Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Another non-approved yet still completed study with Kai-Håkon Carlsen as medical director.

NRK this time: https://www.nrk.no/sport/ny-avsloring_-eliteutovere-ble-medisinert-uten-godkjenning-1.13140639

Elite athletes, nebulizers, the works.

Scandalous. Not much credibility left, if any, concerning dr. Kai Håkon Carlsen.

And today XC officials from Finland, Russia says they take skiers with breathing problems out of competition instead of medicating them.https://www.nrk.no/sport/syke-utovere-far-startnekt-_-ikke-medisin-1.13137602
German spokesmen says: of course we only treat skiers with diagnosed asthma with asthma medication, otherwise it would be a health risk.

I wonder how the attitude against the Norwegian skiers will be this winter; from spectators, from sponsors and from other countries skiers.

You are really on top of this subject! Thanks for sharing!!

Unfortunately the Finns and Russians have had their own problems with taking banned substances, so while their way of dealing with asthma and only treating unhealthy skiers with meds (whatever those meds are) is good and it makes sense, I am not sure if they'll be taken as serious. They'll probably be looked at as hypocrites. I think what is more important is that the tune is changing from the spectators point of view. It may not be a massive change, yet, but it's starting to reverberate. People are at least talking about it and even the Norwegian public is now starting to question the NSF and everyone involved. I do believe that there is a decent sized number of Norwegians that would ask 'are there other meds the NSF is taking? What about the 90's and blood doping?' I've seen comments like that pop up at VG and social media outlets. People are waking up. And those that perhaps didn't want to say anything in the past, are coming out as well.

 

[olhell]

The heat is on. Here is a couple more astma-news from today:

TV2: – Bør revurdere holdningen om at astmamedisin ikke er prestasjonsfremmende
http://www.tv2.no/sport/8603496/

VG: Advarer mot «Sundby-apparatet»
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/advarer-mot-sundby-apparatet/a/23798564/

 

[python]

Re: Re:

some questions to those better informed:

1. who were the fis doping panel members that acquitted sundby ?
i seached the fis site and archives and except for the 2-page press release there's nothing. no pdf/text of the acquittal award nor the names of those who passed the desicion. i'd hope for those of us looking into the case closely, the fis would be more transparent...

2. does anyone have the complete list of the members on the fis doping panel ?
either my research skills are falling, or the fis prefers not to make them public ? i did find that the panel is headed bya certain mr patrick smith of canada. that's it. one can also find some names by reading the OLD AWARDS but there's no assurance these people are still active or valid.

Good questions, and I can't recall it has been mentioned in any media either. I only found the different committes under FIS-ski.com when I searched the site earlier this summer. In the document "FIS anti doping rules" following is stated about the FIS doping panel:

8.1.1
The FIS Council shall appoint a standing panel consisting of a Chair and
other experts with experience in antidoping ("FIS Doping Panel")
that serves as the responsible body to hear and adjudicate all violations of these Anti
Doing Rules, except where the Results Management is conducted by a
National Ski Association according to article 7.4
. The Chair shall be a lawyer.
Each panel member shall serve a term of two years.

The Canadian lawyer Patrick Smith seems to have been chairing the panel for quite some years. He was re-elected this summer. The only document I've found with names of the panel members was from 2011 in the Veerpalu case. http://blogs.fasterskier.com/worldcup/files/2011/09/Veerpalu-FIS-decision.pdf
Besides Smith also Norwegian Sverre Seeberg and Czech Roman Kumpost.

It seems FIS want's to keep the members of the panel out of publicity.

thanks. ! we pretty much came to the same dead end results the fis wanted us to end up in. but i will keep on looking. the understandable 'confidentiality' in the sundby case, as i have indicated earlier, needs to be cleared of any favoritism suspicions, which, as far as i can entertain now, would be too soon to drop given the nagging questions:

-why did a very sick athlete demonstrating the illness from his early age did not have a tue when the effort to get one was a 10-minute formality ?
-why was it not considered by the fis in its decision as negligence given there are strict and very specific rules on an athlete negligence
- why would fis and the norge fed NEVER consult wada regarding what they claimed was unclear in the wada rule on whether a nabulizer use required a tue ? (i recall the uci in the contador clen case was ALWAYS seeking for a wada guidance)...sounds like the norges and the fis assumed knowing more about the wada rules than wada...the wisdom of such an attitude is secondary imo to its arrogance. one of the links above clearly states that dr. bahr, a norwegian, has warned early enogh a nebilizer=tue. why to ignore a clear warning ?

i have had more questions...

