Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Python (et. al),

I apologize. I didn't mean to take the wrong turn. As you probably know by now, I have a lot of opinions on quite a number of subjects here on these forums. I'll leave it at that.

Again, I hope nobody took offense to me swerving towards another direction.

So yes, let us continue this good thread.

 

[John de Savage]

"VG vet at Antidoping Norge har fått tilgang på utskrifter fra bankkontoen til Bendiksen. TV 2 har tidligere meldt at han trolig betalte kontant for salvene som ble kjøpt på et apotek i Livigno. Men Norges Skiforbund opplyser overfor VG at kjøpet ble gjort med bankkort. Han skal også selv være i besittelse av originalkvitteringen."

Google Translate: "VG know that Anti-Doping Norway has gained access to transcripts from the bank account of Bendiksen. TV 2 has previously announced that he probably paid cash for ointments that were purchased at a pharmacy in Livigno. But the Norwegian Ski Federation says to VG that the purchase was made by credit card. He will also even be in possession of the original receipt."

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/therese-johaug/paatalenemnda-aapner-sak-mot-johaugs-tidligere-lege/a/23824314/

So it looks like there's proof that the team doc did buy Trofodermin on september 3rd. Will Johaug avoid a 4 year suspension if their story is accepted?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

"VG vet at Antidoping Norge har fått tilgang på utskrifter fra bankkontoen til Bendiksen. TV 2 har tidligere meldt at han trolig betalte kontant for salvene som ble kjøpt på et apotek i Livigno. Men Norges Skiforbund opplyser overfor VG at kjøpet ble gjort med bankkort. Han skal også selv være i besittelse av originalkvitteringen."

Google Translate: "VG know that Anti-Doping Norway has gained access to transcripts from the bank account of Bendiksen. TV 2 has previously announced that he probably paid cash for ointments that were purchased at a pharmacy in Livigno. But the Norwegian Ski Federation says to VG that the purchase was made by credit card. He will also even be in possession of the original receipt."

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/therese-johaug/paatalenemnda-aapner-sak-mot-johaugs-tidligere-lege/a/23824314/

So it looks like there's proof that the team doc did buy Trofodermin on september 3rd. Will Johaug avoid a 4 year suspension if their story is accepted?

So what was NSF's original defense? That he bought that on a particular day and that the steroid wasn't in the body as long as it was or what?

 

[python]

Re:

"

So it looks like there's proof that the team doc did buy Trofodermin on september 3rd. Will Johaug avoid a 4 year suspension if their story is accepted?

john, have you had a chance to read the thread up..? i posted a copy of the alleged receipt way back. page up. the source, and i may be off somewhat here, was a reprint of a vg photo. the presence of a purchase receipt is subject to a forensic verification. very much so. that is, was it a genuine purchase or a ...bribe / was the sept 3 norwegian purchase one of a kind at a given time or there was evidence (mind you, cash would be the king) of a norge dealing with the store before ?

what we get to read now in the norge msm is probably a mix btwn the real investigative journalism and the attempts to 'conduit' the official story. the precedence of secretiveness of the sundby case should still matter...

 

[kosmonaut]

Several Italian doctors fail to see how Trofodermin can be used on lips:

http://www.tv2.no/sport/8668241/

– I've never heard of anyone using Trofodermin to treat sunburned lips. You don't apply clostebol on the thin skins which is the lips, says dr. Peter Ploner in Castelrotto.

 

[abcdaniel]

From earlier Norwegian doping controversies, we know that the NSF wants to change the discussion from performance enhancement to a technical or medical peculiarity. After Blodracet it was the Hemocue measuring device, after Sundby it was the Nebulizer. They have been succesful in that tactic in the past, and this time they've outdone themselves. Everyone's talking about that damn cream!

No matter the media, the reporter, the commenter, the official, the doctor: that cream just drowns out any discussion about the benefits for Johaug in taking steroids. What kind of performance enhancement could be expected for that light, intense skier (it has been discussed earlier in this thread, to its credit!). NSF has done a tremendous job in making that entire discussion disappear under a layer of cream.

