Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Most funky stuff of biathlon world champs? Unequivocally that Anais Bescond. Are you kidding me? Since is this girl runnig so fast? Since never is the answer, just now.
And Norwegian women, well...right time ressurection, but in their case it's understandable.
Edit: but Olsbu...too funny, or sad? One heck of improvement during of ski times and overally during season. If she was Russin or Ukrainian...

Yeah, Olsbu is definitely suspicious to me. Consistently skiing amongst the best. The only person I am not that worried is Solemdal. She is a strange case. She was billed as the next great Norwegian star 4-6 years ago. Her best season was 2012/2013, when she won her first individual races. She kind of slowly disappeared. Her ski speed is strikingly different to where she was at her best. Even with good shooting she hasn't threatened for the podium in the last couple years. Strange.

You mention Bescond. I kind of want to lump the French with the Austrians. It's not just Fourcade now, it's most of the team skiing above their abilities, or at least what they showed earlier this season. They either all ski (apart from Fourcade) well or all ski bad.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Eckhoff's been 3rd best skier of the season. I can buy her form here, because she's been fast all season but bad shooting has meant she's often been well down the field so it's not been relevant, a bit like Julian Eberhard or Benedikt Doll. By contrast, Olsbu's been the 21st best up to Oslo and here in the World Championships she's been up there with the very best and is holding off Marie Dorin Habert, who has been one of the top 3 skiers all season, with very little time lost at all. When I was pointing out those junior results when Dahlmeier was mixing it with 2nd year juniors whilst a 1st year youth, showing she had the talent, I noticed Olsbu down in 27th and 37th in those races.

Solemdal is a very strange case. In 2010-11 she was reasonable, but she finished the last race of the season a couple of mins down with 1+1. At the first sprint race of 2011-12, she shot the same record and was just off the podium, and set a faster ski time than Magdalena Neuner. However, she has had a serious of health issues that began with a case of mono late on in 2012-13 and so knowing when she's been truly 100% healthy since then is difficult. She even turned up to a World Cup last year and was refused the start because she'd not performed well enough in the previous trimester to qualify, so had to be sent to the IBU Cup to pick up some points and be allowed back on the World Cup. Both her rise and her fall were sudden and severe enough to raise eyebrows, but she has had legit long-term health problems as well.

 

[Cloxxki]

On a lighter note, Eckhoff's clearly been shoot-doping. Whatever she has now, it needs to be replenished for every race. How can a biathlete under so much pressure just start hitting targets? Her being quick on skis in itself is not suspicious, she's the fastest Norwegian.

Early this season it was already clear it was another where the Austrian men would be quick, without exceptions. This year some of the women seem to have hooked their fate to the men's. Making it look easy the first 2 legs of the relay.

It's curious that Neuner hit the world cup around 17 or 18 with superb ski speed, which she consistently displayed until odd early retirement. And Dahlmeier just grows into top speed after 20. How does that work, physilogically? Didn't she really commit as a junior? Or Olsbu for that matter? Easy to think something of it, but she seemed somewhat tame in her celebrations. I would go nuts in her boots. If anyone will ever see me dance and cry, it would be there and then. Had I just sold my sole before the worlds, I would be putting on a show of satisfaction on such an unexpected win.
Perhaps Dahlmeier really is illness/fatigue prone. She did a race less than Dorin-Habert who still doesn't sleep full night (but started skiing fast quite recently, mommy hormones?) but Dahlmeier already was clearly off her peak again. Or, does her form come from a bag which wears of in a week? She can still work up a good blush, though.

 

[ppanther92]

The Austrian Argument doesnt makes that much sense however. Landertinger/Grossegger/Mesotitsch/Pinter/Komatz are one group trained by Gössweiner, whereas Eder/Eberhard/Eberhard/Domracheva are trained by Simon Eders father. They don't train with each other and also have quite a rivalry between them two groups. Generally i think the whole Austrian myth has its origins in a superb Landertinger early on in his career combined with an also reasonable fast Sumann, who most oft the times faded badly in the last lap. I agree however, for tem either both were very fast or both a bit subpar was true whatever the reasons were.

