Doping in Soccer/Football

[buckle]

see tylerdurden1's post above. dope helps you train till you drop, without dropping that is.
not unimportant in the development of technique.

Gary Player has made the same point in respect of golf. Although in the lottery which is the British Open a 59 yo Tom Watson made a play-off. Heck, he even made the cut this year and is now in his 60's. No amount of dope could have stopped Adam Scott's meltdown but your point, using Player's logic, is surely valid. Perhaps British links courses remain the best antidote to the dopers though!

 

[sniper]

Taking from the UEFA site
http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/euro/2012/2003351_ts.pdf

Spain average in the tournement 115246 meters
Italy average 118609
All competitors average 112902

Actually Spain were above the average. I wonder if playing extra time against Portugal infuenced this averages. And I know for a fact that Barcelona are below average in the CH L as I regurlarly check these stats.

Against Portugal in semifinals

Portugal 143766 meters

Spain 140465 meters

http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/euro/2012/2003378_ts.pdf


Against France in quarter finals:

France 112705 meters
Spain 109826 meters

http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/euro/2012/2003345_ts.pdf

thanks for the stats, Albatros.
I must admit, however, that I prefer to trust in what I see.
Try this metaphor: If a map doesn't fit the territory, there is something wrong with the map.

so we have the facts (dope doctors working for spanish teams), we have the data (overwhelming -- yes, incredible -- spanish records in football). It's just a matter of whether you want to join the dots or not.

 

[Cookster15]

Is there significant doping in Soccer/Football? Well firstly lets quantify the potential benefits of doping in football versus professional road cycling.

Football: Predominantly skills based but with speed and some endurance. Benefits of blood doping would be to maintain higher speeds for longer into a game. There might also be benefits in terms of recovery between games. Outcome would be seeing more goals scored late in the game against non-doping players / teams or maintaining speed / endurance longer into tournaments such as the World Cup.

Road Cycling: Predominantly aerobic endurance based but with some shorter higher intensity bursts in sprints or responding to mid race accelerations. Clear benefits from doping in being able to maintain higher power / speed for longer, especially in relation to the riders weight and therefore ability to climb mountains faster or time trialling.

The benefits of blood doping / EPO would appear to be far more significant to road cycling than football. But the leveller might be the amount of money involved. While professional cyclists can earn very good money in isolation, compared with European football there is no comparison.

So in relation to the Puerto case, there were many blood bags linked to non-cyclists. These might have been let’s say Spanish professional footballers. But if the performance gains from blood doping to footballing ability are marginal why would footballers do blood doping? The advantage of blood doping to a road cyclist's performance are however obvious. The leveller in all this is the money involved.

A work colleague of mine with Italian heritage rubbished the idea that footballers might dope as much as professional cyclists when I complained to him about what might be fuelling Wiggins / Sky's dominance at the TDF. I think most football fans are dismissive or naive of the potential doping problem in their sport but maybe underestimate the degree of corruption that might exist thanks to the relative amounts of money involved.

 

[hrotha]

so you say we (i.e. those who've seen spanish teams exceeding germans, english, and italians in terms of stamina/physique) are all spinning?

I honestly think Spain loses on the stamina front to many of their rivals. I didn't see it this Euro, but certainly in the WC.

 

[will10]

The potential recovery benefits from doping in football are massive, particularly when playing two or three games a week.

 

[Albatros]

see tylerdurden1's post above. dope helps you train till you drop, without dropping that is.
not unimportant in the development of technique.

So the theory is that if Parker and Millner dopedas good as Xavi and Iniesta they would be technically as competent? Sorry but I don't believe it.

I am the first to agree that doping will allow players to train harder and longer and thus improve thier technique as well as being able in a game to perform to the best of their technical ability for longer on the pitch.

But there is also a base skill level that some players posses and others severely lack. And in today's game Spain are technically the best team.

Iniesta at the age of 11 or 12. Unless he was already on the needle you can see that he was a special talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_x6Bgb4yc

 

[sniper]

So the theory is that if Parker and Millner dopedas good as Xavi and Iniesta they would be technically as competent? Sorry but I don't believe it.

I am the first to agree that doping will allow players to train harder and longer and thus improve thier technique as well as being able in a game to perform to the best of their technical ability for longer on the pitch.

But there is also a base skill level that some players posses and others severely lack. And in today's game Spain are technically the best team.