It is a well constructed lie and public relations tactic, unfortunately they forgot to image google the cream. Or maybe they did image google the cream and thought it still was the best lie. No problem!

 

[Cloxxki]

So if I find an ointment that nicely matches a common condition AND my personal steroid plan, I'm golden as long as I keep a pharmacy receipt?
Time to book a training camp in a country where they sell such crap over the counter. And print payment receipts with product description.

But again, leaving testers wait at your door (broken doorbell) gets you 1-2 years. Not seeing that there's doping on a package from a pharmacy...all OK as long as you have a receipt. Yeah, right.

 

[Lyon]

Re:

From earlier Norwegian doping controversies, we know that the NSF wants to change the discussion from performance enhancement to a technical or medical peculiarity. After Blodracet it was the Hemocue measuring device, after Sundby it was the Nebulizer. They have been succesful in that tactic in the past, and this time they've outdone themselves. Everyone's talking about that damn cream!

No matter the media, the reporter, the commenter, the official, the doctor: that cream just drowns out any discussion about the benefits for Johaug in taking steroids. What kind of performance enhancement could be expected for that light, intense skier (it has been discussed earlier in this thread, to its credit!). NSF has done a tremendous job in making that entire discussion disappear under a layer of cream.

It is a well constructed lie and public relations tactic, unfortunately they forgot to image google the cream. Or maybe they did image google the cream and thought it still was the best lie. No problem!

Yes, it is important not to get to hung up on the technicalities. To me, it is the way this (and the Sundby case) is being handled that speaks volumes and which needs to be focused on. So far the Norwegian press has followed script and nobody wants to rock the boat but I believe we are only one little step from someone peeling off that layer of teflon. The cracks are there at last and it won't be easy to cover them.

 

[python]

dont confuse a missed test with the refusal to take a test. up to 3 missed tests could, as suspicious as it might be, cause no an adrv while running away from a dco in full sight is an instant test failure.

i dont agree ALL norwegian media's following the script. i learned quite a few interesting details and unpleasant (for a norge fanboy) facts reading vg.no, tv2, aftenposten...the sundby coverage turned more than critical. the nrk stands as a cheer leader of notice...my problem is with the uniform chorus i hear from the national team staff, from nsf. no resignations tells a lot about the secretive sect they formed.

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

"

So it looks like there's proof that the team doc did buy Trofodermin on september 3rd. Will Johaug avoid a 4 year suspension if their story is accepted?

john, have you had a chance to read the thread up..? i posted a copy of the alleged receipt way back. page up. the source, and i may be off somewhat here, was a reprint of a vg photo. the presence of a purchase receipt is subject to a forensic verification. very much so. that is, was it a genuine purchase or a ...bribe / was the sept 3 norwegian purchase one of a kind at a given time or there was evidence (mind you, cash would be the king) of a norge dealing with the store before ?

what we get to read now in the norge msm is probably a mix btwn the real investigative journalism and the attempts to 'conduit' the official story. the precedence of secretiveness of the sundby case should still matter...

I didn't care about the alleged receipt, since there was nothing tying it to Bendiksen. It could have been purchased by anyone. But now VG claims there's proof confirming his account since he bought trofodermin with his credit card.

So what was NSF's original defense? That he bought that on a particular day and that the steroid wasn't in the body as long as it was or what?

Bendiksen bought Trofodermin on sep 3 and Johaug used it from sep 4-15 before testing positive on sep 16.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

"

So it looks like there's proof that the team doc did buy Trofodermin on september 3rd. Will Johaug avoid a 4 year suspension if their story is accepted?

john, have you had a chance to read the thread up..? i posted a copy of the alleged receipt way back. page up. the source, and i may be off somewhat here, was a reprint of a vg photo. the presence of a purchase receipt is subject to a forensic verification. very much so. that is, was it a genuine purchase or a ...bribe / was the sept 3 norwegian purchase one of a kind at a given time or there was evidence (mind you, cash would be the king) of a norge dealing with the store before ?

what we get to read now in the norge msm is probably a mix btwn the real investigative journalism and the attempts to 'conduit' the official story. the precedence of secretiveness of the sundby case should still matter...

I didn't care about the alleged receipt, since there was nothing tying it to Bendiksen. It could have been purchased by anyone. But now VG claims there's proof confirming his account since he bought trofodermin with his credit card.

So what was NSF's original defense? That he bought that on a particular day and that the steroid wasn't in the body as long as it was or what?

Bendiksen bought Trofodermin on sep 3 and Johaug used it from sep 4-15 before testing positive on sep 16.

Two things bothers.
1. When Norwegian media went to the pharmacia (or health food store) and asked about the purchase, the staff claimed that the only Trofodermin sold on that day was paid in cash.
2. Why on earth did Bendiksen wait so long to treat Johaugs lips especially since Lofshus claims she was in deep pain, couldn't sleep and hardly eat? Bendiksen flew down to Italy on her request but that was four days after her phone call. He forgot to bring her medication. He came down on the 1st, sat down with Johaug at breakfast on the 2nd but didn't fix any medication for her until the next day. It simply doesn't make sense whatsoever.

 

[Discgear]

Is this a valid scenario?

Johaug said that she had a planned meeting with Antidoping Norge the 16th of september, can't find the article now. Was it in the press conference? Anyhow, the 16th was the day when ADN took the out of competition test. Could it be that Johaug was informed of the upcoming test on the 27th of August, the same day when she phoned Bendiksen? The Phone call was about her being juiced on Clostebol and worried about the upcoming test. Plenty of time to get blisters on the lips, and putting the Trofodermin rescue plan in play if she was going to fail the test. She would have plenty of pressure and heat to put on Bendiksen to take the blaim, if he was involved in doping her earlier. For him stupidness must have been seen as a better option than being accused of outright doping.

Speculative? Yes? Unrealistic? Well not as much as the official version.

 

[Lyon]

Re:

i dont agree ALL norwegian media's following the script. i learned quite a few interesting details and unpleasant (for a norge fanboy) facts reading vg.no, tv2, aftenposten...the sundby coverage turned more than critical. the nrk stands as a cheer leader of notice...my problem is with the uniform chorus i hear from the national team staff, from nsf. no resignations tells a lot about the secretive sect they formed.

You are right that the mentioned media where more critical during the Sundby case than what could be feared. I am hoping that when the noise surrounding the current case dies down that some media will start questioning the attitudes and practices within the Norwegian Skiing Federation much more thoroughly. There is bound to be people who are willing to talk, as we saw during the Sundby case.

Some heads will undoubtedly roll in the next few weeks but the skiing federation shouldn't be allowed to get away that easily.

 

[meat puppet]

Re:

Is this a valid scenario?

Johaug said that she had a planned meeting with Antidoping Norge the 16th of september, can't find the article now. Was it in the press conference? Anyhow, the 16th was the day when ADN took the out of competition test. Could it be that Johaug was informed of the upcoming test on the 27th of August, the same day when she phoned Bendiksen? The Phone call was about her being juiced on Clostebol and worried about the upcoming test. Plenty of time to get blisters on the lips, and putting the Trofodermin rescue plan in play if she was going to fail the test. She would have plenty of pressure and heat to put on Bendiksen to take the blaim, if he was involved in doping her earlier. For him stupidness must have been seen as a better option than being accused of outright doping.

Speculative? Yes? Unrealistic? Well not as much as the official version.

Even if this particular scenario is not what actually took place, i think something similar is the best bet there is. I mean, with the doping label on the Cream, they knew what a shitestorm would follow... Still they went for it.

I find an honest mistake really hard to fathom, as things dont add up with that story.

 

[Tubeless]

Re:

Is this a valid scenario?

Johaug said that she had a planned meeting with Antidoping Norge the 16th of september, can't find the article now. Was it in the press conference? Anyhow, the 16th was the day when ADN took the out of competition test. Could it be that Johaug was informed of the upcoming test on the 27th of August, the same day when she phoned Bendiksen? The Phone call was about her being juiced on Clostebol and worried about the upcoming test. Plenty of time to get blisters on the lips, and putting the Trofodermin rescue plan in play if she was going to fail the test. She would have plenty of pressure and heat to put on Bendiksen to take the blaim, if he was involved in doping her earlier. For him stupidness must have been seen as a better option than being accused of outright doping.

