Doping in XC skiing

[May0maniac]

Yes, sorry, I just had a brain fart.

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

Look, r-tards. She didn't stop using the cream 12 days before the positive test. That's when she started using it. At least get your facts straight before poking holes in her story.

In other news, Johan Olsson is convinced that Therese is innocent. Aint that a glowing endorsement?

Don't know if you have other information, but this is from vg.no: Fredag 16. september, 12 dager etter at Johaug brukte kremen, ble det tatt en urinprøve av Johaug.

The official story:

«I Livigno tok landslagslege Fredrik S. Bendiksen ut to kremer for sårbehandling på et italiensk apotek. En av de to kremene var av typen Trofodermin. Denne kremen ga Bendiksen til Johaug om kvelden den 4. september 2016. Hun sjekket da med legen som forsikret henne om at kremen var tillatt å bruke, og ikke inneholdt noen stoffer som står på forbudslisten. Legen har altså ikke oppfattet at kremen inneholder clostebol, som står på WADAs forbudsliste. Kremen ble brukt som anvist av legen mellom 4. og 15. september 2016.»

 

[BullsFan22]

They (NSF, FIS, Olympiatoppen and perhaps even WADA) will clear Johaug of any wrongdoing. "Allegedly," the reason Sundby's case dragged on for so long was because of Sundby himself. The NSF advised him to go public with the positive test(s) but he chose not to. They went ahead as quickly as possible with Johaug. They probably didn't need to draw up a complicated story. Just say it was the doctor's mistake and that it was lip balm. No harm done. Nothing to see here.

I have to also agree with those of you here suggesting the fake crying and general reactions from Johaug. I am no detective or psychologist, but that did seem strange.

 

[tretiak]

Re: Re:

In other news, Johan Olsson is convinced that Therese is innocent. Aint that a glowing endorsement?

The official story:

«I Livigno tok landslagslege Fredrik S. Bendiksen ut to kremer for sårbehandling på et italiensk apotek. En av de to kremene var av typen Trofodermin. Denne kremen ga Bendiksen til Johaug om kvelden den 4. september 2016. Hun sjekket da med legen som forsikret henne om at kremen var tillatt å bruke, og ikke inneholdt noen stoffer som står på forbudslisten. Legen har altså ikke oppfattet at kremen inneholder clostebol, som står på WADAs forbudsliste. Kremen ble brukt som anvist av legen mellom 4. og 15. september 2016.»

Johan Olsson statement denies the athlete's own control responsibilities and that's sad (blame the doctors). Google it or read the package. It's not that they are training 24/7 and dont have access to the Internet.

The dates is correct.

I'm afraid the suspension will be very low or none (special treatment).

The funny thing is that Fredrik S. Bendiksen went to Johaug the same night the result was known to them, 4 October. And they have been in contact since.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Someone hug libertine!


So no more gewissesque results from now on?

Hey, now there's potentially one less obstruction to the much-hoped-for Heidi Weng calendar domination. Therese has been the biggest problem for Heidi because she's too good to get put into the B-team when the big stars rest, she's not a strong enough athlete in the sprint events, and her speciality is in the distance races where since Bjørgen took her baby break, Therese has just skied away from everybody from the start.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Someone hug libertine!


So no more gewissesque results from now on?

Hey, now there's potentially one less obstruction to the much-hoped-for Heidi Weng calendar domination. Therese has been the biggest problem for Heidi because she's too good to get put into the B-team when the big stars rest, she's not a strong enough athlete in the sprint events, and her speciality is in the distance races where since Bjørgen took her baby break, Therese has just skied away from everybody from the start.

I don't understand your point about Weng and the B-team. Even if Bjoergen and Johaug are there, dominating, and even if she isn't the greatest sprinter, she's comfortably in the A-Team. It would take quite a loss in form for her to lose her place on the A-Team. She was clearly the 2nd best distance skier last season, even if she was outdone by Oestberg in a couple races and the odd surprise like Diggins. She hasn't won a sprint race, yet, but she often makes it past the quarters and gives herself the chance, particularly in tougher sprint courses that favor all rounders rather than pure sprinters, plus the further you go in a sprint, the more it will favor those with more endurance. The races she was able to win last year were in the TDS when she used her strong sprint at the end of a distance race to good effect and also in the tour of Canada, where she won in similar style, this time against Johaug. Ok, Johaug is not as good as Weng in sprints (mostly due to her technique, not necessarily the frequency), but she still had to hang on to Johaug when nobody else could.

