Doping in XC skiing

[Blaaswix]

Yes very good, Discgear.

 

[Blaaswix]

http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/...-fremmer-toft-krav-til-Ski-Norge-811037_1.sndKowalczyk is now asking which Norwegian skiers have asthma, how it's diagnosed and what the medication is (and how it's administered, presumably).

Kowalczyk is absolutely right.

 

[python]

Re:

http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/...-fremmer-toft-krav-til-Ski-Norge-811037_1.sndKowalczyk is now asking which Norwegian skiers have asthma, how it's diagnosed and what the medication is (and how it's administered, presumably).

Kowalczyk is absolutely right.

not just kawalczyk...she has been very consistent and critical over many years.... almost the only one, except vialbe, untill very recently.

imo one of the sports most talented skiers - and certainly one of the best skaters maurice manificat isn't mincing his words, 'how can the norwegians be so harsh on punishing the russians, when their own record is not clean ?

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/raser-mot-norges-skiforbund---er-de-egentlig-noe-bedre-enn-russland/61087822#_ga=1.161987707.653649278.1469027514

several others are more reserved.

@discgear
agree 200%. any 'internal' investigation by the norwegian fed will be meaningless. the most recent examples of spinning, lack of transparency and the outright obfuscation (recall the blood values from the 90s ) are still fresh.

it is somewhat encouraging that the norge sportsministress linda helland, per the article in vg.no seems to favour an independent investigation.

----
almost forgot to post, and this is the most curious stat in the face of the norwegian abuse of the asthma meds...

there were total 11 cases, repeat 11 out of 25 applications ! granted for the asthma meds for ALL russian athletes in ALL sports ...(this is several thousand) in 2015. source: rusada

 

[Discgear]

Today MD Thor-Øistein Endsjø (80), former team doctor of Norwegian Olympic team, Biathlon-, Skating- and Athletic teams in the media told that he medicated healthy Norwegian athletes already at the 1984 Olympics in LA. He said that it gave them a competitive edge and they used “small doses” of Ventolin.
He said that a Nebulizer is almost exclusively used on seriously ill asthma patients, and then really sick ones. He also said that he was the Norwegian XC-team doctor 1985-86, and then used the same asthma treatment as with the long distance runners in the Olympics.

He was also stunned by the doses MJS was inhaling just before competition. He has never heard about any other athletes been given such doses.
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/toppi...sin-til-friske-ol-utoevere-i-1984/a/23777362/

The scientific article mentioned in another thread about a study of young elite XC-skiers from Trondelag in Norway and Jamtland in Sweden. 118 was from Norway and 53 came from Sweden. Among the Norwegians 46% reported asthma related symptoms and 51% of the Swedish. However when they were clinically tested for bronchial hyper-responsiveness with methacoline – methacoline is primarily used to diagnose BHR, a hallmark of asthma – only 14% of the Norwegian skiers were hyper-responsive compared to 43% of the Swedish.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611196902061

A question comes to mind considering how long this has been going on, and also the study mentioned above; When NSF and Antdoping Norge now will investigate the use of asthma medication, must not also a test be done among the national team skiers, who has asthma and who has not? Such a study should of course then be done by MDs from other countries, handpicked by WADA.

 

[kosmonaut]

Re:

He said that a Nebulizer is almost exclusively used on seriously ill asthma patients, and then really sick ones.

Then this one from Sundby last week is quite stunning:

– My son is asthmatic like me. And when he is bad at home he gets asthma medicine through a nebulizer. It is a normal way of treating asthma patients in Norway, says Sundby.

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/martin-johnsrud-sundby/sundby-ikke-meningen-aa-holde-det-hemmelig/a/23772601/

 

[Blaaswix]

Article here http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Disse-fire-punktene-kan-renvaske-landslaget-i-langrenn-812247_1.snd The skiforbundet have confirmed that an independent committee will investigate the use of asthma meds. The four points the committee will look at are:
1. Look at routines for following up and the use of medicines by athletes
2. Examine if there is any breach of ethical guidelines for health professionals
3. Evaluate if the routines fall within sports medicine practice
4. See if the routines have been followed in practice

The first point kind of covers all the subsequent points.

 

[BullsFan22]

Sundby and the NSF will only dig a deeper hole for themselves if they keep trying to fight this. An 'independent' investigation is long overdue, though I think NADA shouldn't be involved, at all. They supported Sundby and the NSF when he was dealing with WADA and FIS, and thought he shouldn't have been sanctioned. It's one thing if he missed an out of competition test, due to whereabouts mistake or something of that nature, but Sudby's case is clear. The doctors, coaches and the NSF encouraged nebulizer use for what appears to be a significant amount of time, and in Sundby's case, at least 10x as much as the legal limit was used on numerous occasions in the 2014/2015 seasons. I am certain it wasn't the first or last time this happened.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

Article here http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Disse-fire-punktene-kan-renvaske-landslaget-i-langrenn-812247_1.snd The skiforbundet have confirmed that an independent committee will investigate the use of asthma meds. The four points the committee will look at are:
1. Look at routines for following up and the use of medicines by athletes
2. Examine if there is any breach of ethical guidelines for health professionals
3. Evaluate if the routines fall within sports medicine practice
4. See if the routines have been followed in practice

The first point kind of covers all the subsequent points.