Iniesta at the age of 11 or 12. Unless he was already on the needle you can see that he was a special talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_x6Bgb4yc

the spanish didn't suddenly become very technically skilled.
they were already technically skilled above-average in the 80s, in the 90s.
but in the 2000s, something happened.
no, they didn't invent the wheel of how to become even more technical.
no, there were no marginal gains as a result of better training facilities.
no, something else happened. and it was paralleled by a whole era of remarkable spanish sports results, spanish tennis, basketball and athletics being just three very convenient examples.

albatros, you got to learn from history. history has shown that the most remarkable athletic records are written in revolutionary doping eras.
i don't have the link here, but there is an article on the tremendous increase in records when EPO came on the market, and the tremendous halt in records once EPO became detectable.
Now, one of the most formidable records of modern sports history has been Spains recent triple (EC, WC, EC) accompanied by sheer dominance in club football. (do you need a reminder that last year spain had five clubs in the semi-finals of the EL and CL combined?)

join the dots, and you'll see a constellation.

 

[sniper]

Iniesta at the age of 11 or 12. Unless he was already on the needle you can see that he was a special talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_x6Bgb4yc

Raul might be the most talented player Spain ever had.
Yet he never won anything with Spain.
Wrong era?

 

[hrotha]

Sniper, this has been pointed out many times, but for the past 5 years or so it's been England dominating club football, not Spain. Spain only had Barça doing consistently well, and Barça makes up the backbone of the national team. The technical skill of the current Spanish team is not comparable to the one from, say, the early 2000s: http://en.archive.uefa.com/competit...on=2000/round=1458/match=64861/report=lu.html

You can't compare track and field records with football records. Football records aren't a thing.

Of course Spain dopes, and of course the Spanish authorities are more permissive about doping than the average European country (it would rank in or near the top of that list, actually). But in the case of the Spanish national football team, I honestly don't see the physical edge. As I said, they were usually outperformed by their rivals throughout the 2010 WC. Even a team like Paraguay held better physically.

 

[hrotha]

Raul might be the most talented player Spain ever had.
Yet he never won anything with Spain.
Wrong era?

Raúl's technique wasn't that great.

 

[sniper]

You can't compare track and field records with football records. Football records aren't a thing.

What about the goalscoring records of messi and ronaldo.
there has been a whole discussion about how it could be possible that in this era such incredible new goalscoring records could be set, even though modern-day teams and players do not train more hours than in the 90s and 2000s.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

A few years ago you'd have 4 EPL teams in the quarter finals of the CL. Sometimes 3 in the semis. But now it's the Spanish teams that are dominating (although they aren't dominating by that much) the drugs thing comes out. The English teams know their way around a doping program, and so do the Italians. I'm sure the Germans, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Russians know theirs too, plus anybody else with a league with enough money in it.

Spanish footballers have been dominating international competition since 2008, sure, but this was the first year of real domination in the European club competitions. But then, bear in mind that the league they're replacing at the forefront is the EPL, and that has a much lower % English players than the % Spanish players in La Liga, which affects the national team.

But we also know that Spanish teams were doping prior to 2006, and not having anything like the same level of success. They are doping in 2012 for sure, but that's not the only reason for their turnaround in fortune, and it's a bit too simplistic a view to take that it is.

 

[hrotha]

What about the goalscoring records of messi and ronaldo.
there has been a whole discussion about how it could be possible that in this era such incredible new goalscoring records could be set, even though modern-day teams and players do not train more hours than in the 90s and 2000s.

They're scoring mostly against other Spanish sides, are they not?

The Spanish league has been a two-team affair for the last few years. The average level has plummeted in recent years, as TV money was dilapidated and more and more teams came close to bankrupcy.

 

[Caruut]

I would like to point out that simple "Number of kilometers run" statistics do not paint the whole picture. One must also consider the physical condition at the end of the game. If one team run a lot up to about 80 minutes, and are then dead on their feet while the others are still in good shape, then the second team clearly have superior stamina while the actual kms difference won't be too great.

With running the amount of time run in short sharp bursts is hugely important too.

 

[sniper]

A few years ago you'd have 4 EPL teams in the quarter finals of the CL. Sometimes 3 in the semis. But now it's the Spanish teams that are dominating (although they aren't dominating by that much) the drugs thing comes out. The English teams know their way around a doping program, and so do the Italians. I'm sure the Germans, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Russians know theirs too, plus anybody else with a league with enough money in it.

