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Doping in XC skiing

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Sep 25, 2009
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http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/sundby-saken-har-kostet-skiforbundet-3-3-millioner-kroner-til-naa/a/23812797/

the sundby case cost the norge xc federation 3.3 mil norwegian kroner (ab. usd 400,000). of this amount, 1/3 went to paying the doper's prize money he was stripped of by cas. it's a hefty percent of the total xc budget (84 mil kroner).

'stupid, unthinkable...' said the heads of the norwegian cycling and athletics feds.

my comment:
what makes this expense and the whole affair unprecedented is NOT so much that a national fed throwing its full weight behind a single doper looks equivalent to a state-sponsored, state protected doping program...no, the most phenomenal thing - to me at least - was that this huge money was spent to conceal everything from the public. every state asset was used - several layers, a score of scientists, pr specialists, coordinated tactics etc.

we learned some by chance via the wada appeal. most is still hidden deep. like who and why acquitted sundby, whether there were brown envelops or other instruments of pressure and influence so that fis took a position 100% contrary to wada code.

to me it is unthinkable in a modern democratic society to be so secretive about a minor civil matter like a doping case :surprised:
 
Feb 15, 2015
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I somehow understand their tactics. If they hadn't backed him, they probably thought it could be difficult to renew or secure new sponsorship deals with him as the leader of the team. So they went all-in to own the narrative of this "honest mistake". And now it's backfiring in full force. Quite amusing.
 
Feb 15, 2015
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Heey, I'm Norwegian.

Also, this case has changed everything here. The credibility of NSF and Norwegian skiers is at an all time low. The people blindly defending them now seem to be the minority, while most people I meet actually seem to think that "we are no better than anyone else". It's not like everyone believes they are going full genius, but that they are happy to push boundaries and work the grey areas seems to be accepted. Will be very interesting to see how the national interest of the sport will develop this coming winter.
 
Re:

python said:
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/sundby-saken-har-kostet-skiforbundet-3-3-millioner-kroner-til-naa/a/23812797/

the sundby case cost the norge xc federation 3.3 mil norwegian kroner (ab. usd 400,000). of this amount, 1/3 went to paying the doper's prize money he was stripped of by cas. it's a hefty percent of the total xc budget (84 mil kroner).

'stupid, unthinkable...' said the heads of the norwegian cycling and athletics feds.

my comment:
what makes this expense and the whole affair unprecedented is NOT so much that a national fed throwing its full weight behind a single doper looks equivalent to a state-sponsored, state protected doping program...no, the most phenomenal thing - to me at least - was that this huge money was spent to conceal everything from the public. every state asset was used - several layers, a score of scientists, pr specialists, coordinated tactics etc.

we learned some by chance via the wada appeal. most is still hidden deep. like who and why acquitted sundby, whether there were brown envelops or other instruments of pressure and influence so that fis took a position 100% contrary to wada code.

to me it is unthinkable in a modern democratic society to be so secretive about a minor civil matter like a doping case :surprised:

Norway is one of the most open societies in the world, not the only open society, but I think most, if not all of us here can agree on that. The issue is that xc skiing is the numero uno sport in the country. It's a traditional sport, where almost everyone skis and where there are thousands of clubs and quite a few pro, neo-pro private teams, the national teams which can change roster from week to week, etc. The sport exports and imports a ton of equipment and thus a ton of money is to be had to and from Norway. When things like doping happen, however 'minor' in every day life, is fairly big in a sport as popular as xc skiing in Norway. You kind of answered your own curiosity with your post. The NSF and the Olympiatoppen have to keep things under wraps to keep the Skilandslaget as free of trouble as possible. If the most popular sport in the country gets outed and the people at the top found out for encouraging and administrating doping, it doesn't look too good in the public eye.

Maybe I am over-dramaticizing things, but I think that's true. The Norwegians needed a wake up call and while I think they got away with one with Sundby and FIS helping the cover up + the pathetic 2 month summer ban, they got a wake up call and people are finally realizing what's going on. I hope for much more to come out and more criticism, particularly because the Norwegians are the first to point fingers at others, while completely ignoring the possibilities on their own national team. I also hoped more would be said of Blodracet, but unfortunately little was said outside of Sweden.
 
Apr 7, 2015
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The Norwegian way isn't so much pretending that nothing is wrong (that is the Swedish way) as it is a reluctance (fanatical in some cases) to let outsiders point out that these wrongs exist. Every revelation have to come from within so it becomes very much about who says what. Of course, cross country skiing is a special case where things have become almost sect like.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Re:

kosmonaut said:
Heey, I'm Norwegian.

