Doping in XC skiing

[Kokoso]

That all said, I wonder why Czech biathletes are so quick and we're losing them in XC faster than Bauer loses hair.

Can you specify who do you mean? Because I don't really see any XC athletes who we are losing.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

For a moment I though I was watching the '99 TdF, but it was the '15 TdS with Bjoergen.
Like the rest of the field went clean after 2014 and Bjoergen missed the memo.

Kowalzyk skiing worse than ever technically makes her about as suspect as Bjoergen, but then, she was never not suspect before.

On one level, the superiority of the Norwegian women is ridiculous. And within Norway, Bjoergen is laughable. Not just her performances, but considering they come from an ultra muscular lady. Lance is merely her skinny sidekick really.

In biathlon, the best Norwegian skiers, who can win XC races just as well as their XC fellow countrymen, have good competition from other countries. Their women are rarely on top ski form, and would be useless in XC. Why are the biathlon women so slow in Norway? Not a biathlon country anymore? But if it's true they have such a vast base of WC-worthy skiers, why doesn't a part of them go biathlon and wreck the field Bjoerndalen style?
Is there something "special" about the training environment (coaches, soigneurs) for the XC women that the rest of the country doesn't get?

That all said, I wonder why Czech biathletes are so quick and we're losing them in XC faster than Bauer loses hair.

And what's with the Russian XC men? Post Olympic year?

-----------------------------

It's a presumption here in Norway that especially the Russians, but also skiers from other nations, are taking it a bit easy between the olympic years, or possibly still in the buildup to the seasons big target, the world championship.

I don't like Bjørgen much as either person or skier, but I would say she is skinnier/less muscular this season, than she was before. In comparison with Kowalczyk in the last race, Norwegian commentators had splits on the uphill/downhill sections, and these skiers had the same speed uphill, Bjørgen killed her in the downhill though, taking 7-10 seconds on each round in the long downhill. It could indicate that not only skiing technique, but also ski-preparation, could play a big part. Commentators also went on about how the French have had horrible skis all season.

http://www.nrk.no/sport/bjorgens-maktdemonstrasjon-1.12130378
The arms really are not as powerful as they look in that crazy picture from a year or so.

Northug blasting through on the last downhill and to victory, could also indicate that we have some new "ski-doping" going on. The only legal doping, but still sad, when sports are decided by equipment.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Nothing new. Bjoergen demolishes the field, again. There was a bigger gap between first and second then there was from 7-28. I know the women's field isn't very strong, but Bjoergen, at the age of 34, not looking tired at all, just crushed the field. Kowalczyk seems to have gained some form back. Of course, she skis the downhills about as good as an 8 year old. She would have been on the podium easily today.

----------------

Nothing new, and yet Bjørgen has never won the Tour De Ski. Lets see how it goes in the next days, and in the last hill.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

swedish trainer's comments

http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/12/10/sport/charlotte_kalla/langrenn/ski/age_skinstad/36660112/

Kalla's coach Ingesson says that Norwegians are training so hard that they risk destroying their athletes, but that they probably can afford it, because of the large number of skiers they have.

He should know about the training regime, as his athlete Kalla has been training for some periods with Norwegians Johaug and Bjørgen.

 

[python]

Northug blasting through on the last downhill and to victory, could also indicate that we have some new "ski-doping" going on. The only legal doping, but still sad, when sports are decided by equipment.

could be, but i am not sure...dyrhaug - also a norwegian - was right there but his skis did not turn jets...neither sundby's skis were jets compared to the swedes in there - hellner and halfvarsson (though, sundby did step on his pole with 0.5 k to go)

i have been involved in a discussion with someone about the very issue...we reviewed the last moments of the video several times. northug's good position (5th), a powerful downhill kick, daredevil risk and some luck to boot have resulted in that dash slicing between the 2 who took a longer curve down..and yes, his skis were waxed for gliding with smaller kick zone, as he often does in such weather...to favour his double poling power when matters. dozens of examples....
----
decided to add a link( as you're in norway, you shall not be geo restricted)
http://tv.nrk.no/serie/tour-de-ski

...start at 41: 21 -race clock
then 41:40 when he double kicked ahead of the italian and harvey (the 2 he passed between)
the rest was the incontestable sprint power he's known for.

 

[Cloxxki]

-----------------------------


http://www.nrk.no/sport/bjorgens-maktdemonstrasjon-1.12130378
The arms really are not as powerful as they look in that crazy picture from a year or so.

