been lurking on the Clinic for a little while and would like the Clinic's opinion on how much goes on in Swimming. I remember Gary Hall Jr saying is was pretty bad a couple years back and he got mocked and ridiculed by some in the swim community. been involved in the sport my whole life and in the past few years have seen some things that just appear too good to be true.
-
The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Doping in Swimming
- Thread starter fuzzydunlop3
- Start date
Nobody ever tests positive in swimming so it must be clean right?
Seriously though. Swimming has got to be one of the worst. Just look at them.
Seriously though. Swimming has got to be one of the worst. Just look at them.
the sceptic said:
there's been some high profile swimmers who have failed tests (Thorpe, Cielo, Hardy, Mellouli etc) yet the sport has no heat on it compared to other endurance sports like cycling and track and field. In the US, our swim community doesn't even question Dara Torres except for a small minority.
Phelps = Mr HGH Head
It's every bit as bad as tennis, cycling, track, NFL etc when it comes to doping. Testing is as weak as in Tennis.
Don't forget that racism plays an important role in finger pointing when it comes to swimming - Chinese girl breaks a record - must be doping, good white girl breaks a record previously held by some nasty old doper from the GDR and its a triumph of clean swimming.
It's every bit as bad as tennis, cycling, track, NFL etc when it comes to doping. Testing is as weak as in Tennis.
Don't forget that racism plays an important role in finger pointing when it comes to swimming - Chinese girl breaks a record - must be doping, good white girl breaks a record previously held by some nasty old doper from the GDR and its a triumph of clean swimming.
"Normal" T:E ration is 1:1 and even less in Asians. The "allowance" by WADA is, I believe 4:1. So you can have 4 times the amount of testosterone relative to epitestosterone and still be considered clean.
Think about that. Four times as much. Not 3% more, 300% more testosterone.
And Thorpe tested high.
They made it go away.
Think about that. Four times as much. Not 3% more, 300% more testosterone.
And Thorpe tested high.
They made it go away.
Dear Wiggo said:
does WADA or USADA use the Carbon Isotope Ratio testing? Would that test help in detecting synthetic testosterone?
so basically what they have now with the 4:1 ratio is very similar to the keep your hematocrit under 50 that existed in cycling?
fuzzydunlop3 said:
Essentially yes. It used to be 6:1, but was lowered to 4:1. Rightly so, they wish to avoid false positives, and I get that. But it still seems ridiculous.
They should institute extraordinary individual testing procedures to determine baselines for people wishing to have exceptions, IMO.
And start at "normal" for everyone.
The potential benefits of doping are so obvious it's hard to believe they wouldn't be doing it. Swimmers certainly embraced the faster swimwear during the period when it was allowed.
I posted something on Torres last year. I compared her comeback with that of Janet Evans, who is actually a little younger than Torres, and who as a distance swimmer might be thought to decline in performance a little more slowly than a sprinter like Torres. Evans failed to make the Olympic team, and her performance seemed quite a bit more realistic than Torres. IIRC, she was unable to match her best time when she was in her twenties, which is what you would expect. Same with Mark Spitz, more of a sprinter, when he tried to come back in his forties. Granted, Evans and Spitz were coming back from a much longer layoff than Torres was, but I really don't think all of an age-related decline can be avoided simply by staying active most of the time.
There's a two-fold problem. First, you can't perform as well at forty as you did at twenty. Second, even if you could, the best times twenty years ago are not world class today. Some of that is no doubt due to doping, but not all, because swimming times have been plummeting dramatically for decades, long before EPO, and probably before steroid use became widespread.
I think the racism angle is overblown. The Chinese girl's performance was much harder to explain than anyone else's. Remember, she actually had a final fifty split about the same as Ryan Lochte's. In contrast, Chinese swimmer Sun Yang dominated the male distance events, and no one pointed a finger at him. Certain Korean swimmers, and before them the Japanese, have emerged rather suddenly onto the world scene, and no one accuses them of doping.
I posted something on Torres last year. I compared her comeback with that of Janet Evans, who is actually a little younger than Torres, and who as a distance swimmer might be thought to decline in performance a little more slowly than a sprinter like Torres. Evans failed to make the Olympic team, and her performance seemed quite a bit more realistic than Torres. IIRC, she was unable to match her best time when she was in her twenties, which is what you would expect. Same with Mark Spitz, more of a sprinter, when he tried to come back in his forties. Granted, Evans and Spitz were coming back from a much longer layoff than Torres was, but I really don't think all of an age-related decline can be avoided simply by staying active most of the time.
There's a two-fold problem. First, you can't perform as well at forty as you did at twenty. Second, even if you could, the best times twenty years ago are not world class today. Some of that is no doubt due to doping, but not all, because swimming times have been plummeting dramatically for decades, long before EPO, and probably before steroid use became widespread.