Norway is rapidly losing the trust they might historically have had in antidoping work. Today more information came about the coming “independent commission” the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last Friday. It turns out that they have instructed the XC-committee of the Norwegian Ski Federation to choose the “independent” competence for the commission. The name put forward so far, is the Swedish professor Leif Bjermer at Lund University, who have spoken out in media the two last weeks about asthma medication not being performance enhancing and only benefiting athletes with asthma. The same Bjermer has done a lot of research with the very same Norwegian experts that the NSF have been using as references in the CAS-case. Remember also that prof. Bremer for 10 years was professor at the university in Trondheim, Norway. Not what I would call a beyond reasonable doubt independent person.
https://www.nrk.no/sport/vil-at-svensker-skal-granske-norsk-langrenns-medisinbruk-1.13111400

 

[Blaaswix]

There badly needs to be people from outside the Nordic countries, and indeed outside the nordic countries to be credible.
Meanwhile the sale of nebulizers in Norway has gone up 'noticeably' after the Sundby case this summer. https://www.nrk.no/sport/okt-salg-av-astmautstyr_-_-veldig-trist-1.13112552
Terribly contagious, asthma.

 

[Discgear]

Alexander Kristoff

An update, and this is real dynamite. This is from an interview with Norwegian cyclist (and asthmatic) Alexander Kristoff (my translation). http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/kri...ket-over-dosene-jeg-hoerte-de-tok/a/23780297/

[he] choked when he heard how much asthma medication many of the XC-skiers were using
- I was surprised over the doses I heard they took. I was told to use not more than five “puffs” a day, and they are talking about doses with 50 puffs. I would have dropped my yawn if I was told to take 50 puffs every day. I mean it would almost have been a full box, in that sence I was surprised.

To me it looks as if the reporter was surprised by Kristoffs statement since the reporter goes on:

He means the dosage the Norwegian Ski Federation used in a Nebulizer to medicate Martin Johnsrud Sundby.

However, it is pretty obvious that Kristoff is not only talking about MJS when he says “many of the XC-skiers”. It’s also obvious that he isn’t talking about a Nebulizer when he says “50 puffs”. To me it confirms what I was talking about a few days ago. According to a couple of scientific articles, the efficiency of an inhaler (MDI) is around 10-15%. MJS dosage 10 times the allowed was due to a supposed efficiency in Nebulizers of only 10%. (WADA-expert claimed 40% efficiency). Kristoff here in my opinion, confirms that the Norwegian XC-team has been using the same logic on inhalers as they put forward to CAS concerning Nebulizers, hence: 50 puffs against recommended 5 puffs!!!

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Alexander Kristoff

An update, and this is real dynamite. This is from an interview with Norwegian cyclist (and asthmatic) Alexander Kristoff (my translation). http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/kri...ket-over-dosene-jeg-hoerte-de-tok/a/23780297/

[he] choked when he heard how much asthma medication many of the XC-skiers were using
- I was surprised over the doses I heard they took. I was told to use not more than five “puffs” a day, and they are talking about doses with 50 puffs. I would have dropped my yawn if I was told to take 50 puffs every day. I mean it would almost have been a full box, in that sence I was surprised.

To me it looks as if the reporter was surprised by Kristoffs statement since the reporter goes on:

He means the dosage the Norwegian Ski Federation used in a Nebulizer to medicate Martin Johnsrud Sundby.

However, it is pretty obvious that Kristoff is not only talking about MJS when he says “many of the XC-skiers”. It’s also obvious that he isn’t talking about a Nebulizer when he says “50 puffs”. To me it confirms what I was talking about a few days ago. According to a couple of scientific articles, the efficiency of an inhaler (MDI) is around 10-15%. MJS dosage 10 times the allowed was due to a supposed efficiency in Nebulizers of only 10%. (WADA-expert claimed 40% efficiency). Kristoff here in my opinion, confirms that the Norwegian XC-team has been using the same logic on inhalers as they put forward to CAS concerning Nebulizers, hence: 50 puffs against recommended 5 puffs!!!

Never thought I'd see the day a professional cyclist is 'surprised' to hear how much 'puff' a professional xc skier is taking. When you are taking more 'puff' than an established top pro like Kristoff, you know you are overboard.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Alexander Kristoff

An update, and this is real dynamite. This is from an interview with Norwegian cyclist (and asthmatic) Alexander Kristoff (my translation). http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/kri...ket-over-dosene-jeg-hoerte-de-tok/a/23780297/

[he] choked when he heard how much asthma medication many of the XC-skiers were using
- I was surprised over the doses I heard they took. I was told to use not more than five “puffs” a day, and they are talking about doses with 50 puffs. I would have dropped my yawn if I was told to take 50 puffs every day. I mean it would almost have been a full box, in that sence I was surprised.