Landertinger always was a superb athlete. In fact Landertingers career stagnated pretty bad if you ask me. He dominated bis youth years (for example a certain Mr. Fourcade) and did well in World Cup from start. Björndalen praised him as his successor and what did he win? *** two races, not what everybody was expecting. Fourcade told austrian tv after the Individual he waited for Landertinger to challenger him and fullfill them great things he was supposed to do.

 

[ppanther92]

Re:

Early this season it was already clear it was another where the Austrian men would be quick, without exceptions. This year some of the women seem to have hooked their fate to the men's. Making it look easy the first 2 legs of the relay.

Did you watch the race? Not saying they are clean or something linke that, as i learned better to trust nobody in world class sports, but they were incredible slow. (just like always) exception was Hauser, but that should be no suprise. Zdouc lost almost 2 minutes on the fastest skiing time. (i think Soukalova)

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

You mention Bescond. I kind of want to lump the French with the Austrians. It's not just Fourcade now, it's most of the team skiing above their abilities, or at least what they showed earlier this season. They either all ski (apart from Fourcade) well or all ski bad.

Kind of agree about French, I've even said that previously on 9th March in this thread, only I am not sure if most of theml are skiing above their abilities, I don't know them so well to judge that - most of them apear skiing within their abilities to me, except for Bescond, who clearly and totally sticks out, and M. Fourcade.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

The Austrian Argument doesnt makes that much sense however. Landertinger/Grossegger/Mesotitsch/Pinter/Komatz are one group trained by Gössweiner, whereas Eder/Eberhard/Eberhard/Domracheva are trained by Simon Eders father. They don't train with each other and also have quite a rivalry between them two groups. Generally i think the whole Austrian myth has its origins in a superb Landertinger early on in his career combined with an also reasonable fast Sumann, who most oft the times faded badly in the last lap. I agree however, for tem either both were very fast or both a bit subpar was true whatever the reasons were.

Landertinger always was a superb athlete. In fact Landertingers career stagnated pretty bad if you ask me. He dominated bis youth years (for example a certain Mr. Fourcade) and did well in World Cup from start. Björndalen praised him as his successor and what did he win? **** two races, not what everybody was expecting. Fourcade told austrian tv after the Individual he waited for Landertinger to challenger him and fullfill them great things he was supposed to do.

So my observation about Eder differing from rest of Austrains was right, I'm pleased Anyway that doesn't make that argument to lose sense.

 

[python]

i have got a feeling that the arrogance and immodesty with which sundby talks about his own results, never mind the the aloofness, if not being/looking imperious, reminds me of the manners of one cycling grand doper, martin is well known to worship

the guy says he was sick during the 2 quebec races. OOOKKK...most people who got sick or sickish 1st went to the bottom of the roster and then soon packed for home. this guy not only recovered miraculously but went on to his almost unprecedented, season-long dominance.

but apparently, if he could not dominate with the margin he desired, it was someone's fault...like the organizers in the classic mass start or like yesterday he blamed his skis. never mind, his team's chief coach rejected the blame.

when will this arrogant goon be caught ?

 

[Rider]

Re:

when will this arrogant goon be caught ?

With Ulvang and all the money Norway brings to the sport? Never.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

i have got a feeling that the arrogance and immodesty with which sundby talks about his own results, never mind the the aloofness, if not being/looking imperious, reminds me of the manners of one cycling grand doper, martin is well known to worship

the guy says he was sick during the 2 quebec races. OOOKKK...most people who got sick or sickish 1st went to the bottom of the roster and then soon packed for home. this guy not only recovered miraculously but went on to his almost unprecedented, season-long dominance.

but apparently, if he could not dominate with the margin he desired, it was someone's fault...like the organizers in the classic mass start or like yesterday he blamed his skis. never mind, his team's chief coach rejected the blame.

when will this arrogant goon be caught ?