I think the racism angle is overblown. The Chinese girl's performance was much harder to explain than anyone else's. Remember, she actually had a final fifty split about the same as Ryan Lochte's. In contrast, Chinese swimmer Sun Yang dominated the male distance events, and no one pointed a finger at him. Certain Korean swimmers, and before them the Japanese, have emerged rather suddenly onto the world scene, and no one accuses them of doping.
when GHJ had the forum on his club website: The Race Club, I had some personal message dialogue with him.fuzzydunlop3 said:
Why Thorpe ever went with Gennadi eyes roll emoticon
Why Swimming Australia * covered up a positive in 1998 from a future WR holder. This was not Thorpe.
*Chinese whispers caveat.
blackcat said:
I loved the Race Club forums. I wish there were archives where i could read the old posts. for a high level athlete, I found Gary's willingness to talk about doping very refreshing. what were your impressions of him based on your interactions? I wonder how he felt about Gennadi and Popov.
only shared about a dozen pms.fuzzydunlop3 said:
generous in his replies.
but one gotta be realistic, just like "he is a nice guy" view with respect to every athlete we only see on tv, like Oscar P, I did not have enough personal interaction with GHJ.
I assume he was genuine on having a no doping sport of swimming.
but I have seen Federers jaw thicken like hgh user, but everyone only hears Rogers wish for the biopassport. Be better Roger telling about Ashenden's pov on the mbp, but saying it could help, but you cant prove a negative.
so, I dont believe in Federer now, but would like to think GHJ was genuine. I dont think he had confidence in Australians, nor many of his own countreymen/women
fuzzydunlop3 said:
all would doped, only one got sprung. usually they dont like to catch them so it saves them from covering it up.
Mad Elephant Man said:
Yup. Never tested positive for beaver tranquilizers either. Clean as a whistle. Dara Torres never tested positive for a beaver tranquilizer either. Squeaky clean at 40-something.
Old news for some: As Ashenden uncovered last week, the federations can just not test the athlete. They appear to have some influence over how the tests are chosen to pass onto experts because Ashenden did not get *any* of Wonderboy's tests after a certain date for the "Wonderboy comeback."
Wonderboy was squeaky clean during is comeback. Oh wait, Wonderboy's tests were glowing red-hot positive. Swimming is clean though. Amaaaaazzingly clean. It's cycling that has the doping problem.
fuzzydunlop3 said:
I would say all three!
We had a good swimming discussion last year on here and it's worth having a look.
Interesting article on BBC about why Australian swimming did so poorly in the Olympics:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21501881
Well, I suppose they are not likely to blame it on drugs (or lack of them).....but it does show the effect on performance team morale can have
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21501881
Well, I suppose they are not likely to blame it on drugs (or lack of them).....but it does show the effect on performance team morale can have
DirtyWorks said:Yup. Never tested positive for beaver tranquilizers either. Clean as a whistle. Dara Torres never tested positive for a beaver tranquilizer either. Squeaky clean at 40-something.
Old news for some: As Ashenden uncovered last week, the federations can just not test the athlete. They appear to have some influence over how the tests are chosen to pass onto experts because Ashenden did not get *any* of Wonderboy's tests after a certain date for the "Wonderboy comeback."
Wonderboy was squeaky clean during is comeback. Oh wait, Wonderboy's tests were glowing red-hot positive. Swimming is clean though. Amaaaaazzingly clean. It's cycling that has the doping problem.
Oh look, someone took my feet comment seriously.
Please excuse me while I go outside to laugh at them, it would be rude to do it right in front of them
martinvickers
BANNED
blackcat said:
Roger F seems, to my uneducated eye, to be a fairly clear story.
Best player of his generation, possibly ever, more or less clean, completely dominant...until a batch of 'marathon men' 5hr freaks caught up with him...a few years of getting beaten around a bit...followed by his 'comeback' to world no 1 where he can more or less hang with these guys again...the implication is obvious enough - and would also explain why he might favour more testing ("if we all have to stop, I'll beat those sods again")
When a 15 year old breaks a world record by 2 minutes, at whatever distance, someone is cheating (I´m talking about the American, by the way).
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Liege Bastogne Liege-7 hour monument, Sunday, April 21, 2024- Started by topcat
- Replies: 985
-
Paris - Roubaix 2024, one day monument, April 7- Started by Dreginald
- Replies: 2K
-
77th Tour de Romandie (2.UWT) // 23rd - 28th of April 2024- Started by Logic-is-your-friend
- Replies: 507
-
De Ronde van Vlaanderen (270.8 km), 2024 March 31 (Sunday)- Started by Netserk
- Replies: 1K
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 24K
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram