Doping in Soccer/Football

[hrotha]

technically I mean, clearly not physically (which my point was all about, only for you not to understand)
everybody would argue he was (technically) more talented than say, Guardiola, or Xabi Alonso, or Puyol.

No, technically he was always good, but not great. His strong points were other things more susceptible to being boosted by PEDs: fighting spirit and the like.

Your point about Ronaldinho's decline after leaving Barça is laughable. Ronaldinho left Barça because he was FAT and couldn't bother to train properly. His performance plummeted already on his last few seasons at Barça.

I'm convinced something happened in Spanish football ca. 2004/2005 and, yes, that their doping programs have since been superior to other european doping programs, particularly barca's, with key players such as Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol. But also Valencia (Villa).

This is the problem, you're "convinced" regardless of what we say. Spain's national team was still "close but no cigar", as always, at the 2006 WC. By then, England was dominating at the club level, which is where you'd expect most doping to happen. Basically you're saying every single good Spanish player is the product of systematic doping. Isn't that a bit myopic?

Doping is not the only variable in cycling, where its impact is even bigger, so of course it's not the only variable in football either.

 

[sniper]

No, technically he was always good, but not great. His strong points were other things more susceptible to being boosted by PEDs: fighting spirit and the like.

Your point about Ronaldinho's decline after leaving Barça is laughable. Ronaldinho left Barça because he was FAT and couldn't bother to train properly. His performance plummeted already on his last few seasons at Barça.

This is the problem, you're "convinced" regardless of what we say.

but what are you saying? is there no correlation between spains success and superior doping stuctures? if that's what you're saying, we disagree.
In the meantime, the number grows of observers who think there is something terribly smelly about Spains football dominance. And none of those observers would deny doping is omnipresent in football.

Basically you're saying every single good Spanish player is the product of systematic doping. Isn't that a bit myopic?

that's you putting words into my mouth.
of course not. but the sheer dominance I believe correlates with superior doping programs.
Think of LA for comparison. Everybody was doping in LA's times. even with largely the same substances I assume. but that doesn't mean the program was equally good.
Are you honestly assuming LA won those 7 titles in a level playing field? Of course not. Was it just his talent prevailing seven times in a row? Of course not..
I say it was his superior program that made the difference. of course he had the necessary talent, and a lot of it, but not more talent than an Ulrich. So what made him beat Ulrich those 7 times? Mentality? Nah.. better training facilities? Nah.

(which reminds me: perhaps not such a coincidence after all that at least two of LA's doctors had direct ties to spanish football).

 

[the asian]

It's laughable if someone suggests that doping is the sole reason for Barca's and Spain NT rise. No amount of doping can help in vision, awareness, technique, passing ability & understanding of tactics, which the Spanish players have in abundance.
The Spanish are usually less physically exhausted because they hardly give the ball away. It's the other teams who have to chase and they physically exhausted. Both Spain & Barca have problems when playing teams with a very good pressing game as theirs.
Examples are Spain vs Portugal at Euro SF, and Barca vs Atletic Bilbao in the La liga game which ended 2-2.
No amount of doping can help the English players to string three passes together, but it will make therm better at what they are doing now, running like headless chicken.

 

[sniper]

It's laughable if someone suggests that doping is the sole reason for Barca's and Spain NT rise.

it is, and luckily nobody's suggesting this

 

[hrotha]

but what are you saying? is there no correlation between spains success and superior doping stuctures? if that's what you're saying, we disagree.
In the meantime, the number grows of observers who think there is something terribly smelly about Spains football dominance. And none of those observers would deny doping is omnipresent in football.

I repeat I believe Spain lost on the stamina front to most of their rivals at the 2010 WC, so no, I don't believe they have superior doping structures, unless all Spanish players just happen to be average athletes. I don't deny doping is omnipresent in football. The suspicions of Spanish football have more to do with the tainted reputation of Spain than with anything that happens on the field.

that's you putting words into my mouth.
of course not. but the sheer dominance is too much for me to believe in.
It's LA all over again. Too good to be true.
And yes, everybody was doping in LA's times. even with largely the same substances I assume. but that doesn't mean the program was the same.
Are you saying LA won those 7 titles in a level playing field? Was it just his talent prevailing seven times in a row?
I say no. I say it was his superior program that made the difference. of course he had the necessary talent, but not more talented than an Ulrich.
perfect parallel between LA and my claims regarding spanish football.

(which reminds me: perhaps not such a coincidence after all that at least two of LA's doctors had direct ties to spanish football).

It's not a perfect parallel, because technique is much more important in football than in cycling. In cycling, PEDs give an insurmountable advantage. In football, PEDs give a big advantage. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I thought Spain were physically superior to their rivals these past 4 years, but again, that's not what I saw. Especially at the 2010 WC, Spain's lack of stamina was alarming.

Armstrong was physically superior to everyone else (thanks to PEDs). I don't see that in Spain. That's the difference.

 

[sniper]

I repeat I believe Spain lost on the stamina front to most of their rivals at the 2010 WC, so no, I don't believe they have superior doping structures, unless all Spanish players just happen to be average athletes. I don't deny doping is omnipresent in football. The suspicions of Spanish football have more to do with the tainted reputation of Spain than with anything that happens on the field.

It's not a perfect parallel, because technique is much more important in football than in cycling. In cycling, PEDs give an insurmountable advantage. In football, PEDs give a big advantage. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I thought Spain were physically superior to their rivals these past 4 years, but again, that's not what I saw. Especially at the 2010 WC, Spain's lack of stamina was alarming.

Armstrong was physically superior to everyone else (thanks to PEDs). I don't see that in Spain. That's the difference.

good points. thanks. will give it some thought

 

[Albatros]

but what are you saying? is there no correlation between spains success and superior doping stuctures? if that's what you're saying, we disagree.
In the meantime, the number grows of observers who think there is something terribly smelly about Spains football dominance. And none of those observers would deny doping is omnipresent in football.


that's you putting words into my mouth.
of course not. but the sheer dominance I believe correlates with superior doping programs.
Think of LA for comparison. Everybody was doping in LA's times. even with largely the same substances I assume. but that doesn't mean the program was equally good.
Are you honestly assuming LA won those 7 titles in a level playing field? Of course not. Was it just his talent prevailing seven times in a row? Of course not..
I say it was his superior program that made the difference. of course he had the necessary talent, and a lot of it, but not more talent than an Ulrich. So what made him beat Ulrich those 7 times? Mentality? Nah.. better training facilities? Nah.

(which reminds me: perhaps not such a coincidence after all that at least two of LA's doctors had direct ties to spanish football).

There may be something to it. I don't discard it, but also there is much to do with the fact that now Spain have a recognisable style of play that most of their players practise at their clubs. A style that is highly technical and allow them to control games by virtue of their superior technique. Have you seen Spain getting out of trouble when highly pressed by virtue of their passing ability? If there is an exercise in football that barely requires exertion, that is passing the ball, adn Spain do it better than anyone else, simply because their players have superior passing technique, especially in midfield positions.
You have players like Xavi, Iniesta, Cesc, Alonso, Busquets, all outstanding passers of the ball.

In fact, one of the problems with the Spanish teamis a phisycal one, the serious lack of pace and size across the team that prevents them from being more penetrative an direct.

I think modern conditions such as the light balls and immaculate state of football pitches has helped them put into practice this style. And of course the influence of Johan Cruyff who is very much the person who put the first stone in what it is today Barcelona style of play.

 

[JPM London]

It's laughable if someone suggests that doping is the sole reason for Barca's and Spain NT rise. No amount of doping can help in vision, awareness, technique, passing ability & understanding of tactics, which the Spanish players have in abundance.
The Spanish are usually less physically exhausted because they hardly give the ball away. It's the other teams who have to chase and they physically exhausted. Both Spain & Barca have problems when playing teams with a very good pressing game as theirs.
Examples are Spain vs Portugal at Euro SF, and Barca vs Atletic Bilbao in the La liga game which ended 2-2.
No amount of doping can help the English players to string three passes together, but it will make therm better at what they are doing now, running like headless chicken.