Top skiers like Legkov and Nilsson went home right after they got sick. I am not sure how much they second guessed themselves, but at the end of the season, halfway through the Canada Tour they thought it was bad enough to leave, so they left. It must have been concerning to them if they left. Sundby is sick, but continues to carry the form from middle of November. Apparently the warm weather that affected his asthma in Oberstdorf in the tour de ski, didn't phase him at all in Canmore, at attitude, after a whole season in his lungs and legs. This guy really must be a demigod.

This is one of the reasons why I want Ustiugov to win today. The arrogance by some of the Norwegians is quite nauseating and repetitive.

 

[Cloxxki]

The Norwegian ladies are mixing it up in Canada now. Did the coaches invent a little game of chance to make the athletes seem more human? In stead of all getting their special little something, one or two simply don't (some placebos thrown in random brown breakfast bags?), and will seem genuinely off form. Or did Johaug just overdo it, and it's being made sure she can't quite win this one?
Sundby and Johaug showing signs of mortalism. If I were their evil overlord I'd make sure of it.

Oestberg seemed baffled at how well it went for her. "Did I get a double dose and Johaug none?" wouldn't look much different ;-)

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

The Norwegian ladies are mixing it up in Canada now. Did the coaches invent a little game of chance to make the athletes seem more human? In stead of all getting their special little something, one or two simply don't (some placebos thrown in random brown breakfast bags?), and will seem genuinely off form. Or did Johaug just overdo it, and it's being made sure she can't quite win this one?
Sundby and Johaug showing signs of mortalism. If I were their evil overlord I'd make sure of it.

Oestberg seemed baffled at how well it went for her. "Did I get a double dose and Johaug none?" wouldn't look much different ;-)

Oestberg really was revitalized in Canmore, at altitude, no less. She's had the season of her life, as far as the overall wc and total points from all the races are concerned. She was always a good distance skier as a junior and u23, but now is translating more of that in the seniors.
Weng had bad luck. Her skis were awful yesterday. It's a shame the tour ended the way it did. She couldn't do anything when Johaug went. Of course Johaug is the best climber and those soft conditions and tough course played to her advantage. Not that Weng is big, heavy athlete, but nobody matches Johaug like that. Perhaps Bjoergen and Kowalczyk at their best, but they would find it difficult as well. I feel sorry for Weng. She's done just about everything right this tour, but like Ustiugov, couldn't match the machine.

It's amazing the difference between the top few skiers and everyone else. Then there is a gap between the top 2 or 3 that stay with Johaug in some races: (Weng, Oestberg, Jacobsen, sometimes Diggins) and then there is Johaug.

The way Sundby has skied the past two or three years has given us a taste of what can happen in the men's races by Johaug-like domination. Him dominating like he has on the World Cup, winning races every month, winning 8 straight tours dating back to Kuusamo December 2013, really is more of a surprise than Johaug domination. What will be interesting the next two or three seasons (provided Sundby stays in the sport until at least 2019, i think he will) will be what he'll do at the world's and olympics. If he's learned anything from Sochi, Falun and even Val Di Fiemme, it is to prioritize for the big events, rather than going for the overall wc and tour titles.

 

[BullsFan22]

Just wondering, what all of you think, who was the most suspicious biathlete at Oslo? Which performance(s) made you say, 'wow, what's going on here?'