 

[Blaaswix]

Norwegian alpine skier Henrik Kristoffersen apologizes for being a bit puzzled about the use of asthma meds in XC http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/beklager/63305895. The communications chief for the skiforbundet points out that it was never "....a point to criticize either the system or other athletes" . The system. Whichever language you read it in, that sounds, a bit...

 

[BullsFan22]

Norwegian alpine skier Henrik Kristoffersen apologizes for being a bit puzzled about the use of asthma meds in XC http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/beklager/63305895. The communications chief for the skiforbundet points out that it was never "....a point to criticize either the system or other athletes" . The system. Whichever language you read it in, that sounds, a bit...

It's a classic case of someone that spoke their mind, then were told not to...for obvious reasons. Hush-hush.

 

[Discgear]

Norwegian alpine skier Henrik Kristoffersen apologizes for being a bit puzzled about the use of asthma meds in XC http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/beklager/63305895. The communications chief for the skiforbundet points out that it was never "....a point to criticize either the system or other athletes" . The system. Whichever language you read it in, that sounds, a bit...

It's a classic case of someone that spoke their mind, then were told not to...for obvious reasons. Hush-hush.

Norwegian omerta. I wonder how hard Bagdad Bob went on poor Kristoffersen, a brilliant skier by the way. For all of you who read scandinavian: This is a superb summarize in the aftermaths of documentary Blodracet.
https://bjorkbloggen.com/tag/vegard-ulvang/

 

[Cloxxki]

Let's attend some races dressed as nebulizers, cheeering hardest for guess who. Handing out flyers to people with young kids about the risks of needless and overmedicating with such medicin, as well as some ethical thought experiments to try on themselves.

I'm dependent on Ventolin to perform in sports. It used to be only summers, now it seems to happen at unexpected moments all year around. 200ug of dry Salbutamol from a diskus tends to do the trick. When it was on The List is was acctually difficult for me to get a TUE. Those who went the Dutch Cycling Union's docs easily got it. I just quit racing in summers, or tried over the counter non-listed remedies with very limited results. Over-agitating the lungs for about an hour seemedto clear things up without meds, but the edge would be off my racing by then.

Sickens me that I'm on the same stuff as Sundby.

 

[python]

looks like wada is about to act in the wake of the sundby abuses...

after more than 7 years of relaxing the already abuse-prone rules on the atsthma meds, they are about to tighten by introducing imo one half of a half-step starting in 2017.

instead of of the allowed doze of 1600mg salbutamol in 24 hours - a doze currently not requiring a tue - the new regulation will require no more than 800mg in 12 hours. that's it. this means an athlete can still legally administer a banned substance without a medical need or a medical advice as long as he or she does it SLOWLY.

this is grossly inadequate. the cas report expressly pointed the area of the biggest abuse - the use of the nebulizers wada argued required a tue. they need to write this expressly and unambiguously in the regulations.

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/martin-johnsrud-sundby/wada-endrer-astmareglene/a/23800723/

 

[Cloxxki]

Well that's half-assed. I doubt many will require a TUE if they could get by on 1600mg before?
And for the anabolic effect, does it matter much whether you take 2x800 or 1x1600?

Surely after a doping test, they top up on anything they have in the house anyways?

 

[BullsFan22]

LOL!! Are these people for real?!?

https://www.nrk.no/sport/skiforbundet-vurderer-a-finansiere-epo-forskning-1.13143743


Shades of the Armstrong era where they are potentially covering up their behinds donating hundreds of thousands to 'finance research on EPO in anti doping effort.' Are you kidding me??

 

[Cloxxki]

Comedy gold!
How blatant can you get...

