of FC Barcelona was the Champions League in May, which it won, as well as having the players peak for the World Cup.

The training programs include circles and 'IG' symbols that correspond to preparation or rest periods. These are the same symbols used by Dr Fuentes in his plans for the Liberty Seguros riders, according to Le Monde. The Spanish Guardia Civil believe that these symbols correspond to anabolic steroids (circle) and Insulin Growth Factor - IGF-1 (IG).

Other symbols are used in the team plans, including a rounded 'e', and a circle with a dot in it. These are supposed to correspond to blood transfusions and the administration of EPO. Some individual players had tailored programs, in case they were injured or tired.

Eufemiano Fuentes did not have a formal relationship with either FC Barcelona or Real Madrid. His plans were allegedly sent via the team doctor or one of the players. Ex-pro Jesus Manzano, who first alerted police to the dealings of Fuentes, said that he saw a Real Madrid player while visiting the doctor. Nevertheless, FC Barcelona did try to hire Dr Fuentes in both 1996 and 2002, but both times he refused.

 

[Race Radio]

The fat pusher, Manolo Saiz, has found a job
http://www.as.com/futbol/articulo/manolo-saiz-quiere-cobrar-1775000/20120717dasdaiftb_13/Tes

 

[hrotha]

The fat pusher, Manolo Saiz, has found a job
http://www.as.com/futbol/articulo/manolo-saiz-quiere-cobrar-1775000/20120717dasdaiftb_13/Tes

A journo asked him in a press conference whether Racing was planning on signing Gurpegi

 

[TylerDurden1]

Spain .... How did they get so good in such a short amount of time?

2002 WC - Squeaked by ireland to lose to korea
2006 WC - Didn't make it past rd of 16
... and BOOM best team in the world by far, they don't just win they humiliate the best teams in the world.

How is that possible? - doping? - match fixing? - secret training programs? - better competition?

mmmm all these questions i ponder.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

To be fair though, that loss to South Korea was as crooked as an under the table deal between Nixon and Machiavelli. Spain had for years had a great team, but some kind of psychological stumbling block, usually at the quarter-final stage, that meant they never delivered on their promise. Once they did it once, it was gone.

 

[Caruut]

To be fair though, that loss to South Korea was as crooked as an under the table deal between Nixon and Machiavelli. Spain had for years had a great team, but some kind of psychological stumbling block, usually at the quarter-final stage, that meant they never delivered on their promise. Once they did it once, it was gone.

Come on LS, psychological stumbling block? They are a completely different team to 2002, 2004 and 2006. Gone are the technically able players who failed to impose themselves on a game, replaced with players who can run all day long, without even seeming to get tired.

 

[sniper]

Spain .... How did they get so good in such a short amount of time?

2002 WC - Squeaked by ireland to lose to korea
2006 WC - Didn't make it past rd of 16
... and BOOM best team in the world by far, they don't just win they humiliate the best teams in the world.

How is that possible? - doping? - match fixing? - secret training programs? - better competition?

mmmm all these questions i ponder.

has been discussed at length in several threads
take your time
you'll find plenty here that you like.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Come on LS, psychological stumbling block? They are a completely different team to 2002, 2004 and 2006. Gone are the technically able players who failed to impose themselves on a game, replaced with players who can run all day long, without even seeming to get tired.

Yea, but they were doping before 2006. It's from 2008 onwards that they've destroyed everything in sight.

 

[sniper]

Yea, but they were doping before 2006. It's from 2008 onwards that they've destroyed everything in sight.

Good point. But Rabo was also doping before 2007.
Apparently there is also an element of arbitrariness, call it luck, involved in all this.
At a certain point things (i.e. well-structured programs) fall into place, like a puzzle, and from thereon, it's boom, like a rocket.
For Leinders/Rabo, that happened in 2007, for Spanish football it was in 2008.

 

[buckle]

Thats true and i wont disagree with you here. But what about Barcelona and the high pressing game where they squezze the opposition by defending from the front and close down the opposition as close as the can to their goal. That is a major part of their game. It was something the lost in the last few years of the Rijkaard era and its one of the main reasons why they have been so successful under Guardiola. Would you agree doping would help with that? Its takes a lot of energy and is physically demanding to do that over a whole season.