Maybe you were being a bit sarcastic. I don't know.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I was saying that the fact she was too good for the B-team was an obstruction to Heidi getting wins when she was growing increasingly desperate in the search for that first one over the last couple of seasons. There were a few races like Rybinsk and Otepää where the Norwegians clearly sent B-line ups to let the stars rest (often after a major target like the TdS or the Holmenkollen events), and there were races there being won by the likes of Tchekaleva in distance races; if the Norwegians had sent Heidi to those races I have a hard time believing she couldn't have won some, whereas because she was clearly part of the A-team, she was always racing against Bjørgen and Johaug who would beat her. Therefore many skiers who are not as strong as Heidi had career wins while she had over 30 podiums before she finally managed to cross the line first.

 

[Hakkapelit]

A note on the warning sign, the official story is that she took the smaller pack, every photo I've seen hitherto with the sign has been with the bigger pack.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

I was saying that the fact she was too good for the B-team was an obstruction to Heidi getting wins when she was growing increasingly desperate in the search for that first one over the last couple of seasons. There were a few races like Rybinsk and Otepää where the Norwegians clearly sent B-line ups to let the stars rest (often after a major target like the TdS or the Holmenkollen events), and there were races there being won by the likes of Tchekaleva in distance races; if the Norwegians had sent Heidi to those races I have a hard time believing she couldn't have won some, whereas because she was clearly part of the A-team, she was always racing against Bjørgen and Johaug who would beat her. Therefore many skiers who are not as strong as Heidi had career wins while she had over 30 podiums before she finally managed to cross the line first.

Thanks for the reply. I agree. They did send Jacobsen to Rybinsk in 2015, and she won the 10km, but finished 2nd to Tchekaleva in the 15 skiathlon, Though it was really only Jacobsen there from the top Norwegians, or even the top medal contenders in Falun. Tchekaleva was part of the next set of medal hopefuls after the Norwegians, Kalla and Kowalczyk. But to the point, yes, it's always a bummer for someone that is as consistent as Weng, not to have more wins, but going against Bjoergen and Johaug on a weekly basis is not easy. In fact, I'll go a step further and say that Weng now knows how Johaug felt when she was constantly beaten by either Bjoergen and Kowalcyk (when Kowalczyk was in top form 2008-2014). She really upped her career tally last season with hardly any resistance apart from Weng and a couple good races from Oestberg and Diggins at the TDS.

So yeah, if Johaug is suspended this season (highly unlikely, in my opinion), then Weng is the favorite for the overall, but since she'll also be thinking about individual titles at Lahti, she'll probably plan around that, and she'll obviously have to deal with Bjoergen, but knowing Bjoergen's history since 2009, she'll probably skip a good amount of races to focus on Lahti as well. In that case, it could be an 'outsider' that wins the overall.

 

[Lyon]

Of course, the big story here isn't about the individual athlete but the whole system he/she is part of. I believe we are close to the point where some Norwegian journalist (and it has to be a Norwegian for it to count in Norway) will be able and willing to dig up some of the skeletons from the past. Maybe even from before the Dæhlie/Ulvang period.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Of course, the big story here isn't about the individual athlete but the whole system he/she is part of. I believe we are close to the point where some Norwegian journalist (and it has to be a Norwegian for it to count in Norway) will be able and willing to dig up some of the skeletons from the past. Maybe even from before the Dæhlie/Ulvang period.

SVT sort of kind of was creeping towards that realm, but didn't want to go all in. Granted it was the Swedes, who the Norwegians will always lambast and saying they are 'jealous.' I am not really familiar with Norwegian journalists or investigative journalists, but surely there some out there that would be up for this!