Libertine, you presuppose a level playing field. why?
everybody in the peloton doped, still armstrong won seven.

 

[sniper]

But we also know that Spanish teams were doping prior to 2006, and not having anything like the same level of success.

so what? Rabo/Rasmussen also doped prior to 2007.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

so what? Rabo/Rasmussen also doped prior to 2007.

So what I'm saying is, saying "it's 'cos they're doping" is not the sole reason for them becoming super successful, because otherwise they'd have been stomping people earlier. Maybe they're doping better, maybe they're doping longer, maybe they're doping harder.

But there are also potential reasons outside of dope.

For example, we've just seen an era where a disjointed French team that won big a decade ago has been gutted of its big names and has struggled to replace them. Germany have been in rebuilding; they've got a good team now, but the team that played Spain in the final in '08 was not as imposing as today's. England have always flattered to deceive. Italy aren't the force they once were, although they're showing signs they may be about to become it again. Portugal always seem to find a way to make mistakes. They're not stomping a field of superhuman footballers. And they themselves have always had that issue of having created some amazing sides, but never having achieved what they should have done, always having a bad game at the wrong time. And the fear of history repeating has been ingrained in the fans, pundits, press. This kind of self-fulfilling prophecy isn't uncommon - same goes for the Netherlands, and England in penalty shoot-outs.

To take it closer to home, think of Cadel Evans. He was a top quality rider, always has been. But he was always the nearly man, and you could see how he struggled and got nervous and/or aggressive with people when under the pressure of expectation. Winning the World Championships changed him. Yes, there had been signs of the new, aggressive attacking Evans before then, but it was like he had finally picked up that big, world class level win that his talent deserved, and the pressure of having come close and failed time and time again suddenly evaporated away from him. And since then, his results have been far better. He seems no longer afraid of losing, because he's a winner.

I know and fully accept that the Spanish team is full of players who have doped, are doping and will continue to dope. But the other teams have dopers too, and the Spanish players being full of dope is only part of the reason they've changed from nearly men to winners. How big that part is is open to interpretation, but saying that it's 100%, pure and simple, the only reason why Spain are winning things is too simplistic, too basic a view. There's a mentality issue too, and a quality of opposition issue, and also a bit of a hex over opponents - the constant talk in the press about what the great Spanish team will do kind of puts a bit of pressure on the opposition too.

 

[blackcat]

good post LS. And a flaw in the theory that the Sky riders just started doping.

You just dont start after being in the sport for over a decade. Risible logic that is.

Messi might be an Argie doper, of that I am sure, and even with the hgh, he is still a damn genius. Sorry, even without the hgh, he is still a genius.

I just hope club docs dont make players keel over for sporting glory. The health should be paramount, not our consumer viewer pleasure, even paying Rupert big bucks in cable tv revenue.

 

[sniper]

So what I'm saying is, saying "it's 'cos they're doping" is not the sole reason for them becoming super successful, because otherwise they'd have been stomping people earlier. Maybe they're doping better, maybe they're doping longer, maybe they're doping harder.

But there are also potential reasons outside of dope.

For example, we've just seen an era where a disjointed French team that won big a decade ago has been gutted of its big names and has struggled to replace them. Germany have been in rebuilding; they've got a good team now, but the team that played Spain in the final in '08 was not as imposing as today's. England have always flattered to deceive. Italy aren't the force they once were, although they're showing signs they may be about to become it again. Portugal always seem to find a way to make mistakes. They're not stomping a field of superhuman footballers. And they themselves have always had that issue of having created some amazing sides, but never having achieved what they should have done, always having a bad game at the wrong time. And the fear of history repeating has been ingrained in the fans, pundits, press. This kind of self-fulfilling prophecy isn't uncommon - same goes for the Netherlands, and England in penalty shoot-outs.

To take it closer to home, think of Cadel Evans. He was a top quality rider, always has been. But he was always the nearly man, and you could see how he struggled and got nervous and/or aggressive with people when under the pressure of expectation. Winning the World Championships changed him. Yes, there had been signs of the new, aggressive attacking Evans before then, but it was like he had finally picked up that big, world class level win that his talent deserved, and the pressure of having come close and failed time and time again suddenly evaporated away from him. And since then, his results have been far better. He seems no longer afraid of losing, because he's a winner.

