if this isn't illegal, why wouldn't everyone else now just do it to take away the advantage allegedly being given?
Re:
It is illegal, but for some it seems it's only reallyillegal when it shows up in your pee in a sufficient amount.
And it's bad for your health.
Singer01 said:
It is illegal, but for some it seems it's only reallyillegal when it shows up in your pee in a sufficient amount.
And it's bad for your health.
In two other threads about asthma inhalers, the two following comments are interesting in how asthma medication with Salbutamol could be used in lowering your body fat.
Gloin22 said:
I find this particularly interesting in the light of the debate that was in this thread early 2015 when some Norwegian fan boys, especially Dukoff, highlighted the extremely low body fat (down to 5%) on the female Norwegian skiers as an evidence of superior training. Last week’s revelations about the magnitude of Norwegian asthma medication kind of shreds new light to this topic.ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Therese Johaug has never had asthma but has had asthma medication http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/...n athletes that are on the national team'[/i]
Now also Johatug, Weng, Falla and Flugstad Østberg confirmed being under the Norse Asthma medication cloud, talking about "well-defined" skiers.
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Astmafrisk-Johaug-fikk-astmamedisin---Vi-har-ingenting-a-skjule-816330_1.snd
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Astmafrisk-Johaug-fikk-astmamedisin---Vi-har-ingenting-a-skjule-816330_1.snd
Almost all reader comments on that Aftenposten article are from non-believers. How the table has turned.
- May 29, 2011
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Re:
not when almost without any exception 2 perfect motherhood statements are used by just about all norwegian medics and athletes involved:
a) we did and will continue to do anything to maintain the athlete's health
b) we have nothing to hide. NOTHING.
for the latest example, just read this interview with the doctor of their lady's team
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Langrennslege--Bruker-ikke-vanlige-astmamedisin-pa-friske-816214_1.snd#xtor=RSS-3
...when asked directly, if he used salbutamol or formeterol on those who normally were not diagnosed with asthma, his answer was an arrogant, 'it does not matter what drugs we give them'
and remarkably, as if he did not care how his arrogance would come across to a common reader he declared a question later, '...vi ikke har noe å skjule' (we have nothing to hide)
really, NOTHING ?
discgear already posted long passages from the cas paper on sundby which tells a very different story.
i am skeptical tbh...meat puppet said:
not when almost without any exception 2 perfect motherhood statements are used by just about all norwegian medics and athletes involved:
a) we did and will continue to do anything to maintain the athlete's health
b) we have nothing to hide. NOTHING.
for the latest example, just read this interview with the doctor of their lady's team
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Langrennslege--Bruker-ikke-vanlige-astmamedisin-pa-friske-816214_1.snd#xtor=RSS-3
...when asked directly, if he used salbutamol or formeterol on those who normally were not diagnosed with asthma, his answer was an arrogant, 'it does not matter what drugs we give them'
and remarkably, as if he did not care how his arrogance would come across to a common reader he declared a question later, '...vi ikke har noe å skjule' (we have nothing to hide)
really, NOTHING ?
discgear already posted long passages from the cas paper on sundby which tells a very different story.
https://www.nrk.no/sport/bruker-astmamedisin-under-konkurranser---har-ikke-astma-1.13122785
Krogh and Bransdal doesn't have asthma, but admits to have used asthma meds before competition(and after sprint prologues).
Only Northug left of the big norwegian stars that hasn't used any(as far as we know)?
Krogh and Bransdal doesn't have asthma, but admits to have used asthma meds before competition(and after sprint prologues).
Only Northug left of the big norwegian stars that hasn't used any(as far as we know)?
Re:
Like Python says, it's the arrogance that has got people really annoyed. The people at the elite end of XC in Norway do not seem to be aware of how they are being perceived.
kosmonaut said:
Like Python says, it's the arrogance that has got people really annoyed. The people at the elite end of XC in Norway do not seem to be aware of how they are being perceived.
- May 13, 2011
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To summarize:
- the sport science of using asthma medication has been in large part conducted by the Norwegians
- WADA used this information to, in substantive part, to set the asthma medication limits
- some of the research shows no benefit to using asthma medication
- the same researchers who conducted the base sport science are advising the national team
- most of the national team are on asthma medications, whether or not they have asthma.