Partially - what's also laughable is to claim that doping has no effect on performing all those abilities. What's also laughable is to make an "LA type argument" that they're somehow less tired because the keep the ball all the time...

Tell me one thing - think of something you're really great at.
Then consider if you're performing that thing best when you're fresh and full of energy or if you're on the verge of exhaustion.
Doping will all else equal increase speed, power and stamina.
Take your favourite player - make an exact copy of him except the copy is out of shape while the original is on top form. Now ask yourself who performs best - Even the first five minutes the top form original will be better, but over 90 mins it'll really pronounced.

Saying doping doesn't work in football is ignoring simple basic facts, but I agree wholeheartedly that saying success in football - any sport for that matter - can be achieved simply by doping is also silly. Obviously you do need all the technical and tactical skills to even start to compete. But there's no doubt either that a doped Barca/Real stands a way better chance than a clean one - whether either of those two teams do indeed dope I don't know, but there's certainly plenty of indications that they do - just like many other top level teams or players probably do as well. If football was clean those two teams might still be best, but we can't say either way.

Football 2012 is exactly what cycling was in the 90s... Until the go through the same hard labours that cycling has been and is going through nothing of that will change.

Yes, Ronaldo/Messi etc are great football players for their insane skill. But there's no denying that a doped Messi would beat the living daylights out of a clean Messi any day of the week. As we can't really pitch the two Messis against each other and as testing in football is arguably stiffled we can't say either way for certain apart from being extremely suspicious of the sport in general...

 

[sniper]

You have players like Xavi, Iniesta, Cesc, Alonso, Busquets, all outstanding passers of the ball.

but the point is, such outstandingness (e.g. Xavi post-2005) would turn into mediocrecy (e.g. Xavi pre-2005) if you don't have the best juice in town.
You guys have to come to grips with the idea that you don't have the most talented selection. you have a very talented selection, nothing more. They have become exceptional due to their incredible stamina, which allows them to have possession 70% of the match.

Also, come to grips with this:
If you have nobody running into free space, you're passing skills are useless. Spain CONSTANTLY have guys running into free space. Even in the 90th minute, in stoppage time, or in extra time. That's how important stamina is for your passing game. It's everything.

In fact, one of the problems with the Spanish teamis a phisycal one, the serious lack of pace and size across the team that prevents them from being more penetrative an direct.

actually, this shows that in spite of a slight lack of imagination, a suboptimal playing strategy, and unimaginative coaching, Spain is still the strongest world wide. Their style is ineffective, yet they win each match cuz they're able to chase every opponent off the ball. It's stamina that lays the foundations.

And of course the influence of Johan Cruyff who is very much the person who put the first stone in what it is today Barcelona style of play.

being Dutch, I fully agree with you on this point

 

[hrotha]

Typical Sniper. You said "Good point, I'll think about that" when I pointed out Spain had shown signs of being physically inferior to many of their rivals, but then you didn't. Instead, you keep going on about Spain's physical prowess and stamina.

 

[sniper]

Typical Sniper. You said "Good point, I'll think about that" when I pointed out Spain had shown signs of being physically inferior to many of their rivals, but then you didn't. Instead, you keep going on about Spain's physical prowess and stamina.

the good point(s) of your previous post was debunking the parallel between football and cycling.
the part about physical inferiority was a good point merely in as far as it made me think.
I've experienced Spain in the past 4-5 years as being physically superior, you haven't. so that's something i will have to give some thought.

 

[sniper]

Typical Sniper. You said "Good point, I'll think about that" when I pointed out Spain had shown signs of being physically inferior to many of their rivals, but then you didn't. Instead, you keep going on about Spain's physical prowess and stamina.

i said they were good points. they made me think. they did not make me change my mind though

Tell me one thing - think of something you're really great at.
Then consider if you're performing that thing best when you're fresh and full of energy or if you're on the verge of exhaustion.
Doping will all else equal increase speed, power and stamina.
Take your favourite player - make an exact copy of him except the copy is out of shape while the original is on top form. Now ask yourself who performs best - Even the first five minutes the top form original will be better, but over 90 mins it'll really pronounced.

great point. +2. All this blattering about spain being technically superior. For once and for all: it's the dope that allows one to be technically superior. I myself am technically superior when I'm fully fit and have trained regularly for a couple of consecutive weeks. I completely suck technically when I'm out of rythm, e.g. after not having trained for weeks.
the logic is very simple.