Also, this case has changed everything here. The credibility of NSF and Norwegian skiers is at an all time low. The people blindly defending them now seem to be the minority, while most people I meet actually seem to think that "we are no better than anyone else". It's not like everyone believes they are going full genius, but that they are happy to push boundaries and work the grey areas seems to be accepted. Will be very interesting to see how the national interest of the sport will develop this coming winter.
i always felt you're a norwegian. your balanced views, along with some other norwegian posters, like trond if memory serves, stood in sharp contrast with the simplified views of some fanboys...so, to lump all norwegians into a mold is incorrect, like it is improper to 'lyonize' all swedes into 'pretending that nothing is wrong'. the critical norwegian media attitude most of us here can read is a further proof of the changing times...note, most of the critical links in the thread are ..............norwegian !

i am going to differ with you as to why the nsf went bunkers protecting sundby.

it would seem logical to protect their private sponsorship kroner inflows by protecting the leader. that's a reasonable argument almost everywhere but norway. i somehow cant imagine a shortfall in funding the xc sport in norway. not to mention some other top stars who command the attention (from northug to johaug to bjoergen to a bunch of sprinters and many promising youngsters) ....here i will agree with lyon.

'things have become almost sect like'
 
Re:

kosmonaut said:
Heey, I'm Norwegian.

Also, this case has changed everything here. The credibility of NSF and Norwegian skiers is at an all time low. The people blindly defending them now seem to be the minority, while most people I meet actually seem to think that "we are no better than anyone else". It's not like everyone believes they are going full genius, but that they are happy to push boundaries and work the grey areas seems to be accepted. Will be very interesting to see how the national interest of the sport will develop this coming winter.
Sorry Kokoso and fellow Norwegians, my comment was much to generalizing. When I talked about Ostrich and sand, in my mind I was thinking of ToreBears posts and how the official XC-ski Norway have acted. I agree with both Python and BullFan22 that it's quite amazing to see what a game changer the last two months have been. All revelations and critical questions have been put forward by the Norwegian media. Such a difference compared to the weeks after Blodracet or even further back, after the episode of Rikets Tilstand in 2002.
 
Jan 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

Discgear said:
kosmonaut said:
Heey, I'm Norwegian.

Also, this case has changed everything here. The credibility of NSF and Norwegian skiers is at an all time low. The people blindly defending them now seem to be the minority, while most people I meet actually seem to think that "we are no better than anyone else". It's not like everyone believes they are going full genius, but that they are happy to push boundaries and work the grey areas seems to be accepted. Will be very interesting to see how the national interest of the sport will develop this coming winter.
Sorry Kokoso and fellow Norwegians, my comment was much to generalizing. When I talked about Ostrich and sand, in my mind I was thinking of ToreBears posts and how the official XC-ski Norway have acted. I agree with both Python and BullFan22 that it's quite amazing to see what a game changer the last two months have been. All revelations and critical questions have been put forward by the Norwegian media. Such a difference compared to the weeks after Blodracet or even further back, after the episode of Rikets Tilstand in 2002.

NRK has been somewhat more in the fanboy camp, although not entirely. They had a documentary series, Verdens beste skijenter (the world's best ski-girls) on a while ago. The description/blurb for it says "Norway has the world's best ski-girls and is the national team that everyone wants to copy". Wonder if they'll show it again any time soon? :rolleyes:

here i will agree with lyon.

'things have become almost sect like'

Thirded. It does have a sect like feel to it - don't question the dear leader(ship), it's not patriotic and you don't understand top level sport.
 
Re: Re:

python said:
kosmonaut said:
Heey, I'm Norwegian.

Also, this case has changed everything here. The credibility of NSF and Norwegian skiers is at an all time low. The people blindly defending them now seem to be the minority, while most people I meet actually seem to think that "we are no better than anyone else". It's not like everyone believes they are going full genius, but that they are happy to push boundaries and work the grey areas seems to be accepted. Will be very interesting to see how the national interest of the sport will develop this coming winter.
i always felt you're a norwegian. your balanced views, along with some other norwegian posters, like trond if memory serves, stood in sharp contrast with the simplified views of some fanboys...so, to lump all norwegians into a mold is incorrect, like it is improper to 'lyonize' all swedes into 'pretending that nothing is wrong'. the critical norwegian media attitude most of us here can read is a further proof of the changing times...note, most of the critical links in the thread are ..............norwegian !

i am going to differ with you as to why the nsf went bunkers protecting sundby.

it would seem logical to protect their private sponsorship kroner inflows by protecting the leader. that's a reasonable argument almost everywhere but norway. i somehow cant imagine a shortfall in funding the xc sport in norway. not to mention some other top stars who command the attention (from northug to johaug to bjoergen to a bunch of sprinters and many promising youngsters) ....here i will agree with lyon.

'things have become almost sect like'

I haven't been here much lately. What a shitstorm. Shady practices indeed. Insane amounts of medication. Saddest part is that kids with actual asthma are being bullied now.

Edit: out soccer team needs some asthma meds. We just lost to Azerbaijan!
 