 

[BullsFan22]

FIS Statement. Well...it's actually the official NSF statement but on the FIS website.

http://www.fis-ski.com/cross-country/news-multimedia/news/article=therese-johaug-tested-positive-after-usage-cream-heal-sunburned-lip.html

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

I fail to see how TJ could possibly dodge a suspension. Her story is that she took a medication containing a prohibited substance. It wasn't contaminated with something illegal, the PED is explicitly listed on the package and the tube itself. What's her excuse? She didn't know Clostebol is on the banned list? That's not gonna fly.

 

[meat puppet]

In the Finnish media, a lot of schadenfraude type noise has been put out but somewhat little substance - ie questions such as will Johaug actually be suspended, investigated and finally banned. The possibility of institutional shenanigans is not pursued properly.

To their credit, some articles take a wider view and mention the (possibility of) systemic problems in Norwegian skiing and in skiing in general. Yet the framing nevertheless is that of "getting even" from the Lahti fiasco, so a nationalist motive is clear. This angle very much bugs me. As though everything was fine if the Finns were dominating or were not done in 2001 in the first place.

Notable apologists thus far: Jarmo Punkkinen says johaug story is entirely legit. He is not stupid, so why? Well, perhaps the lipcream story is a common one amongst skiers using this stuff. Put it this way: if I were Kaisa mäkäräinen, I would not want my coach say this.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

A note on the warning sign, the official story is that she took the smaller pack, every photo I've seen hitherto with the sign has been with the bigger pack.

Well, it don't make Johaugs case better since the smaller pack clearly is marked doping on the tube. On the pressconference they of course did show the reverse side.

 

[bastigon]

Hi guys!

Do you think we will see a receipt or a credit card transaction from the buying of the cream? I mean the doctor hardly uses his own cash to buy something. And if he did he surely would have kept the receipts. Would be nice to see that if they want to be believed.

 

[Walkman]

Re:

Hi guys!

Do you think we will see a receipt or a credit card transaction from the buying of the cream? I mean the doctor hardly uses his own cash to buy something. And if he did he surely would have kept the receipts. Would be nice to see that if they want to be believed.

Contador tactics?

"Guys, the receipts for the steak I bought is really important, can't we all just focus on that instead of me doping?!"

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

Look, r-tards. She didn't stop using the cream 12 days before the positive test. That's when she started using it. At least get your facts straight before poking holes in her story.

In other news, Johan Olsson is convinced that Therese is innocent. Aint that a glowing endorsement?

Convinced?!

From what I read, he said something along the lines:

"I don't want to get in deeper on the subject more than that I at this moment think she has fallen victim to a mistake".

What is he supposed to say? That he always knew and isn't surprised at all?

I myself, am not convinced that this is a smoking gun. Mistakes do happen.

 

[bastigon]

Re: Re:

Hi guys!

Do you think we will see a receipt or a credit card transaction from the buying of the cream? I mean the doctor hardly uses his own cash to buy something. And if he did he surely would have kept the receipts. Would be nice to see that if they want to be believed.

Contador tactics?

"Guys, the receipts for the steak I bought is really important, can't we all just focus on that instead of me doping?!"

Well, I don't care about tactics. I would just like them to strengthen their story if they can and show the receipts. Also the pharmacy could help with this. My point is that no receipts/unability to prove they bought the cream is a weakness for the defense.

 

[python]

^regarding the receipt availability...an important piece of evidence if and when at a disciplinary hearing. but for now it is a moot point b/c virtually everyone in norway believes the cream story. i think they can produce the receipt b/c the head of anti-doping norway indirectly hinted at that...

just finished perusing the nrk sport stories...little new, expect (15min ago) it is clear that johoug is refusing to accept a provisional suspension NOW. an option that could potentially benefit her if she is found guilty later b/c the time could be subtracted from her disciplinary suspension.

...i am trying to collect whatever the objective bits and facts i can in order to form my own opinion. while on that, some of my own questions from an earlier post got answered. specifically, it was the anti-doping norge that ordered the test and it was the norwegian wada lab that found the doping agent.

another important official bit is that she was using the cream until one day BEFORE she gave the sample (stopped on 15 sept, sampled 16 sept). whether it was indeed so, has to be proven, but it does jive perfectly with the official story.

another conclusion emerging is that the limitless norge xc ski budget payed for 2 incompetent doctors (decades with the national teams) who took all the blame.

was that due to (i) their incompetence or an (ii) arrogant assumption of the norwegian impunity or...a (iii) doctor mediated doping program with a failed cover up ?

i want to believ in (ii). just got a bit sloppy basking in their domination.