Yes, Ronaldo/Messi etc are great football players for their insane skill. But there's no denying that a doped Messi would beat the living daylights out of a clean Messi any day of the week. As we can't really pitch the two Messis against each other and as testing in football is arguably stiffled we can't say either way for certain apart from being extremely suspicious of the sport in general...

this is true.
but what we can do is learn from history. history tells us records are broken when new products come on the market. Records are not broken because training intensity increases -- perhaps in the 50s they were, but my point is that there is no significant difference in training intensity between now and, say, the 90s.
We saw a major drop-back in athletic performances in cycling as soon as EPO was being tested for and as soon as OOC testing was introduced. In football, particularly Spanish football, on the other hand, the athletic performances have increased incredibly in the past decade or so (Xavi now being one of the fittest out there, playing almost every match.). My point is: spectacular records are usually (I'd perhaps even say "by definition", but let's leave some room for error) related to superior doping.

The records of spanish soccer at club and national level are among the greatest in the history of team sports. And with all the indications there are that spain is and has been the mecca of doping -- these are no rumors but more fact-like indications --, one only needs to be willing to connect dots.
This is no proof of course, but merely plausible reasoning leading to the conclusion that doping in Spanish soccer is more advanced, or more extreme, as in other countries.

 

[The Hitch]

I repeat I believe Spain lost on the stamina front to most of their rivals at the 2010 WC, so no, I don't believe they have superior doping structures, unless all Spanish players just happen to be average athletes. I don't deny doping is omnipresent in football. The suspicions of Spanish football have more to do with the tainted reputation of Spain than with anything that happens on the field.

It's not a perfect parallel, because technique is much more important in football than in cycling. In cycling, PEDs give an insurmountable advantage. In football, PEDs give a big advantage. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I thought Spain were physically superior to their rivals these past 4 years, but again, that's not what I saw. Especially at the 2010 WC, Spain's lack of stamina was alarming.

Armstrong was physically superior to everyone else (thanks to PEDs). I don't see that in Spain. That's the difference.

Their 5 foot midfielders are having absolutely no problem with people twice their size. Meanwhile in the running department they destroyed everyone. Its like Wiggins holding his own in the mountains - supposed to be his weakness, and everyone says oh look his watts arent as high as Pantani, ignoring the fact that its someone not supposed to be doing anywhere as well in that department, and of course is vastly superior in his own one - tt. Same with spain. they are holding their own in their achilles heel, and destroying everyone on their strenght.

Also its important to consider that Spains game is far more tiring than what other teams play so them tiring for once, especially at altitude, is not a sign of having inferior stamina. Someone who is more tired after running 10 000m than someone who just did 6000 does not neccesarily have weaker stamina.

 

[Albatros]

Typical Sniper. You said "Good point, I'll think about that" when I pointed out Spain had shown signs of being physically inferior to many of their rivals, but then you didn't. Instead, you keep going on about Spain's physical prowess and stamina.

Exactly that. The problem is you point at the figures and he doesn't agree either. So It is going to be impossible to convince him.

 

[Albatros]

Their 5 foot midfielders are having absolutely no problem with people twice their size. Meanwhile in the running department they destroyed everyone. Its like Wiggins holding his own in the mountains - supposed to be his weakness, and everyone says oh look his watts arent as high as Pantani, ignoring the fact that its someone not supposed to be doing anywhere as well in that department, and of course is vastly superior in his own one - tt. Same with spain. they are holding their own in their achilles heel, and destroying everyone on their strenght.

Also its important to consider that Spains game is far more tiring than what other teams play so them tiring for once, especially at altitude, is not a sign of having inferior stamina. Someone who is more tired after running 10 000m than someone who just did 6000 does not neccesarily have weaker stamina.

So, you mean that being short naturally decreases your stamina?

Do Spain have the strongest and paciest players? No way.

Do they cover more distance than anyone else? Neither, although they hold their own in that respect.