Clearly the FIS and IOC mostly care about their own coffers, which is why they want to check WADA's power. Of course it should be the opposite.

The ironic thing is there is going to be no more Olympics and no more XC Skiing as we know it if: the FIS do not address the increasingly arbitrary classic skiing rules and the big elephant in the room: global warming and further marginalization of snow skiing; and the IOC does not address that most people are catching on that the Olympics basically bankrupts a city and sets it back for at least a decade. These problems are a bigger and more existential problem than doping for each.

So for their own selfish survival they better focus on cleaning up their own house and problems.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Clearly the FIS and IOC mostly care about their own coffers, which is why they want to check WADA's power. Of course it should be the opposite.
most if not every sports body care about it's coffers. wada is too. wada 'power' imo is very much needed but it gets a tad out of its original goal when it steps too much into the sports politics as it did during the recent olympics. while i have little doubt that the ioc and the fis (to a lesser degree) are corrupt, i believe strongly that keeping the wada away from big politics is going to lessen its chance of corrupting...

...the FIS do not address the increasingly arbitrary classic skiing rules and the big elephant in the room: global warming and further marginalization of snow skiing...
not sure this is correct. perhaps you did not stay abreast with the latest xc skiing news - and i am not saying the newest fis rules would be adequate - but they did try to adress both of your concerns. the classic poles will now be limited to 83% of a skier height. and the lowest permitted temperature for a competition is considered to be upped from the current (-20C) to (-12C). speaking from memory, so i may off by a degree or 2.
 
I agree WADA needs to focus on AD. What does iNADO do? It seems like there needs to a conduit that can recommend and/or enforce actions based on WADA findings while keeping WADA focused solely on testing and FIS, etc. focused only on developing their respective sports.

Definitely up to date on the new rules! I have a feeling it came across differently because we probably have different viewpoints, although maybe not. :) Personally, I think classic is nearly dead and all of the changing rules, etc just reflect that. With global warming increasing and the reliance on man-made snow, classic skiing already is a huge increase in money, time, and effort. Not only at the pro level but especially in getting juniors into the sport, especially in non-Scanadavian countries or countries with a weak ski culture (how will the sport survive if it keeps shrinking to a regional affair?). I could go on and on but that is what I meant by my second comment. Even if one disagrees with classic dying what will the sport be in 20 years, 50 years? These are questions FIS needs to be addressing or it will be the "International Roller Ski Federation" very soon!
 
Re:

python said:
Clearly the FIS and IOC mostly care about their own coffers, which is why they want to check WADA's power. Of course it should be the opposite.
most if not every sports body care about it's coffers. wada is too. wada 'power' imo is very much needed but it gets a tad out of its original goal when it steps too much into the sports politics as it did during the recent olympics. while i have little doubt that the ioc and the fis (to a lesser degree) are corrupt, i believe strongly that keeping the wada away from big politics is going to lessen its chance of corrupting...

...the FIS do not address the increasingly arbitrary classic skiing rules and the big elephant in the room: global warming and further marginalization of snow skiing...
not sure this is correct. perhaps you did not stay abreast with the latest xc skiing news - and i am not saying the newest fis rules would be adequate - but they did try to adress both of your concerns. the classic poles will now be limited to 83% of a skier height. and the lowest permitted temperature for a competition is considered to be upped from the current (-20C) to (-12C). speaking from memory, so i may off by a degree or 2.

Somehow I missed the last part of your comment, regarding temperature. Is THIS actual?? They are upping the legal limit to -12?? That is weak, to say the least!! I can understand a couple degrees, but 8 (!!!?!?). That is just an overreaction. -12 isn't 'warm' but it's hardly dangerous. I think to -18 isn't dangerous either for FIS sanctioned races. If they do that, then a few years down the road they'll change it to -10, and then -9, -8...Is this what this sport is becoming?? Granted I don't think they'll have too much of an issue with global warming, but even if it does get cold a couple WC weekends this coming season, I think that would actually be welcoming! Snow and cold!! Isn't that what we all want?? It's a winter/outdoor sport.
 
Apr 7, 2015
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Now this is something... The end of an era? I don't think the media will follow script anymore, though the Norwegian Skiing Federation is doing what they always do. Like Sky, they simply have no way of changing, even though the world around them does.
 
Holy smokes!

Are testers and labs starting to do their jobs? Did something change?

When Armstrong's butt cream came up positive no-one came out of their lounge chairs. Now now the Norwegians are cancelling all engagements over a lip balm? That's curious, after the USPS'esque arrogance portrayed earlier.

Any lab rats who might know more about this substance and what may be behind it?
 
A blast from the past?
So do you really get it from a lip cream, or does it take a roid artist to brew you up a batch?

The likes of Johaug could even market/amend a cream to get the substance in there.
Did anyone ever manage to sit on enough cream to get a positive like Armstrong?
 

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