 

[Random Direction]

OMFG - so, just after the Norwegians managed to conduct a series of (mostly) non-authorized studies to determine impacts of asthma on skiers, and after a large number of their skiers were shown to be 'asthmatics' and therefore needing TUEs, they are trying to see what the impacts of EPO are on athletes. Sounds to me like either (i) complete stupidity at how much a laughing stock they are becoming; or (ii) a not so hidden attempt to determine optimum micro-dosing EPO programs for said skiers (and likely speed skaters too).

Why not just hire a bunch of cycling docs to tell them instead?

 

[Discgear]

LOL!! Are these people for real?!?

https://www.nrk.no/sport/skiforbundet-vurderer-a-finansiere-epo-forskning-1.13143743

Shades of the Armstrong era where they are potentially covering up their behinds donating hundreds of thousands to 'finance research on EPO in anti doping effort.' Are you kidding me??

Mind boggling. All those Norwegian dinousars from the 90s; Røste, Lereim, Carlsen, Ulvang, Andersen ....

And today newspaper Verdens Gang exposed another scandal. It turns out that the Norwegian minister of culture and sport initiated a Nordic call for strenghtening the Anti-doping work. Among the propositions in the call it was suggested that WADA should be given a go to punish national sports organisations when breaking the Anti-doping code. However, the Norwegian Sports Federation - Norges Idrettsforbund - needed time to think.

It turns out they (Norges Idrettsforbund) altered quite a few things - among them taking away the mentioned proposition above - and then send in a new proposal to the fellow Nordic Organisations without informing the sports minister. And also saying in the altered proposal - Well of course this would be stronger if we would get the minister and department onboard.

Stunning!
http://www.vg.no/sport/idrettspolitikk/beskylder-idrettspresidenten-for-aa-kuppe-ferskt-dopingopprop/a/23801745/

 

[Blaaswix]

Re:

Comedy gold!
How blatant can you get...

https://www.nrk.no/sport/kun-sundby-rammes-av-regelendring-1.13147277

Cloxxii, how does 600-800 micrograms salbutamol a day sound to you?

 

[Random Direction]

Re: Re:

Comedy gold!
How blatant can you get...

https://www.nrk.no/sport/kun-sundby-rammes-av-regelendring-1.13147277

Cloxxii, how does 600-800 micrograms salbutamol a day sound to you?

I'm not Cloxxii (are you trying to get him to spit up his coffee), however it does sound a tad high, around 50-60 times recommended daily dose high)...

http://salbutamol.org/dosage-of-salbutamol/
Usual starting dosage of salbutamol is 2mg or 4 mg 3 or 4 times a day. A dosage above 4 mg salbutamol 4 times a day should be used only when the patient fails to respond adequately. If a desirable response does not found with 4 mg salbutamol, it should be cautiously increased the dosage up to a maximum of 8 mg 4 times a day as tolerated.

On the Norwegian Minister of Sport issue, in my line of work if I were to every modify a statement that my Minister made and put him/her in a bad light, I would be looking for new work within the week. Expect a major re-organization in Norwegian sport shortly, likely along with a public investigation.

 

[Cloxxki]

Are we mixing up units? I use 200 MICROGRAMS (0.2mg?) and it usually takes me from incapable of a jog (without black snow) to feeling like the 85kg MTB climbing stud I once was, for at least 2 hours.
I'll admit that the effect seems better when taken preventively. That does complicate matters. But, if you do a warmup (as you should), you'll soon enough notice there are symptom, and then 400 MICROGRAM suffices just fine before the race effort starts.

Unless I'd be locked in a dirty, dirty cat house with a dirty evil cat (I"m allergic to some cats), in my case I'd be fine without salbutamol untill my heart rate goes well over 100 bpm. Although it's perhaps mpore about the breathing rate associated with it.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

Comedy gold!
How blatant can you get...

https://www.nrk.no/sport/kun-sundby-rammes-av-regelendring-1.13147277

Cloxxii, how does 600-800 micrograms salbutamol a day sound to you?