And I can gaurantee you that Spain never had a collection of midfielders with such technical ability as they have now. If that ability comes from EPO taking or whatever, why si it that players like Torres, Puyol or Arbeloa are poor or relatively poor on the ball compared to his teamates?

If I have to convice people on this forum that tchnical ability and athleticism do not go hand in hand I am going to have a hard time here.

 

[Albatros]

but the point is, such outstandingness (e.g. Xavi post-2005) would turn into mediocrecy (e.g. Xavi pre-2005) if you don't have the best juice in town.
You guys have to come to grips with the idea that you don't have the most talented selection. you have a very talented selection, nothing more. They have become exceptional due to their incredible stamina, which allows them to have possession 70% of the match.

Also, come to grips with this:
If you have nobody running into free space, you're passing skills are useless. Spain CONSTANTLY have guys running into free space. Even in the 90th minute, in stoppage time, or in extra time. That's how important stamina is for your passing game. It's everything.



actually, this shows that in spite of a slight lack of imagination, a suboptimal playing strategy, and unimaginative coaching, Spain is still the strongest world wide. Their style is ineffective, yet they win each match cuz they're able to chase every opponent off the ball. It's stamina that lays the foundations.


being Dutch, I fully agree with you on this point

Being Dutch must surely allow you to notice that De Jong , Van Bommel and the likes are no Johan Cruyff or Neeskens when it comes to kicking the ball with ability. Yet your NT came an honorable second in the last world Cup. Second team best doped after Spain?

 

[Caruut]

If I have to convice people on this forum that tchnical ability and athleticism do not go hand in hand I am going to have a hard time here.

They are neither fully correlated not entirely unrelated. The effect that PEDs have on recovery and stamina means that one could potentially devise a course of PEDs that allowed a player to train harder and longer - this would be enormously beneficial to the technical skill and uncanny teamwork that is a hallmark of Barcelona's (and to a lesser degree, Spain's) play.

One must also consider the fact that fine motor control and quick thinking do not come naturally to people who are exhausted. A tactically simple and less technical "English-style" game plan should be far easier to execute when tired. No need to control the ball, find yourself some space, look up and make a pass to the team-mate in the best position, you just lump it up to the big man and see what happens. As such, being fresh at the end of the game is, in my opinion, very important to the Spanish style of play.

It is also important to perhaps rewind a bit and look at the long-term effect of an effective program. Even if Spain are putting in similar athletic numbers to their opposition, this does not tell us the full story. Perhaps they are able to select the technically best players who would previously not have been of a suitable athletic standard for high-level football. A good PED program might widen their potential pool of selection for the team.

Of course this is all theorising.

 

[hrotha]

You just have to look at Xavi at this Euro. He wasn't in form, and he kind of sucked. Being physically fit (and hence getting a PED boost) is very important in football.

 

[the asian]

i said they were good points. they made me think. they did not make me change my mind though



great point. +2. All this blattering about spain being technically superior. For once and for all: it's the dope that allows one to be technically superior. I myself am technically superior when I'm fully fit and have trained regularly for a couple of consecutive weeks. I completely suck technically when I'm out of rythm, e.g. after not having trained for weeks.
the logic is very simple.



this is true.
but what we can do is learn from history. history tells us records are broken when new products come on the market. Records are not broken because training intensity increases -- perhaps in the 50s they were, but my point is that there is no significant difference in training intensity between now and, say, the 90s.
We saw a major drop-back in athletic performances in cycling as soon as EPO was being tested for and as soon as OOC testing was introduced. In football, particularly Spanish football, on the other hand, the athletic performances have increased incredibly in the past decade or so (Xavi now being one of the fittest out there, playing almost every match.).

My point is: spectacular records are usually (I'd perhaps even say "by definition", but let's leave some room for error) related to superior doping.

The records of spanish soccer at club and national level are among the greatest in the history of team sports. And with all the indications there are that spain is and has been the mecca of doping -- these are no rumors but more fact-like indications --, one only needs to be willing to connect dots.
This is no proof of course, but merely plausible reasoning leading to the conclusion that doping in Spanish soccer is more advanced, or more extreme, as in other countries.