The Russians left Oslo without a single medal. That's pretty remarkable, if you ask me, doping or not. The men just were a shot or two away from getting a couple medals, as I don't think their shape was too bad, not as good as they were in January, but certainly, they were still good enough to take some medals in Oslo. Fourcade is Fourcade, but I think most thought Shipulin and Garanichev would grab some hardware. Shipulin was to ten in the pursuit (his best race, coming from 45th all the way to 5th was top 10 in the mass start today, and top 15 in the individual, while anchoring the Russians to the two relay events. Garanichev was 6th in the sprint, top 10 in the pursuit and I believe individual, with the worst individual race coming today for him. Remember, he had a penalty in the relay yesterday which effectively ended Russia's hopes for the medals. Malyshko has been mostly nonexistent this year, so him being back and hardly racing in Oslo was no surprise, while Babikov was ok today and I think they'll look more towards younger skiers like Babikov, Eliseev and a bunch of others coming up. There's no shortage of biathlon or cross country skiing talent in that country, so I am sure they'll find more medal contenders.

I will say, that there is a chance, given the lack of medals, that this is the Russians racing clean. Of course, you don't have to win races or medals to be a doper, but who knows about the Russians now. Perhaps they are clean and they just didn't have the luck.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Marte Olsbu, no doubt about it. That's the one I'm struggling to understand. MDH has been one of the best skiers all season, and so has Eckhoff, but they both had races where the shooting went right. Fine. Olsbu has never been as quick as this and has seldom been close, neither as a junior nor previously on the World Cup, but she's stepped up her game phenomenally here. Anybody can have a super day where they over-achieve; they're feeling good, they have great skis, they hit targets and their confidence rockets... but Olsbu did that in all of the races, although her results were tempered by her shooting worse than she normally does. Is that just work on the ski speed having consequences, because of lopsided preparation? Or is there more at play?

 

[Kokoso]

Just wondering, what all of you think, who was the most suspicious biathlete at Oslo? Which performance(s) made you say, 'wow, what's going on here?'

The Russians left Oslo without a single medal. That's pretty remarkable, if you ask me, doping or not. The men just were a shot or two away from getting a couple medals, as I don't think their shape was too bad, not as good as they were in January, but certainly, they were still good enough to take some medals in Oslo. Fourcade is Fourcade, but I think most thought Shipulin and Garanichev would grab some hardware. Shipulin was to ten in the pursuit (his best race, coming from 45th all the way to 5th was top 10 in the mass start today, and top 15 in the individual, while anchoring the Russians to the two relay events. Garanichev was 6th in the sprint, top 10 in the pursuit and I believe individual, with the worst individual race coming today for him. Remember, he had a penalty in the relay yesterday which effectively ended Russia's hopes for the medals. Malyshko has been mostly nonexistent this year, so him being back and hardly racing in Oslo was no surprise, while Babikov was ok today and I think they'll look more towards younger skiers like Babikov, Eliseev and a bunch of others coming up. There's no shortage of biathlon or cross country skiing talent in that country, so I am sure they'll find more medal contenders.

I will say, that there is a chance, given the lack of medals, that this is the Russians racing clean. Of course, you don't have to win races or medals to be a doper, but who knows about the Russians now. Perhaps they are clean and they just didn't have the luck.

Anais Bescond, Marthe Olsbu and Birkeladn I think too, Jakov Fak (all season)? M. Fourcade. OEB, as usual.

 

[antonshipulin]

OEB was ridiculous on the final lap today behind the pair fighting for gold

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

Marte Olsbu, no doubt about it. That's the one I'm struggling to understand. MDH has been one of the best skiers all season, and so has Eckhoff, but they both had races where the shooting went right. Fine. Olsbu has never been as quick as this and has seldom been close, neither as a junior nor previously on the World Cup, but she's stepped up her game phenomenally here. Anybody can have a super day where they over-achieve; they're feeling good, they have great skis, they hit targets and their confidence rockets... but Olsbu did that in all of the races, although her results were tempered by her shooting worse than she normally does. Is that just work on the ski speed having consequences, because of lopsided preparation? Or is there more at play?

What about Bescond? Nothing?

 

[kingjr]

If you wanted to mention Bescond, you should have done so 2 years ago, when she won in Antholz with 2nd best skiing time, 9 Seconds behind Domracheva. Now it's not really interesting anymore.