- the amount of medication used far exceeds normal standards
- mode of delivery of medication uses a non-standard method
- the national team has been dominant in competition with very few (any?) positive tests
- the ethics of at least 1 project has been brought into serious doubt, with the published paper being pulled after it was shown that the research was conducted before the ethic review (which rejected the research until interventions were done)
Systematic, yes.
Now, who from the Norwegian fed is on the WADA committee or FIS, and able to 'influence' any decisions made?
- the sport science of using asthma medication has been in large part conducted by the Norwegians
- WADA used this information to, in substantive part, to set the asthma medication limits
- some of the research shows no benefit to using asthma medication
- the same researchers who conducted the base sport science are advising the national team
- most of the national team are on asthma medications, whether or not they have asthma.
- the amount of medication used far exceeds normal standards
- mode of delivery of medication uses a non-standard method
- the national team has been dominant in competition with very few (any?) positive tests
- the ethics of at least 1 project has been brought into serious doubt, with the published paper being pulled after it was shown that the research was conducted before the ethic review (which rejected the research until interventions were done)
Systematic, yes.
Now, who from the Norwegian fed is on the WADA committee or FIS, and able to 'influence' any decisions made?
Absolutely it's arrogance! The Norwegians have ruled xc skiing for decades and a big part of that is arrogance. It starts from the top and it trickles down to the skiers themselves. It's one of the main reasons why they haven't been busted yet, and all roads lead to foul play from the mid or late 80's on, hence I earlier noted Mads Drange. If some of you here don't know who he is, google him!
Kowalzcyk has been made to look like a fool by the Norwegian media stooges for the last 5 or 6 years, she is finally being proved correct.
The Finnish anti-doping doctors were spot on to criticize the Norwegians when the Sundby debacle popped up earlier this summer.
Now the statistic of Norwegians 'suffering' from asthma and winning Olympic medals since 1992 isn't as surprising anymore. This was going on for way longer than 2011, it seems. Going back to Mads Drange, I think there is more doping involved with the Norwegians than simply going way over the exceeded limit on asthma meds. The hematocrit levels and blood values from the 90's is just something else that was happening but unfortunately nothing materialized apart from the Finnish and Swedish documentaries.
The difference between the Norwegians and Russians is that the Norwegians have more power than anyone in FIS and WADA. They are able to do (it seems) anything they want. The doctors advise the NSF of taking the meds, the NSF advises the coaches and the coaches encourage everyone on the team to take meds. Does anyone else in the xc ski world have that luxury?
Continuing on with differentiations between the Norwegians and the rest, the Norwegians, I believe, have also used the Russian, Finnish, Italian, Austrian, etc doping sagas to hide behind and they have used this platform to stand with their chests out and remind everyone 'how clean they are, how they work well with WADA and other anti-doping agencies to clean the sport and how everyone else should aspire to be more like them...'
To conclude, and this is important going forward: how far will this go? Will there be a fair, internationally balanced investigation that doesn't go easy on the Norwegians? Will there be any punishment for those involved be issued if everything talked about is true? Will there be sanctions? Suspensions? New venues looked at as they are talking about with the Russians? Will all the non-Ny have for so long whilst focusing squarely on the Russians? If Beckie Scott wants to be taken more seriously, she is going to have to say something other than the "Russia needs to be punished. They are stealing medals from clean, honest medals..." talk that really came to it's peak in Rio. So far, I haven't heard or seen anything of the sort. Folks like Scott, Wadsworth, Marty Hall, Jack Sasseville, Jim Galanes, Ian Harvey, Max Cobb, John Estle...all North Americans...have been more than vocal in blaming all the doping on the Russians, while hardly whispering anything about the Norwegians. Then or now. Will they finally say something? Will they be as aggressive towards the Norwegians as they were towards the Russians? I mention the North Americans specifically because I mostly follow news regarding North American skiing and the North American perspective on international skiing.
Can't wait for the upcoming season. What with so many story lines, the asthma queen Bjoergen coming back, the world champs in Lahti this season (a bit of irony there, eh?)...Should be quite a ride!
Kowalzcyk has been made to look like a fool by the Norwegian media stooges for the last 5 or 6 years, she is finally being proved correct.
The Finnish anti-doping doctors were spot on to criticize the Norwegians when the Sundby debacle popped up earlier this summer.
Now the statistic of Norwegians 'suffering' from asthma and winning Olympic medals since 1992 isn't as surprising anymore. This was going on for way longer than 2011, it seems. Going back to Mads Drange, I think there is more doping involved with the Norwegians than simply going way over the exceeded limit on asthma meds. The hematocrit levels and blood values from the 90's is just something else that was happening but unfortunately nothing materialized apart from the Finnish and Swedish documentaries.