Xavi was not at his best at the Euros. He only performed up to his optimal level in the Finals He was even subbed out in the Semis.

Spain did not play at their optimum level in the group stages and QF/SF at the Euros. The only instance where they showed what they were capable of was in the Finals. They did not employ the full press in most of the games. They played a slow tempo passing game at the Euros, rarely giving away the ball, but also creating few chances. They played well within their means leading to less exhaustion & tiredness.

 

[Bala Verde]

[...]
Also, come to grips with this:
If you have nobody running into free space, you're passing skills are useless. Spain CONSTANTLY have guys running into free space. Even in the 90th minute, in stoppage time, or in extra time. That's how important stamina is for your passing game. It's everything.

[...]


being Dutch, I fully agree with you on this point

Being dutch, you must have heard of 'temporizing' a match, or, in other words, determine and set the pace of the game.

They don't run full out, for a full 90 minutes, every match. They don't run into free spaces all the time.

Just like the dutch (style), they can move the ball around, and keep possession, without actually exhausting themselves. It's only when they set up an attack and accelerate the ball speed that they will start moving positions (faster), and run into free spaces, which in effect, will affect their stamina. In most cases, that doesn't happen 90 minutes long.

If you saw Barcelona play (and lose to) Chelsea (CL; second game), you could notice how Barcelona was allowed to just walk the ball, all the way from their own penalty box, over to half way Chelsea's midfield, without any physical trouble.

Chelsea, down one man, had changed tactics and adopted a very compact defending style, meaning they most likely spent relatively less energy, because they, as a team, didn't have to/decided not to cover the whole field any longer. They changed their focus to become extremely dangerous on the counter instead.

Why - besides having one man less - because with such a style you concede they initiative to the other team and you hope that major gaps will open up between Barcelona's lines, often with people out of (defensive) positions [see below]. And when Barcelona lost possession, they were then forced to defend a counter. With their 'total football and forward thinking style,' Barcelona then had to quickly respond and switch, preferably all, of them, into defensive positions, to chase, and/or effectively defend and cover the counter.

In a way, Chelsea's highly compact defensive and counter attack style forced Barcelona to play a much more physical, and endurance based style, also in relation to Chelsea' defensive tactics, as compared to their more traditional, or familiar, possession based passing style, which relies partially on the other team being out of position [i.e. pre-existing openings], and a much larger use of the field. With one man down, possession was effectively conceded by Chelsea to Barcelona, and Chelsea focused solely on their central defensive area, around the penalty box and defensive midfield.

With such a compact defensive style, there are no, to very few, pre-existing openings; also, fewer people, with fewer tasks, can accidentally run out of position; in effect, openings now had to be created with constant and fast position changes and a constant high ball tempo. You can only do that for so long, before you run out of air.

In a way, Barcelona was now forced to determine the pace of the game at an exceedingly high level to force an opening.

It's "much easier" (relatively speaking) to determine the pace of the game, when the other team attempts to use the entire field (keeping the field wide, or open), and when a team can run out of position (which you can use to temporize and quickly set up a play). Usually matches are open, (as opposed to closed and compact), because both teams feel strong enough to set up their own attack; it's much more difficult to find an opening and set up an attack, when 10 men are sitting at or around the penalty box, when they focus only on defense, and don't give away any space.

The "larger the (use of the) field," the bigger the pre-existing openings.

Barcelona, that second game, created very few chances.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's laughable if someone suggests that doping is the sole reason for Barca's and Spain NT rise. No amount of doping can help in vision, awareness, technique, passing ability & understanding of tactics, which the Spanish players have in abundance.
The Spanish are usually less physically exhausted because they hardly give the ball away. It's the other teams who have to chase and they physically exhausted. Both Spain & Barca have problems when playing teams with a very good pressing game as theirs.
Examples are Spain vs Portugal at Euro SF, and Barca vs Atletic Bilbao in the La liga game which ended 2-2.
No amount of doping can help the English players to string three passes together, but it will make therm better at what they are doing now, running like headless chicken.