 

[kingjr]

Re:

OEB was ridiculous on the final lap today behind the pair fighting for gold

Yes, 11th fastest time on the last lap. Staggering.

 

[kosmonaut]

Re:

OEB was ridiculous on the final lap today behind the pair fighting for gold

He had ridiculous skis and shot 20. Not saying that he isn't the most dodgy character in biathlon, though.

Regarding Olsbu's transformation, the credit is given to Steinar Mundal, that some of you might recognize as the technique coach of the XC team through many years. Peak is a bit too sudden for my taste. http://www.langrenn.com/takker-steinar-mundal-han-har-en-stor-del-av-abren.5853235-365659.html

Last stage in Canada was nothing but a huge disappointment.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

If you wanted to mention Bescond, you should have done so 2 years ago, when she won in Antholz with 2nd best skiing time, 9 Seconds behind Domracheva. Now it's not really interesting anymore.

I certainly did back then

 

[Cloxxki]

Agree that Weng had bad luck with her skis the last stage. She deserved better.
What happened to Jacobsen? Asthma? I hate when that happens. I am a genuine sufferer. It can subside after some coughing or gearing down.

Most obvious is OEB. Russians seemed clean, although Garanichev may have been the last to refill.
JT Boe is super strong. Makes Fourcade look out off shape. JT Boe being so young, he may actually be a gene doping candidate. Like Obelix, no more magic juice for him. Olsbu doesn't make sense. And I still don't know why Dorin Habert is becoming dominant relatively late in her career. Neuner and Boe just show their cards early on. Dahlmeier has progressed A LOT since joining the WC, but at least she shows sub par form at a world championship. Semenov also faded badly.
The worlds taking so long that like the TdF frequent blood testing would be well worth it.
Svendsen still seems below his younger self. Reeks of targeted testing. Earlier he seemed to compete without his heart in it, like it didn't make sence.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

i have got a feeling that the arrogance and immodesty with which sundby talks about his own results, never mind the the aloofness, if not being/looking imperious, reminds me of the manners of one cycling grand doper, martin is well known to worship

the guy says he was sick during the 2 quebec races. OOOKKK...most people who got sick or sickish 1st went to the bottom of the roster and then soon packed for home. this guy not only recovered miraculously but went on to his almost unprecedented, season-long dominance.

but apparently, if he could not dominate with the margin he desired, it was someone's fault...like the organizers in the classic mass start or like yesterday he blamed his skis. never mind, his team's chief coach rejected the blame.

when will this arrogant goon be caught ?

Did you read one his post-Ski Tour Canada interviews? He said that Ustiugov basically defeated himself, partly due to "Russian self-confidence."

Take a good look people, this is cross country skiing's man of the moment. The new boss.

https://vk.com/legkov_alexandr?z=photo-24340398_407279124%2Falbum-24340398_00%2Frev

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Did any of you hear Sundby's claims about his lung capacity ? He claims that he has only 80% of an average untrained males ability to take up oxygen through the lungs..... http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/martin-johnsrud-sundby/sundby-om-astma-problemene-markant-handikap/a/23600686/
And that's when he has not got asthma-problems...

 

[Cloxxki]

Re:

Did any of you hear Sundby's claims about his lung capacity ? He claims that he has only 80% of an average untrained males ability to take up oxygen through the lungs..... http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/martin-johnsrud-sundby/sundby-om-astma-problemene-markant-handikap/a/23600686/
And that's when he has not got asthma-problems...

Well I used to pump 506W (over twice typical?) in the off-season (before I developed exersize enduced astma) but when asthma kicks in that drops to 120-150W. Along with black snow.
200ug of Salbutamol tends to do the trick if taken before. That or an hour of near-time trial and lots of forced coughing to clear it up. After that no 506W anymore, of course, just near normal LT.

Is Sundby talking about lung capacity in liters? VO2max?
Because what he does a sub-mediocre male cannot be trained to acccomplish. Even with an orally taken nuke it would be unlikely.
Who can make sense of that statement?