Yes, you seem to be right, although I'd substitute "powerful" for "obscene". If anything, it shows that Bjoergen has gotten better at hiding her growth rather than has gone soft on us. We all know that if an endurance athlete doesn't want huge bulging muscles, there are ways to tone those down without sacrificing much or any strength.

Are the Norwegian girls such great actresses, or do they really love Bjoergen as a sister? If I were a clean skier in that team I'd not declare my love for her as convincingly.

I hope Johaug somehow wins it anyway. With her at least there seems to be a reasonable physiological way to explain her speed. And she is being bested in double poling by almost whomever she sprints against.

 

[Kokoso]

Yes, you seem to be right, although I'd substitute "powerful" for "obscene". If anything, it shows that Bjoergen has gotten better at hiding her growth rather than has gone soft on us. We all know that if an endurance athlete doesn't want huge bulging muscles, there are ways to tone those down without sacrificing much or any strength.

Are the Norwegian girls such great actresses, or do they really love Bjoergen as a sister? If I were a clean skier in that team I'd not declare my love for her as convincingly.

I hope Johaug somehow wins it anyway. With her at least there seems to be a reasonable physiological way to explain her speed. And she is being bested in double poling by almost whomever she sprints against.

I'm sorry for asking again but probably you missed it first time. Can you specify which Czech athletes are we losing?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

how did she do ? to be sure, she collected several medals in 2007 and 2009. but when she raced the long events, particularly in supporo duathlon and the 30k, she was dropped like a rock by the leading girls, including her bony team mates steira and then a youngster johaug...like a rock ! you can see her gasping for air, you can clearly see her technique deteriorating from fatigue, you can see her splits sliding and sliding...

That's because Kristin Størmer Steira is awesome and my idea of a proper skier. There are very few pure endurance athletes left in the sport on the women's side; a legacy partly of the proliferation of sprints, but also to do with some pretty poor opportunities to race distance among the women. Men get 35k, women 15k? I mean, really? Why not 25k? Now, the number of races where a Steira can't be competitive is far too high (that she's injured notwithstanding, obviously).

This is perhaps also part of the problem in that the pure endurance athletes are needing to improve their sprinting and their short distance racing in order to be competitive in more races, which may mean they spend more time training on this aspect and the advantage they hold over the Bjørgens and Kowalczyks of the world in the distance races becomes eroded.

Yes, you seem to be right, although I'd substitute "powerful" for "obscene". If anything, it shows that Bjoergen has gotten better at hiding her growth rather than has gone soft on us. We all know that if an endurance athlete doesn't want huge bulging muscles, there are ways to tone those down without sacrificing much or any strength.

Are the Norwegian girls such great actresses, or do they really love Bjoergen as a sister? If I were a clean skier in that team I'd not declare my love for her as convincingly.

I hope Johaug somehow wins it anyway. With her at least there seems to be a reasonable physiological way to explain her speed. And she is being bested in double poling by almost whomever she sprints against.

Heidi Weng ftw. She's a good climber, albeit not as much as Johaug, and has managed to fluke her way through some sprints recently, Lillehammer was a shock. The advantage that Bjørgen has at the moment is so huge, however, I can't really see her losing it from here.

However, if somebody like Weng is getting good at the sprints, it only exacerbates the problem I talk about above. The sprints have their place in the World Cup calendar, but right now the balance is all wrong in both aspects because the sprinters get half the races in the calendar tailored for them but because the TdS and the other stage races pay so many points they can seldom actually compete in the World Cup overall.

 

[Cloxxki]

I'm sorry for asking again but probably you missed it first time. Can you specify which Czech athletes are we losing?

I was avoiding a lengthy discussion as you exchanged with LS. And you asking again confirms my reasons
I just meant that it's strange Czech biathletes can skate with the best of the world, or very close, which we know is XC world class. But in XC is seems rarer to see Czechs up front now that Bauer lost his magic, or has it fewer times per season. That's all I have to say about that for now.

 

[Kokoso]

I was avoiding a lengthy discussion as you exchanged with LS. And you asking again confirms my reasons
I just meant that it's strange Czech biathletes can skate with the best of the world, or very close, which we know is XC world class. But in XC is seems rarer to see Czechs up front now that Bauer lost his magic, or has it fewer times per season. That's all I have to say about that for now.