Turning to Spain again in 2012 I noticed that both Italy (in the first league game) and Portugal in the semi seemed to crack physically against the Spanish both were playing a form of pressing themselves especially Portugal. The final itself is more difficult to analyse as Italy abandoned the pressing game to play their traditional and prosaic 4-3-1-2 before the injuries ruined the event completely. My own instincts are that Balotelli, for example, doesn't dope as he seems to tire as per normal and his physique is unremarkable - heck he hates to train. In the final, he gave it everything and looked shattered. He looked shattered after an hour against Germany also.

Barcelona against Man U in 2010 were simply unreal and the latter's pressing game (it seemed based around Park) was an embarassement.

 

[Caruut]

Italy were shafted in the final. One goal with a touch of luck, a moment of pure class for the second, and then they get down to ten men through no fault of their own, really. As you say, there is little point analysing it.

 

[buckle]

Italy were shafted in the final. One goal with a touch of luck, a moment of pure class for the second, and then they get down to ten men through no fault of their own, really. As you say, there is little point analysing it.

Certainly the soccer Gods conspired against them and I suspect Chiellini was carrying his injury into the final. 1-0 down to that crew and it's game over. The goal came from his flank, he looked to the bench and then came off. Sad for the neutral as the game was no different to the TDF. For the last hour read the last 2 weeks of the Tour. Interestingly (perhaps oddly given their obvious handicaps), the only excuse the Italian coach offered for the final collapse was fatigue.

Spain v Portugal was more instructive. The Portugese physically collapsed but such is the bizarre feature of this sport were able to hang on as Spain couldn't finish. As I say, I noticed a similar phenomenon in the first Italy game. Why would the Italians look exhausted with 15 mins to go in the first game of a championship after a 3 week break? Iniesta simply never tires. Most seem to explain their run of success by the game being less 'physical' which ironic given the theme of this debate.

 

[sniper]

Certainly the soccer Gods conspired against them and I suspect Chiellini was carrying his injury into the final. 1-0 down to that crew and it's game over. The goal came from his flank, he looked to the bench and then came off. Sad for the neutral as the game was no different to the TDF. For the last hour read the last 2 weeks of the Tour. Interestingly (perhaps oddly given their obvious handicaps), the only excuse the Italian coach offered for the final collapse was fatigue.

Spain v Portugal was more instructive. The Portugese physically collapsed but such is the bizarre feature of this sport were able to hang on as Spain couldn't finish. As I say, I noticed a similar phenomenon in the first Italy game. Why would the Italians look exhausted with 15 mins to go in the first game of a championship after a 3 week break? Iniesta simply never tires. Most seem to explain their run of success by the game being less 'physical' which ironic given the theme of this debate.

to be sure, we've gone through this (i.e. Spain and doping) a couple of times already in several threads (not just this one). If you take your time to go back, you'll find interesting stuff (links to articles, etc.) on Spanish football teams linked to doping doctors.

Most agree that the spanish have incredibly increased their stamina, compared to other teams, in the past decade or so.
For instance, germany (and german clubs) used to be known for their stamina and winning games in the final ten minutes and/or stoppage time (probably also due to advanced programs), but now it's the spanish who do that, and more: as you point out, they're able to dominate entire games on a physical basis.
Some definitely underestimate the physical dimension of the tikitaki game, claiming Spanish dominance is all about technique.
I don't. Really, tikitaki wouldn't be possible without the most advanced of doping programs, including growth hormones and elaborate blooddoping.

Perhaps one 'odd' case last season was the Champions League semi final where Bayern Munich seemed to outlast Madrid.
Seemed to suggest Bayern are catching up.

 

[sniper]

Certainly the soccer Gods conspired against them and I suspect Chiellini was carrying his injury into the final. 1-0 down to that crew and it's game over. The goal came from his flank, he looked to the bench and then came off. Sad for the neutral as the game was no different to the TDF. For the last hour read the last 2 weeks of the Tour.

nice comparison with the tour.
indeed spain's dominance in football has become farcical, and their games are predictable and tiresome to watch.

sadly, the only hope for this changing is when other countries catch up in terms of doping. the spanish toning down on doping is rather unlikely, especially in football where the fifa runs the most farcical of anti-doping testing.

 

[TylerDurden1]

to be sure, we've gone through this (i.e. Spain and doping) a couple of times already in several threads (not just this one). If you take your time to go back, you'll find interesting stuff (links to articles, etc.) on Spanish football teams linked to doping doctors.

Most agree that the spanish have incredibly increased their stamina, compared to other teams, in the past decade or so.
For instance, germany (and german clubs) used to be known for their stamina and winning games in the final ten minutes and/or stoppage time (probably also due to advanced programs), but now it's the spanish who do that, and more: as you point out, they're able to dominate entire games on a physical basis.
Some definitely underestimate the physical dimension of the tikitaki game, claiming Spanish dominance is all about technique.
I don't. Really, tikitaki wouldn't be possible without the most advanced of doping programs, including growth hormones and elaborate blooddoping.

Perhaps one 'odd' case last season was the Champions League semi final where Bayern Munich seemed to outlast Madrid.
Seemed to suggest Bayern are catching up.

One could make the argument that they are better technically because they can train harder and longer by using the "good stuff".

But even when they don't have ball possession, they press soo hard and they force their opponents to make mistakes, they leave no room for passes its unbelievable. A completely different team compared to a few yrs ago.

 

[sniper]

One could make the argument that they are better technically because they can train harder and longer by using the "good stuff".

But even when they don't have ball possession, they press soo hard and they force their opponents to make mistakes, they leave no room for passes its unbelievable. A completely different team compared to a few yrs ago.

in bold is a very good point.
I assume that applies to other sports as well where skill is combined with stamina, such as tennis: the main gain of doping is that it allows you to train until the night falls.

 

[Albatros]

nice comparison with the tour.
indeed spain's dominance in football has become farcical, and their games are predictable and tiresome to watch.

sadly, the only hope for this changing is when other countries catch up in terms of doping. the spanish toning down on doping is rather unlikely, especially in football where the fifa runs the most farcical of anti-doping testing.

You seem to think that the Spanish NT and Spanish teams in general are at the avant-garde of doping in football, when if you look at stats their numbers do not seem to be any better than those of their competitors.

Check distance covered during matches at UEFA website and Barcelona and Real Madrid are middle of the pack.

And with that I am not saying that they are not doping. I would bet they are, but so are the rest. And in the case of Barcelona what they are exceptionally good is at keeping posession of the ball, from the senior team, to the 9 years olds teams.

And again, I know about the importance of athletic performance in football, but that doesn't seem to me what is giving the Spanish NT the edge.

A couple of years ago, you had Rubin Kazan covering 120 kms per game, by far the largest distance of any of the competitors in the CH L and they have never qualified for the last 8. Barcelona on the the other hand have performed better than anyone else in the last seasons but only covering about 109 Kms per game, below the average i. And I don't think they have the fastest players either.

 

[Bala Verde]

to be sure, we've gone through this (i.e. Spain and doping) a couple of times already in several threads (not just this one). If you take your time to go back, you'll find interesting stuff (links to articles, etc.) on Spanish football teams linked to doping doctors.

Most agree that the spanish have incredibly increased their stamina, compared to other teams, in the past decade or so.
For instance, germany (and german clubs) used to be known for their stamina and winning games in the final ten minutes and/or stoppage time (probably also due to advanced programs), but now it's the spanish who do that, and more: as you point out, they're able to dominate entire games on a physical basis.
Some definitely underestimate the physical dimension of the tikitaki game, claiming Spanish dominance is all about technique.
I don't. Really, tikitaki wouldn't be possible without the most advanced of doping programs, including growth hormones and elaborate blooddoping.

Perhaps one 'odd' case last season was the Champions League semi final where Bayern Munich seemed to outlast Madrid.
Seemed to suggest Bayern are catching up.

Do you have any figures, or stats on how many km Spanish players ran, and/or comparisons of stats to other teams that play different styles, including the English (kicking the ball forward), Italian (catenaccio), or South Korean (swarm and outrun your opponent) football?