To me it looks as if the reporter was surprised by Kristoffs statement since the reporter goes on:

He means the dosage the Norwegian Ski Federation used in a Nebulizer to medicate Martin Johnsrud Sundby.

However, it is pretty obvious that Kristoff is not only talking about MJS when he says “many of the XC-skiers”. It’s also obvious that he isn’t talking about a Nebulizer when he says “50 puffs”. To me it confirms what I was talking about a few days ago. According to a couple of scientific articles, the efficiency of an inhaler (MDI) is around 10-15%. MJS dosage 10 times the allowed was due to a supposed efficiency in Nebulizers of only 10%. (WADA-expert claimed 40% efficiency). Kristoff here in my opinion, confirms that the Norwegian XC-team has been using the same logic on inhalers as they put forward to CAS concerning Nebulizers, hence: 50 puffs against recommended 5 puffs!!!

Never thought I'd see the day a professional cyclist is 'surprised' to hear how much 'puff' a professional xc skier is taking. When you are taking more 'puff' than an established top pro like Kristoff, you know you are overboard.

And now the Norwegian Biathletes. Let me introduce Emil-Hegle Svendsen, two times Olympic gold medalist and 11 World championship goldmedals:

I don't have asthma diagnosis. It depends on the situation. I'm using asthma medication whenever I need it.

Ooops!
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2016...aren-astmamedicin-anvands-att-halla-sig-frisk

 

[Cloxxki]

If the efficiency of a nebulizer is 10-15%, the rest just goes into the blood stream without helping your asthma? Tragic. Luckily the dose is high enough to work wonders on the rest of the body...

 

[kosmonaut]

VG keeping the boiler on.

http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/etikk-komite-med-krass-astma-kritikk/a/23782273/
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/kronikk-astmamedisin-og-doping/a/23782258/

 

[Blaaswix]

Re:

VG keeping the boiler on.

http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/etikk-komite-med-krass-astma-kritikk/a/23782273/
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/kronikk-astmamedisin-og-doping/a/23782258/

Staggering! An ethics in health research committee warned them off and still they continued. What will it take? Where are WADA?

 

[Blaaswix]

This just keeps going. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/idr...t-folk-tror-vi-er-en-elitefabrikk/a/23783830/

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

VG keeping the boiler on.

http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/etikk-komite-med-krass-astma-kritikk/a/23782273/
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/kronikk-astmamedisin-og-doping/a/23782258/

Staggering! An ethics in health research committee warned them off and still they continued. What will it take? Where are WADA?

Sensational stuff. WADA have to act now.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/norskt-astmaprojekt-har-pagatt-i-decennier/
The Swedes, not surprisingly, are all over this story.
Healthy skiers have been getting asthma medicine for the past 25 years. WADA said to Swedish TV that it does not break anti-doping rules but is "unsuitable": Norway's Culture Minister and NSF support an investigation.
Interesting point made about how legal or ethical it is for doctors to prescribe asthma medicine to a non-asthmatic.

 

[python]

http://www.tv2.no/sport/8560242/

this danish researcher (morten hostrup) from the famous/esteemed bispebjerg hospital in copenhagen (the same place the current fis antidoping tzar and formerly the uci's antidoping expert mr.damsgaard conducted his research in/from) calls the spade a spade...my translation of some parts that jumped at me:

'the asthma meds enhance performance including in the healthy, even in small dozes...the performance effect is NOT on endurance BUT on power and speed...it is not about the increased lung ventilation or lung capacity (claimed by the drug apologists - python), but about something similar to the adrenaline rush except the effect may last not minutes but for several hours...is this doping ?...well, if not doping, it is an extra therapeutic abuse...'

 

[Random Direction]

And what exactly is cross-country skiing? A power endurance sport one technique and vastly over focused waxing and skis thrown in.

Having raced and coached for over 20 years, and having experienced shortness of breath at various times (particularly in very cold dry air) it wouldnt be a big step to claim various other asthma like symptoms and then get a TUE and prescription. Hell, a doctor 10 years ago said I might have asthma turns out the symptoms went away when I switched from lattes to Americanos - too much milk caused the swelling. Only issue is that I'm old, out of shape and slow now.

The Norwegians better come clean on this one. State sanctioned and aided doping - just like the Russians.

Hmm, I should call up x/c canada and see how many of our skiers turned out to be late blooming asthmatics.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.active.com/triathlon/articles/endurance-athletes-and-exercise-induced-asthma-877894
Good piece on why so many pros get "asthma".

 

[Discgear]

Finally, a whistlebolower from the Norwegian Ski Federation speaks out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2-hxmNTA_U&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

 

[BullsFan22]

Wonder what Mads Drange thinks of all of this.

 

[Robert5091]

Re:

Finally, a whistlebolower from the Norwegian Ski Federation speaks out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2-hxmNTA_U&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

Yeah a 2 month suspension in the middle of Summer - that'll teach 'em! :razz:

 

[Cloxxki]

So it's not just that non-athmatic athletes gain anadvantage. If they're in fact asthmatic like myself and many others, they'll just take 10x and upwards the required dose, even also on rest days, and then end up being faster than a non-asthmatic can be?