That confirms nothing but your preconceptions, you could be bit more polite. Anyway this one statement is basically very different than the first one And what is so strange on athletes in sport performing than athletes in another?
Bauer is 37 years old so he's getting worse slowly, don't know if this is about any "magic".

 

[TomasC]

I was avoiding a lengthy discussion as you exchanged with LS. And you asking again confirms my reasons
I just meant that it's strange Czech biathletes can skate with the best of the world, or very close, which we know is XC world class. But in XC is seems rarer to see Czechs up front now that Bauer lost his magic, or has it fewer times per season. That's all I have to say about that for now.

I think it's just because they are two different sports with different following and probably more importantly the whole organization and training is completely independent. And while the group of people behind Nove Mesto (and now all the Czech biathlon) really seems to have succeeded in starting a good thing both marketing & sports wise, the XC apparatus is somewhat dormant.
Also, you could say the same thing about several nations, e.g. Swedes, albeit the other way around.
That having been said, you never know - a new Martin Koukal may be lurking just behind the next turn

 

[Cloxxki]

I agree about killed distance for women.

Their events are way shorter. Is there an official reason as to why?

Organizers go out of their way to make shorter courses for women, even sprints and prologues. Or if that doesn't work, longer for the men. Women's XC is going the way of speed skating. One can win it all.

 

[python]

I think it's just because they are two different sports with different following and probably more importantly the whole organization and training is completely independent.

this seems a reasonable explanation to me...both the xc and biathlon are relatively small compared to say hockey... i lived in prague for almost 2 years. any time i'd try to drag my czech friends to xc ski on weekends, they smiled at me by referring to an important hockey game to watch...

as for lucas bauer, i think he's one of the sports greats to be remembered for his impeccable classic style and for his ballsy racing...but don't kid yourself. he's likely still competing and respected as a natural great b/c at some point he decided to save his legacy over another enhanced win.

the decision less wise and more greedy (and perhaps less talented) have paid dearly for

 

[MrRoboto]

why was she 'human' then ?

one possible answer could be that she could have been un-doped or less doped than the competition. those who did beat her included a crop that later either was proven doping, failed a hg test or fall under the suspicion by association - smigun, zavialova, evi sachenbacher....another reason, like armstrong in the early 90s, she might have been on too many steroids that only later got properly integrated into a 'harmonious' programme..

regardless, i do not believe she is destroying a 'clean' field today. her occasional slips may point to a 'learning curve'. i also do not exclude a natural hormone issue which makes her 'like no other girls' ...

She was quite dominating back in Oberstdorf 2005 though.

 

[Kokoso]

That having been said, you never know - a new Martin Koukal may be lurking just behind the next turn

That's unlikely nowadays, 2003 were different times. Anyway in younger categories they are relatively competitive but later not. At least now I percieve it like that now.
Agree on that biathlon is more popular and funtionaries are doing their jobs better than in XC. I begin to fear national coach Petrasek is one reason. Surely he's one big headed man.

Anyway one really doesn't need explanation for fact that there aren't athletes on the same level in every sport. Don't why Cloxxki consideres this strange. Maybe on his country there are... say water poloists on the same level as skiers

 

[Kokoso]

as for lucas bauer, i think he's one of the sports greats to be remembered for his impeccable classic style and for his ballsy racing...but don't kid yourself. he's likely still competing and respected as a natural great b/c at some point he decided to save his legacy over another enhanced win.

the decision less wise and more greedy (and perhaps less talented) have paid dearly for

Why do you think Bauer doped? I don't know, I can't think of any unnatural performances. One of the more cleaner looking athletes, but I know I may be biased.

Anyway I agree, one of the biggest xc skiers of all time. If not for sprint era development and opponents doping in biggest events (i.e. Veerpalu) he'd have more achievements.

 

[Kokoso]

Why do you think Bauer doped? I don't know, I can't think of any unnatural performances. One of the more cleaner looking athletes, but I know I may be biased.

Anyway I agree, one of the biggest xc skiers of all time. If not for sprint era development and opponents doping in biggest events (i.e. Veerpalu) he'd have more achievements.

And mass starts of course. That's what really killed him. So much events where he was strongest, maked race, dragged the others and lost to them in finish.
Andy change of profiles to easier too I suppose. He's old era skier.

 

[python]

Why do you think Bauer doped? I don't know, I can't think of any unnatural performances. One of the more cleaner looking athletes, but I know I may be biased.