In my opinion, the short-passing style games, with lots of individual, but only short distance postion movements (1-2-3 meters), require less energy and fitness then most other styles, because you let the ball do most of the work. I would compare it to playing rondo, in all its forms, but a common one where 3 players try to keep possession against one, or two chasers in the middle. If you are technically skilled, and pros at that level are, the chasers hardly ever win, and most will collapse from exhaustion.

 

[sniper]

You seem to think that the Spanish NT and Spanish teams in general are at the avant-garde of doping in football, when if you look at stats their numbers do not seem to be any better than those of their competitors.

Check distance covered during matches at UEFA website and Barcelona and Real Madrid are middle of the pack.

And with that I am not saying that they are not doping. I would bet they are, but so are the rest. And in the case of Barcelona what they are exceptionally good is at keeping posession of the ball, from the senior team, to the 9 years olds teams.

And again, I know about the importance of athletic performance in football, but that doesn't seem to me what is giving the Spanish NT the edge.

A couple of years ago, you had Rubin Kazan covering 120 kms per game, by far the largest distance of any of the competitors in the CH L and they have never qualified for the last 8. Barcelona on the the other hand have performed better than anyone else in the last seasons but only covering about 109 Kms per game, below the average i. And I don't think they have the fastest players either.

so you say we (i.e. those who've seen spanish teams exceeding germans, english, and italians in terms of stamina/physique) are all spinning?

 

[Albatros]

so you say we (i.e. those who've seen spanish teams exceeding germans, english, and italians in terms of stamina/physique) are all spinning?

Again, numbers do not indicate that Spanish teams are physically outperforming their counterparts. Check UEFA press kits for confirmation.

In the last Euros for instance, it was Italy the team that covered most distance out of all competitors.

One note, do not compare figures in the final cause the Italian team played with only 10 men for the last 30 minutes or so.

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/mediaservices/presskits/index.html

I think you are undervaluing football ability and I believe Spanish players at present are technically the best. Technique is not everything but surely helps.

 

[Albatros]

Taking from the UEFA site
http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/euro/2012/2003351_ts.pdf

Spain average in the tournement 115246 meters
Italy average 118609
All competitors average 112902

Actually Spain were above the average. I wonder if playing extra time against Portugal infuenced this averages. And I know for a fact that Barcelona are below average in the CH L as I regurlarly check these stats.

Against Portugal in semifinals

Portugal 143766 meters

Spain 140465 meters

http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/euro/2012/2003378_ts.pdf


Against France in quarter finals:

France 112705 meters
Spain 109826 meters

http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/euro/2012/2003345_ts.pdf

 

[knewcleardaze]

How do they measure distance covered? Players wear pedometers?

 

[buckle]

Do you have any figures, or stats on how many km Spanish players ran, and/or comparisons of stats to other teams that play different styles, including the English (kicking the ball forward), Italian (catenaccio), or South Korean (swarm and outrun your opponent) football?

In my opinion, the short-passing style games, with lots of individual, but only short distance postion movements (1-2-3 meters), require less energy and fitness then most other styles, because you let the ball do most of the work. I would compare it to playing rondo, in all its forms, but a common one where 3 players try to keep possession against one, or two chasers in the middle. If you are technically skilled, and pros at that level are, the chasers hardly ever win, and most will collapse from exhaustion.

Italy abandoned catenaccio decades ago as it never really worked or had limited value. In their game against England, their entire team outpassed the a very defensive English set-up not just Pirlo.

Their breakthrough at club level in the 1990's was the result of absorbing Anglo-Saxon work ethic (pressing) combined with their traditional outstanding technique especially in defence. To what extent doping facilitated this leap forward is open to question?

At the tail end of that era, there are rumours that Del Peiro's body shaped changed at Juve and even controvery surrounding the greatest defender I've ever seen Cannavaro. Curiously, back in the mid-90's, Italians suspected the Brazilians were dopers.

 

[sniper]

...
I think you are undervaluing football ability and I believe Spanish players at present are technically the best. Technique is not everything but surely helps.

see tylerdurden1's post above. dope helps you train till you drop, without dropping that is.
not unimportant in the development of technique.