That was a great game, and I came away from it full of disgust at another late equalizer from Barcelona, but to be honest the factor behind it being so exciting was not so much Athletic playing the same pressing game as Barcelona, but the combination of them doing that alongside heavy rain rendering the pitch sodden and making Barcelona's usual passing game much harder; they were having to run TO the ball rather than run into the space and the ball be sent to them, so progress was much slower.

 

[Albatros]

They are neither fully correlated not entirely unrelated. The effect that PEDs have on recovery and stamina means that one could potentially devise a course of PEDs that allowed a player to train harder and longer - this would be enormously beneficial to the technical skill and uncanny teamwork that is a hallmark of Barcelona's (and to a lesser degree, Spain's) play.

One must also consider the fact that fine motor control and quick thinking do not come naturally to people who are exhausted. A tactically simple and less technical "English-style" game plan should be far easier to execute when tired. No need to control the ball, find yourself some space, look up and make a pass to the team-mate in the best position, you just lump it up to the big man and see what happens. As such, being fresh at the end of the game is, in my opinion, very important to the Spanish style of play.

It is also important to perhaps rewind a bit and look at the long-term effect of an effective program. Even if Spain are putting in similar athletic numbers to their opposition, this does not tell us the full story. Perhaps they are able to select the technically best players who would previously not have been of a suitable athletic standard for high-level football. A good PED program might widen their potential pool of selection for the team.

Of course this is all theorising.

Fully agree. So I am not going to argue with someone who shares the same opinion. What I wanted to say is that no matter how many drugs you put into most players bodys they are not going to have the vision, game intelligence and passing ability of Xavi.

Xavi is one of the players that covers most distance during a game, but there are other midfielders who are very close. Where they are far behind is in their understanding of the game, the way he protects the ball, the way he is able to compute what is around him and who to deliver the ball to, his passing ability, his vision.

Obviously Xavi must be fit and run to do even the simplest of tasks, but that is not what separates from the rest of midfielders who cover a similar distance to him, but his football ability.

I am the first here to believe hat he is most likely helped by PEDs as well as his teammates, but I don't see a clearcut difference between Spain athletic performance and that of other teams.

The numbers do not seem to indicate that either. So unless their athletic base was clearly inferior before taking the PEDs they are not doping better than the rest. But how do you work that out?

 

[sniper]

They are neither fully correlated not entirely unrelated. The effect that PEDs have on recovery and stamina means that one could potentially devise a course of PEDs that allowed a player to train harder and longer - this would be enormously beneficial to the technical skill and uncanny teamwork that is a hallmark of Barcelona's (and to a lesser degree, Spain's) play.

One must also consider the fact that fine motor control and quick thinking do not come naturally to people who are exhausted. A tactically simple and less technical "English-style" game plan should be far easier to execute when tired. No need to control the ball, find yourself some space, look up and make a pass to the team-mate in the best position, you just lump it up to the big man and see what happens. As such, being fresh at the end of the game is, in my opinion, very important to the Spanish style of play.

It is also important to perhaps rewind a bit and look at the long-term effect of an effective program. Even if Spain are putting in similar athletic numbers to their opposition, this does not tell us the full story. Perhaps they are able to select the technically best players who would previously not have been of a suitable athletic standard for high-level football. A good PED program might widen their potential pool of selection for the team.

Of course this is all theorising.

This is about the best post I've read thus far in this thread.
Sums up my previously expressed thoughts, though in a way far more eloquent, diplomatic, and to the point than I ever could.

p.s. The larger-pool-theory is tantalizing!

 

[sniper]

Hajo Seppelt on Kenian wonderathletes:

Long years of experience in international topsport has shown: when there is such a remarkable accumulation of world class performances, progressions, and big results, then one has to be skeptical. http://olympia.ard.de/london2012/allemeldungen/doping219.html

"remarkable accumulation of world class performances, progressions, and big results"
reminds me of something

 

[Bala Verde]

Hajo Seppelt on Kenian wonderathletes:



"remarkable accumulation of world class performances, progressions, and big results"
reminds me of something

Meaning, the dutch in the 70s - international: 74 and 78/ club: ajax 71;72;73 clearly had the best program.