Anyway I agree, one of the biggest xc skiers of all time. If not for sprint era development and opponents doping in biggest events (i.e. Veerpalu) he'd have more achievements.

look, i dont have a crystal ball, nor did i ever claimed to...simply put, i like and respect lucas for what i have seen with my own eyes.

but i also have followed (and practiced) the sport for long enough to ask specific questions about the era certain wins have been the contemporary to. that's as much as i can answer w/o being dishonest.

again, without a doubt lucas is a huge talent. albeit, an aging one.

was his racing style and talent negatively influenced/limited by the xc developments ? perhaps. yet, he chose to stay and compete fully aware of the consequences. thus, the point is fair yet moot.

 

[TomasC]

That's unlikely nowadays, 2003 were different times. Anyway in younger categories they are relatively competitive but later not. At least now I percieve it like that now. ...

I was referring specifically to Martin Koukal's surprising win in 50 km in Val di Fiemme 2003. I agree that it's near impossible today but mainly because the mass start. With interval start, anything could happen in 50 km - usually there's nobody to help when you have a crisis, you have to care for your tempo yourself etc.

 

[olhell]

could be, but i am not sure...dyrhaug - also a norwegian - was right there but his skis did not turn jets...neither sundby's skis were jets compared to the swedes in there - hellner and halfvarsson (though, sundby did step on his pole with 0.5 k to go)

i have been involved in a discussion with someone about the very issue...we reviewed the last moments of the video several times. northug's good position (5th), a powerful downhill kick, daredevil risk and some luck to boot have resulted in that dash slicing between the 2 who took a longer curve down..and yes, his skis were waxed for gliding with smaller kick zone, as he often does in such weather...to favour his double poling power when matters. dozens of examples....
----
decided to add a link( as you're in norway, you shall not be geo restricted)
http://tv.nrk.no/serie/tour-de-ski

...start at 41: 21 -race clock
then 41:40 when he double kicked ahead of the italian and harvey (the 2 he passed between)
the rest was the incontestable sprint power he's known for.

NRK article about Northugs manouvering abilities:
http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-northug-leser-loypa-pa-en-helt-annen-mate-enn-de-andre-1.12133039

 

[kingjr]

The most likely candidate to my mind is still Alexis Bœuf given his sudden retirement and his even more sudden and chronic loss of form before the Olympics last year. However, while there is still plenty of chance for an IBU Cup name, if it is somebody who has DNSed a race out of nowhere at Hochfilzen or Östersund, most of them are either young or inexperienced athletes in planned absences (eg Braisaz) or can't be suspended as of 15/12 as they raced at either Pokljuka or Obertilliach since (eg Eckhoff, Rastorgujevs). Of athletes whose absences were seemingly not planned and who did not race at Pokljuka or Obertilliach, Bjørndalen is by FAR the biggest name. The wink emoticon in the post I was referring to seemed to suggest this was the conclusion we were supposed to draw.

What about Milanko Petrovic? What happened to him? He was one of the dodgiest athletes that I saw in the last few years.

 

[the sceptic]

man xc skiing is so boring now. Even the russians have become scared to dope.

 

[TomasC]

Good statistics for the recent discussion between LS and Kokoso which I feel ended somewhat prematurely and maybe can continue with new information.

Veronika Vitkova improved her speed by 2,6% relatively to the median of the skiers, Tiril Eckhoff by 2,5%. Very similar progress. From the big names, Dorothea Wierer is the biggest improver (-3,1%).

 

[BullsFan22]

What about Milanko Petrovic? What happened to him? He was one of the dodgiest athletes that I saw in the last few years.

First, he retired because he felt he wasn't getting enough support from the Serbian ski federation and Serbian olympic committee. Not sure why they wouldn't support the country's best skier/biathlete, but that's their loss. Why was he dodgy, though? Sure, won a couple races at the Universiade last year and had respectable biathlon results at a number of WC races. Raced ok in Sochi in XC, but nothing that stood out to me. He also skis well technically, certainly impressive when you consider he doesn't have 'real' coaching in Serbia.

 

[Kokoso]

I was referring specifically to Martin Koukal's surprising win in 50 km in Val di Fiemme 2003. I agree that it's near impossible today but mainly because the mass start. With interval start, anything could happen in 50 km - usually there's nobody to help when you have a crisis, you have to care for your tempo yourself etc.

Yeah and why do you think I was talking about year 2003 being different times... Because it was clear to me what you are reffering too.