I know and fully accept that the Spanish team is full of players who have doped, are doping and will continue to dope. But the other teams have dopers too, and the Spanish players being full of dope is only part of the reason they've changed from nearly men to winners. How big that part is is open to interpretation, but saying that it's 100%, pure and simple, the only reason why Spain are winning things is too simplistic, too basic a view. There's a mentality issue too, and a quality of opposition issue, and also a bit of a hex over opponents - the constant talk in the press about what the great Spanish team will do kind of puts a bit of pressure on the opposition too.

of course I never denied that there are other factors at play than just doping.
still, I'm convinced something happened in Spanish football ca. 2004/2005 and, yes, that their doping programs have since been superior to other european doping programs, particularly barca's, with key players such as Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol. But also Valencia (Villa). Madrid may have been rather late in seeing the light, perhaps only after Mourinho came.
I'm thinking of an ideal mixture of growthhormes and blooddoping. We have evidence of both being applied in Spanish soccer -- and note that the Fuentes/Del Moral links both date back to 2004/5.
This doesn't mean they don't do this elsewhere in Europe, or that they didn't do it prior to 2004/5. A "no doubt" to both. But still, we have the evidence for 2004/5, and we have the incredible rocketing of the Spanish performances afterwards. So something clearly 'clicked' in that year. Just like something 'clicked' for Rabo/Rasmussen in 2007.

One case in point is the rise in effectivity of Xavi. He always was very talented, yet physically too mediocre to be top of the bill. After 2005, however, he literally doubled his effectivity, scoring double the amount of goals in each season compared to pre-2005. (read this somewhere, but have no link, perhaps later). And with the rise of Xavi, we see the rise of the entire Barca squad, completely blasting the competition in subsequent years and breaking not just national records, but also CL records.

Perhaps also indicative: Ronaldinho not coming close to his Barca form after moving from the club.

concluding:
heavy duty doping elsewhere in Europe? check
heavy duty doping in Spain and Europe prior to 2004/5? check
spanish soccer doping programs post-2005 superior to other doping european doping programs? check

 

[sniper]

They're scoring mostly against other Spanish sides, are they not?

I don'T have Barca's / Messi's CL records at hand. But they are impressive. And they are records.

 

[Paco_P]

the spanish didn't suddenly become very technically skilled.
they were already technically skilled above-average in the 80s, in the 90s.
but in the 2000s, something happened.
no, they didn't invent the wheel of how to become even more technical.
no, there were no marginal gains as a result of better training facilities.
no, something else happened. and it was paralleled by a whole era of remarkable spanish sports results, spanish tennis, basketball and athletics being just three very convenient examples.

The main thing that happened was Spain transitioned from being a developing country to being a first world country, with all that implies for the infrastructure of developing players.

Now that Spain is going back to being a developing country, I anticipate that it's football will decline.

Doping goes on everywhere in professional football. Remember most of the stars in the Spanish league aren't Spanish.

 

[Paco_P]

Raul might be the most talented player Spain ever had.
Yet he never won anything with Spain.
Wrong era?

This just shows you don't know much about football. Raul is far from being the most talented player Spain ever had. Iniesta would be who most Spaniards would pick. Xavi next. But few would argue Raul was more talented than say, Guardiola, or Xabi Alonso, or Puyol, or etc... or David Villa.

 

[Paco_P]

2002 WC - Squeaked by ireland to lose to korea

The Spain Korea game had the same referee who had worked the Roy Jones fight some years earlier. Among the most crooked performances I know of.

 

[sniper]

This just shows you don't know much about football. Raul is far from being the most talented player Spain ever had. Iniesta would be who most Spaniards would pick. Xavi next. But few would argue Raul was more talented than say, Guardiola, or Xabi Alonso, or Puyol, or etc... or David Villa.

technically I mean, clearly not physically (which my point was all about, only for you not to understand)
everybody would argue he was (technically) more talented than say, Guardiola, or Xabi Alonso, or Puyol.

 

[sniper]

The main thing that happened was Spain transitioned from being a developing country to being a first world country, with all that implies for the infrastructure of developing players.

Now that Spain is going back to being a developing country, I anticipate that it's football will decline.

Doping goes on everywhere in professional football. Remember most of the stars in the Spanish league aren't Spanish.

don't agree with the 3rd-to-1st-world theory, paco, sorry!

and for the zillionth time: YES, Doping indeed goes on everywhere in professional football.