 

[Cloxxki]

How would anyone involved ever state that is was 12 days since administration? That's like signing for 2-4 years. Even if it was a lip cream I used and nothing else, would I not claim more recent use to support my defense? Must have been peculiar circumstances how the 12 days got logged beyond the point of being able to ignore it.

 

[python]

...wanted to add a couple more finding that seem to refute some misinformation i saw in some articles, forums and sites:

1. 'the drug detected in therese urine (clostebol acetate) is only available in italy and brazil and only in a cream form for treating skin ulcers '

incorrect. an quick search reveals a glutton of products with clostebol acetate that could either be injected or ingested.

2. ' it is a weak anabolic steroid'

well, i ignored the muscle forums were the phrase was borrowed from (for those dopeheads everything seems weak). yet, per the few academic sources, if compared to testosterone its anabolic effects yield btwn 1/3 and 1/2 of testo. i would not call this weak for an endurance athlete needing no bulk. in fact, it's one of the choicest illegal drugs in horse racing. if it's strong enough for horses, it's good enough for lil therese. plus, it makes perfect sense to dope b/c of short half-life compared to other testosterone esters.

 

[John de Savage]

Re:

...wanted to add a couple more finding that seem to refute some misinformation i saw in some articles, forums and sites:

1. 'the drug detected in therese urine (clostebol acetate) is only available in italy and brazil and only in a cream form for treating skin ulcers '

incorrect. an quick search reveals a glutton of products with clostebol acetate that could either be injected or ingested.

2. ' it is a weak anabolic steroid'

well, i ignored the muscle forums were the phrase was borrowed from (for those dopeheads everything seems weak). yet, per the few academic sources, if compared to testosterone its anabolic effects yield btwn 1/3 and 1/2 of testo. i would not call this weak for an endurance athlete needing no bulk. in fact, it's one of the choicest illegal drugs in horse racing. if it's strong enough for horses, it's good enough for lil therese. plus, it makes perfect sense to dope b/c of short half-life compared to other testosterone esters.

Why? Synthetic testosterone is supposed to be undetectable at low doses. Clostebol certainly isn't.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/04/news/agostini-gives-cycling-letter-doping-suspension_323757

 

[python]

Re: Re:

...wanted to add a couple more finding that seem to refute some misinformation i saw in some articles, forums and sites:

1. 'the drug detected in therese urine (clostebol acetate) is only available in italy and brazil and only in a cream form for treating skin ulcers '

incorrect. an quick search reveals a glutton of products with clostebol acetate that could either be injected or ingested.

2. ' it is a weak anabolic steroid'

well, i ignored the muscle forums were the phrase was borrowed from (for those dopeheads everything seems weak). yet, per the few academic sources, if compared to testosterone its anabolic effects yield btwn 1/3 and 1/2 of testo. i would not call this weak for an endurance athlete needing no bulk. in fact, it's one of the choicest illegal drugs in horse racing. if it's strong enough for horses, it's good enough for lil therese. plus, it makes perfect sense to dope b/c of short half-life compared to other testosterone esters.

Why? Synthetic testosterone is supposed to be undetectable at low doses. Clostebol certainly isn't.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/04/news/agostini-gives-cycling-letter-doping-suspension_323757

traveling...will be brief...exogenous testo is perfectly detactable for at least 2 decades. The method employed is called IRMS. check the widely AVAILABLE details of the floyd landis doping case. the short half life, say 8h, would help a doper to beat a screaning test if based on a wide spectrum (that is, a test not favouring a focus on a specific molecule per se). When a steroid screen is failed, they can use an irms and/or a test based on quatifying the 'offending' metabolite.

 

[BullsFan22]

I watched the press conference again and yeah....definitely fake emotions. You can see it clearly when she tries to take deep breaths, the 'face palms,' the 'crocodile tears...' and the most funny of them all, the fist near the end!