The difference between the Norwegians and Russians is that the Norwegians have more power than anyone in FIS and WADA. They are able to do (it seems) anything they want. The doctors advise the NSF of taking the meds, the NSF advises the coaches and the coaches encourage everyone on the team to take meds. Does anyone else in the xc ski world have that luxury?
Continuing on with differentiations between the Norwegians and the rest, the Norwegians, I believe, have also used the Russian, Finnish, Italian, Austrian, etc doping sagas to hide behind and they have used this platform to stand with their chests out and remind everyone 'how clean they are, how they work well with WADA and other anti-doping agencies to clean the sport and how everyone else should aspire to be more like them...'
To conclude, and this is important going forward: how far will this go? Will there be a fair, internationally balanced investigation that doesn't go easy on the Norwegians? Will there be any punishment for those involved be issued if everything talked about is true? Will there be sanctions? Suspensions? New venues looked at as they are talking about with the Russians? Will all the non-Ny have for so long whilst focusing squarely on the Russians? If Beckie Scott wants to be taken more seriously, she is going to have to say something other than the "Russia needs to be punished. They are stealing medals from clean, honest medals..." talk that really came to it's peak in Rio. So far, I haven't heard or seen anything of the sort. Folks like Scott, Wadsworth, Marty Hall, Jack Sasseville, Jim Galanes, Ian Harvey, Max Cobb, John Estle...all North Americans...have been more than vocal in blaming all the doping on the Russians, while hardly whispering anything about the Norwegians. Then or now. Will they finally say something? Will they be as aggressive towards the Norwegians as they were towards the Russians? I mention the North Americans specifically because I mostly follow news regarding North American skiing and the North American perspective on international skiing.
Can't wait for the upcoming season. What with so many story lines, the asthma queen Bjoergen coming back, the world champs in Lahti this season (a bit of irony there, eh?)...Should be quite a ride!
Re:
So today it was revealed that the two top sprinters Finn-Hågen Krogh and Eirik Brandsdal - both non asthmatics - are also users of asthma medication. https://www.nrk.no/sport/bruker-astmamedisin-under-konkurranser---har-ikke-astma-1.13122785
Krogh:
- Det gjelder spesielt i sprintprolog i høyden. Da kan man kjenne det skikkelig i brystet
translated
- Especially after sprint prologues at high altitude. Then you really feel it in your chest
(or, before the final rounds starts...)
So the Norwegian logic is. Since it is much tougher to race fast at altitude, we are using asthma medication to make it easier. But it's not doping, it is to make it possible for us to race at our best.
That's a very good short list.Random Direction said:
So today it was revealed that the two top sprinters Finn-Hågen Krogh and Eirik Brandsdal - both non asthmatics - are also users of asthma medication. https://www.nrk.no/sport/bruker-astmamedisin-under-konkurranser---har-ikke-astma-1.13122785
Krogh:
- Det gjelder spesielt i sprintprolog i høyden. Da kan man kjenne det skikkelig i brystet
translated
- Especially after sprint prologues at high altitude. Then you really feel it in your chest
(or, before the final rounds starts...)
So the Norwegian logic is. Since it is much tougher to race fast at altitude, we are using asthma medication to make it easier. But it's not doping, it is to make it possible for us to race at our best.
The defence that has so far been given for using asthma meds in XC is really a deconstruction of the whole concept of XC as a sporting contest. Those of us that are mere spectators and not sitting at the high table of elite sport understand this instinctively. We are not idiots.
Questions I would like to see put to the Norwegian national team:
What equipment has been used to deliver the medication?
Has the practice of medicating asthmatic and 'otherwise sick' skiers with asthma meds been changed for the upcoming season?
Are there any skiers on the team that *haven't* received asthma meds?
Opinion piece from VG http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/arrogansen-forverrer-astma-krisen/a/23786547/
Questions I would like to see put to the Norwegian national team:
What equipment has been used to deliver the medication?
Has the practice of medicating asthmatic and 'otherwise sick' skiers with asthma meds been changed for the upcoming season?
Are there any skiers on the team that *haven't* received asthma meds?