I'm not Cloxxii (are you trying to get him to spit up his coffee), however it does sound a tad high, around 50-60 times recommended daily dose high)...

http://salbutamol.org/dosage-of-salbutamol/
Usual starting dosage of salbutamol is 2mg or 4 mg 3 or 4 times a day. A dosage above 4 mg salbutamol 4 times a day should be used only when the patient fails to respond adequately. If a desirable response does not found with 4 mg salbutamol, it should be cautiously increased the dosage up to a maximum of 8 mg 4 times a day as tolerated.

On the Norwegian Minister of Sport issue, in my line of work if I were to every modify a statement that my Minister made and put him/her in a bad light, I would be looking for new work within the week. Expect a major re-organization in Norwegian sport shortly, likely along with a public investigation.

As Cloxxi answered I also think we're talking about different measures: microgram and milligram. The dose you are referring to is an oral dose which is forbidden by WADA and on the doping list. But the dose MJS is talking about - 600-800 microgram inhaled per day the last 20 months is staggeringly high. I'm an asthmatic since childhodd - a real one - and you simply don't use those doses, and that kind of asthma medication to threat chronic asthma. The recommendation in Sweden for Ventoline, using an inhaler is, 1-2 doses á 0.1 milligram when needed. There are much better alternatives to use for preventive purposes.

And concerning the NSFs earlier logic, is the doses of 600-800 microgram daily the real dose reaching the lungs or the inhaled dose? Research shows that only 10-20% of the dose is deposit to the lungs with an inhaler.
http://www.archbronconeumol.org/en/deposition-inhaled-particles-in-lungs/articulo/S1579212912000845/

 

[sworks]

Discgear: Read PM from me. You are better in translation than I am.....

 

[Cloxxki]

On this topic, because it bugs me.
Didn't we see last season or the one before a (Norwegian) female skier bogging down terribly, seemingly sufferingg from asthma in a 10k or skiathlon or something like that? A Jacobsen type of skier, in my memory. the drop in performance seemed consistent with what I've experienced time and again.
While there are fake astmatics, more than real ones as it seems, I do want to be fair to genuine fellow sufferers.

Other question. To the dopers then, is the whole point to get all the salbutamol they can get into the bloodstream rather than the longs the objective?
Before I look it up, what's the halflife? Short enough to OD consistently and unlikely get Sundby'd ever?

 

[Discgear]

Re:

Discgear: Read PM from me. You are better in translation than I am.....

Something is rotten in the state of…
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/sportpanelen-alla-kort-pa-bordet/

När nyheten om Johnsrud Sundby skulle släppas i somras fick hon ett samtal från norska skidförbundet.
– De ringde till mig och sa att ”det här måste ni hantera rätt, med någon som kan det här” och jag kanske var lite naiv i början som kände att ”det är nog inte så farligt, de har gjort ett misstag”. Men ju mer det här har rullats upp... Nu kommer det fram att de gett det här till friska åkare, i syfte att förebygga deras luftvägsproblematik.

So it turns out that the Norwegian Ski Federation before the press-conference this summer, did phone the XC-journalist at the biggest newspaper in Sweden to tell her that:
You must handle this in the right way, with someone that has a deeper understanding. [url=http://www.svt.se/sport/vint...t-om-sundbydomen-kan-vara-prestationshojande/ [/url]
Danish professor Wibeke Backer was interviewed by Swedish Television recently. She was consulted as an expert when CAS convicted Johnsrud Sundby. She has quite a few sharp statements:
- The case is not at all complicated, she tells.
Why was it important to give him a two months suspension?
- Because it can be performance-enhancing. That’s why we have rules surrounding doping. When he is caught with too much in his urine sample, he has gone beyond the limits.

An further on:
Wibeke claims that the use of Nebulizer is prohibited according to WADA rules:
- It is forbidden. Completely, she says.
- It was never the idea and it has never been a normal treatment of Asthma. Only when you have an acute exacerbation and you are hospitalized with a very low lung-function you are in the need of treatment with Nebulizer. Everyone else should do with ordinary inhaler, maybe with a spacer.

Couldn't someone dig up who were on FIS doping panel when they cleared him?