Opinion piece from VG http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/arrogansen-forverrer-astma-krisen/a/23786547/
So very true!Blaaswix said:
I would like to add the following:Blaaswix said:
Concerning the arguments put forward in CAS-case on Nebulizers efficiency, what kind of doses have NSF team doctors recommended for use during competition, before and after competition, during competition season and during training season, be it Nebulizers or MDIs ?
Since the asthma medication mentioned so far: Ventoline, Symbicourt, Atrovent and Bricanyl are all prescription drugs and thus personal, have they been paid for by the team or the athlete?
What is the total number of different asthma medication units consumed within the national XC-team yearly?
Is it ethical to help the skiers recover with prescription drugs distributed by medical equipment between the races in a sprint event?
BTW, read Pythons summarization in the ASTHMA INHALERS thread, very concise and enlightning!
Very interesting read today in Verdens Gang. Danish scientist and asthma expert Morten Hostrup smashes the attitude from the Norwegian Ski Federation. The respons from NSF in the end, is a sorry excuse for an argument.
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/jeg-synes-norges-skiforbund-har-valgt-en-aggressiv-tone/a/23788282/
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/jeg-synes-norges-skiforbund-har-valgt-en-aggressiv-tone/a/23788282/
Re:
Ha, the article is full of references to a doctoral thesis and many other studies that show a performance enhancing effect of asthma meds, and all the skiforbundet come back with is 'we haven't seen any of those studies'. Oh please. This just gets worse day by day.Discgear said:
Here's an article in Dagbladet http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/mener...isin---vi-beveger-oss-alle-mot-astma/62428310 where Former Norwegian national team skier, asthmatic and medical student Simen Andreas Sveen explains that asthma medicine for top athletes is not used in the same way as for ordinary people (you don't say), and for example if an ordinary person has a bad knee they can still go to work, but for XC skiers they would have no chance as the competitive differences at the highest level are so small. That's the whole point of having a sporting contest. Kowalczyk skied with a broken foot!
An article here has the title WADA disagrees with Norwegian experts - asthma medicine can have an effect http://www.tv2.no/sport/8580390/.
(Edited to include an open access link).
An article here has the title WADA disagrees with Norwegian experts - asthma medicine can have an effect http://www.tv2.no/sport/8580390/.
(Edited to include an open access link).
Blaaswix said:
Norwegian journalists are actually doing what journalists are supposed to be doing. This is such a revenge after the media debacle three years ago, when they uncritically swallowed all the lame excuses and smoke screens put out by the Norwegian Ski Federation, after the SVT documentary Blodracet.
In this article today http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/verde...e-prestasjonsfremmende/a/23790053/#xtor=CS6-7, Dr Olivier Rabin, WADA's Science Director since September 2002, says that recent research shows that Salbutamol in bigger doses has a performance enhancing effect. Further on, he states that Nebulizer is only for medical emergencies, and if you carefully read WADA guidelines it’s pretty clear that a Nebulizer should be used only with great precaution and with a TUE.
From the last weeks, we know that the whole Norwegian XC-team (even Northug?) is still using Nebulizer, asthmatics as well as non-asthmatics. We also know that Johnsrud Sundby is still using Nebulizer, though not with Ventoline.
Than in stark contrast to WADAs standpoint, VG has a revealing summary of Norwegian athletes and officials statements about asthma medication:
Numerous studies shows that asthma medication has no performance enhancing effect. That is also the conclusion by WADA.Martin Johnsrud Sundby, TV 2, 6.9.2016
And the Norwegian Asthma guru Kai Håkon Carlsen, one of the left-overs from the dirty 90s:
All research shows no performance enhancing effects. Aftenposten 23.7.2016
Many was afraid of performance enhancing effects, therefore a lot of research and studies was started after 1993 that shows that it was not the case. VG 27.7.2016
There has been research about if there is performance enhancing effects with higher doses than recommended. The research shows, that is not the case. Aftenposten 22.7.2016
Research shows that inhalated asthma medication is not performance enhancing. Nordlys 03.02.94
And then some other voices:
Nothing implicates that athletes using asthma medication performs better than they would have done being healthy in the lungs.Fredrik Bendiksen, team doctor, TV 2, 5.9.2016
All research shows that this asthma medication has no performance enhancing effects if you are not an asthmatic
Marit Bjørgen, press-release NSF, 20.7.2016
Completely legal drugs with no performance enhancing effects. Former team doctor Kjell Eystein Røkke, NTB 11.02.92
The medication has no positive effect whatsoever if you are healthy. Swedish professor Leif Bjermer, Aftenposten 04.02.99
Lung specialists have documented Thomas Alsgaards astmathic problems. Hence, he could use this medication, but the medication is not performance enhancing if you are not an asthmatic. Former team doctor Knut Gabrielsen, NTB 05.01.02
And nowhere to be seen is ToreBear
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ever since the sundby asthma-gate broke out, i've been keeping an eye on both the main stream scandinavian media and the less official forums and reader comments...here's what surprised me, actually stunned me -- the virtual lack of any discussion regarding the finer details of what may look as a sophisticated doping scheme. the stress is on SOPHISTICATED as opposed to random, amateurism of the poor soles swallowing any crap and injecting themselves with own blood...