 

[Discgear]

http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/saresda-borjar-det-att-lukta-riktigt-illa/
Swedish XC-boss says:
it's starting to smell real bad" in Norwegian XC-skiing.
About Sweden and asthma medication:
there is no skeletons in the closet.

Finally:

Den svenske längdchefen säger att när Sundby-fallet blev offentligt så var känslan att allt bara handlade om ett misstag, att det hela kanske inte var så farligt.
– Men sedan bara fortsatte det att växa. Och när det kommer uppgifter om att friska tagit medicin. Då kommer man in på etiska och moraliska frågor - och då börjar det lukta riktigt illa.

Translation:The Swedish XC-boss says that when the Sundby case first became public, you got the imrpession it all was about simple mistakes, nothing serious.
- But then it just continued to grew. And when you hear that healthy athletes have been medicated. Then you are really into etichal and moral questions - it starts to smell really bad.

 

[Cloxxki]

Healthy athletes with administration and dosage that would even get them to perform measurably better.

Let's talk about state sponsored sports medical pratices. These are not commercial trade teams or clubs.

 

[BullsFan22]

Sundby will not appeal his suspension:

http://blogs.fasterskier.com/insidetrack/2016/09/27/sundby-decides-against-doping-appeal/


Probably a wise choice for him, but unfortunate for us. I had the feeling that had he gone through with everything and appealed and let this drag on for a while, we would have gotten a bit of a Armstrong effect, where more people would leak information and perhaps speak out against asthma use on non-Asthmatics. Sundby was probably advised not to take it to the Swiss courts because he doesn't have the funds (I am not sure if the NSF OR the Olympiatoppen are quite ready to dish out thousands of Euros for his defense, as he already was covered by the NSF after he lost his prize money following the official FIS statements and subsequent suspension), and to probably ease the slamming the Norwegians have gotten regarding this whole asthma debacle.

 

[python]

Sundby will not appeal his suspension:

http://blogs.fasterskier.com/insidetrack/2016/09/27/sundby-decides-against-doping-appeal/


Probably a wise choice for him, but unfortunate for us. I had the feeling that had he gone through with everything and appealed and let this drag on for a while, we would have gotten a bit of a Armstrong effect, where more people would leak information and perhaps speak out against asthma use on non-Asthmatics. Sundby was probably advised not to take it to the Swiss courts because he doesn't have the funds (I am not sure if the NSF OR the Olympiatoppen are quite ready to dish out thousands of Euros for his defense, as he already was covered by the NSF after he lost his prize money following the official FIS statements and subsequent suspension), and to probably ease the slamming the Norwegians have gotten regarding this whole asthma debacle.

his non action has nothing to do with the lack of funds. In fact, even if fully adjudicated it would be, at most, several thousand euros. The simple reason he blustered but would never actually appeal was...he had no case. By its own rules, and that was played out numerous times, the swiss supreme court would admit a case only if (a) a proper procedure was violated (b) the appellants human or civil rights were infringed upon as it is interpreted by the swiss law.

At no time did the sundby team complained about either based on the Cas award. It was a case of his now evident arrogance to claim something that was never to have a chance.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

On this topic, because it bugs me.
Didn't we see last season or the one before a (Norwegian) female skier bogging down terribly, seemingly sufferingg from asthma in a 10k or skiathlon or something like that? A Jacobsen type of skier, in my memory. the drop in performance seemed consistent with what I've experienced time and again.
While there are fake astmatics, more than real ones as it seems, I do want to be fair to genuine fellow sufferers.

I think the one to which you refer was indeed Astrid Jacobsen, and it was when she collapsed after stage 2 of the Tour de Ski, which was 15km classic. She's going well early in the race, but in the second half falls back completely then passes out at the finish. The race is here. You can see at around 49:40 as others are finishing, one of the Americans goes to check on her as she hasn't moved since finishing 2 minutes earlier, at about 50:20 they show her on the floor with Diggins running off and Sadie Bjornsen and Nicole Fessel trying to check she's ok; at 50:45 Diggins has returned with medical staff. It's 53:10 before Astrid sits up, over 5 mins after finishing, and looks like she's having trouble breathing.