before i get misunderstood, a disclaimer here is due. i am not insisting on the existence of a deliberate doping program in norway. just calling for some attention to the common features of what we have learned from a sophisticated cycling doping. here are some.
1. they are always supervised by and act in accordance with the expert doctors. needless to remind, that in the case of sundby-gate, the medics role in administering the drug to the healthy was not only admitted and vigorously defended, but the entire fiasco was spuns as a doctor mistake.
2. well calculated drug dozes and administration timing so that by the time of giving a doping sample, the drug is either cleared from the system or falls below the detectable threshold. thus beating the test (i explained it in the point 4. here viewtopic.php?p=2018684#p2018684) the scientists call it a drug's half life.
for instance, as we now know from the cas document on sundby, his clearance of salbutamol was VERY fast. almost gone just several hours after 'eating' it. his personal studies proved it ! it is unimaginable that the highly professional norwegian team docs (mind you - the doctors that followed his asthma for many years by their own admission) would be blind to his fast salbutamol clearance. too bad for them, when administering the illegal nebulizer, they likely miscalculated.
3. combining anti-asthma with other drugs to stay undetectable and still being a ped. this principle is so subtle and cutting edge that only a team of various specialization experts can apply it right. very curiously, and this went over the heads of almost everyone, the danish researcher quoted above hinted at it black on white when interviewed about sundby. what the dane meant but did not elaborate is - the combination of short acting beta agonists (salbutamol) and long acting (formoterol) with trace dozes of sympathomimetics or corticosteroids and various other agents shown to affect athsma...
the mechanism of doping would be similar to the one used by the russian wada lab chief rodchenkov turned wada whistle blower. he said he experimented with and invented a cocktail of 3 quick acting anabolic steroids that would be in such small quantities that individually were undetectable yet delivered a triple punch. this is the micro-dosing cutting edge that requires a direct feedback from a sophisticated laboratory.
before i get misunderstood, a disclaimer here is due. i am not insisting on the existence of a deliberate doping program in norway. just calling for some attention to the common features of what we have learned from a sophisticated cycling doping. here are some.
1. they are always supervised by and act in accordance with the expert doctors. needless to remind, that in the case of sundby-gate, the medics role in administering the drug to the healthy was not only admitted and vigorously defended, but the entire fiasco was spuns as a doctor mistake.
2. well calculated drug dozes and administration timing so that by the time of giving a doping sample, the drug is either cleared from the system or falls below the detectable threshold. thus beating the test (i explained it in the point 4. here viewtopic.php?p=2018684#p2018684) the scientists call it a drug's half life.
for instance, as we now know from the cas document on sundby, his clearance of salbutamol was VERY fast. almost gone just several hours after 'eating' it. his personal studies proved it ! it is unimaginable that the highly professional norwegian team docs (mind you - the doctors that followed his asthma for many years by their own admission) would be blind to his fast salbutamol clearance. too bad for them, when administering the illegal nebulizer, they likely miscalculated.
3. combining anti-asthma with other drugs to stay undetectable and still being a ped. this principle is so subtle and cutting edge that only a team of various specialization experts can apply it right. very curiously, and this went over the heads of almost everyone, the danish researcher quoted above hinted at it black on white when interviewed about sundby. what the dane meant but did not elaborate is - the combination of short acting beta agonists (salbutamol) and long acting (formoterol) with trace dozes of sympathomimetics or corticosteroids and various other agents shown to affect athsma...
the mechanism of doping would be similar to the one used by the russian wada lab chief rodchenkov turned wada whistle blower. he said he experimented with and invented a cocktail of 3 quick acting anabolic steroids that would be in such small quantities that individually were undetectable yet delivered a triple punch. this is the micro-dosing cutting edge that requires a direct feedback from a sophisticated laboratory.
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