Speculative? Yes? Unrealistic? Well not as much as the official version.

That fits the narrative long suspected by other nations - that anti-doping in Norway exists to prevent positive tests from being aired publicly, protecting Norway's reputation as a "clean sports" nation. All it takes is someone at ADN tipping the ski federation that a test is scheduled soon.

This may be the first-ever doping positive for a Norwegian skier, on a test conducted by ADN? The Sundby positive came from testing done by FIS in a world cup race.

What went wrong? One possibility is that the team doctors were unaware that a new test for Clostebol had become available in 2016 - which made it possible to detect use up to 30 days of last application. Reference can be found in this article:

http://www.ironmagazine.com/2016/clostebol-explained/

Once a sample has been taken and sent to a WADA-accredited lab (in Cologne, Germany?), a positive finding can no longer be hidden away. Norway tried that in the Sundby case and got burned by WADA. This time they had to publish the finding as it came out.

The admission by Johaug's own lawyer that she was not tested at all during the summer months adds to the lack of credibility by the testing regime in Norway. The undisputed #1 in women's skiing not subject to a single test for over 4 months?

The cover story about lip cream is falling apart from all angles. This looks like the doctors were indeed at fault, but rather as a miscalculation of how long traces of Clostebol use will remain detectable.

 

[Blaaswix]

Finnish langrenn lols: Lidl are giving away a free lip salve with Norwegian smoked salmon.
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Matvarekjede-haner-Johaug-i-finsk-annonse-844417_1.snd

 

[Cloxxki]

So ADNO has a bit of a monopoly on testing the skiers, but can'y make sure an incompetent lab does the analysis?
Or could others decide to test if they pleased, and then, just not?

All this talk about receipts...is it about a receipt at all? Doc didn't arrange a TUE for the steroid, steroid in body, both doc and athlete failed to read the label, check out ingredients (by there time line, plenty of time), and then failed. Well worth a 2-4 year holiday. They've been handed out for less. But, those were not world cup winners...

Seems ADNO deserves a thorough WADA audit. Perhaps not worth their licence?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

So ADNO has a bit of amonopoly on testing the skiers, but can'y make sure an incompetent lab does the analysis?
Or could others decide to test if they pleased, and then, just not?

All this talk about receipts...is it about a receipt at all? Doc didn't arrange a TUE for the steroid, steroid in body, both doc and athlete failed to read the label, check out ingredients (by there time line, plenty of time), and then failed. Well worth a 2-4 year holiday. They've been handed out for less. But, those were not world cup winners...

Seems ADNO deserves a thorough WADA audit. Perhaps not worth their licence?

Considering Johaug hadn't been tested since May 10, maybe there is something to that.

 

[Tubeless]

Just to clarify one thing about testing.

Unlike UCI which has a much bigger budget for doping tests, FIS does testing only at a world cups and world champs, and only a few races each season. The reason for such infrequent testing is simply money - a complete menu of doping tests can run up to 30,000 Euros per event.

Off-season testing and testing in between world cups is the responsibility of the country's own anti-doping organization - such as ADN in Norway. While it's technically possible for ADN to conduct testing outside of Norway (or contract another country's anti-doping org to do the testing), this is extremely rare.

Which means athletes are safe from being tested while training away from home, such as the glacier camp in Livingo, Italy where Johaug got her lips & likely the rest of her skiing career burned.

However, from other nations' perspective, it's inexcusable that Norway - which has the best skiers and arguably the most funding for sports, would not test its own star athlete at home for over 4 months.

 

[Discgear]

Pretty sensational stuff tonight. On SVT debate program Opinion, journalist Lasse Anrell asked for Norway being banned from international skiing for two years due to what’s come out surrounding medication of healthy skiers. Journalist Hasse Svens – the guy behind Blodracet documentary – said the he doesn’t believe Johaug and the official version at all. He said that during the work with Blodracet when going through 1000s of blood samples, it indeed indicated stated-sponsored doping in Norway during the 1990s and 2000s.

Then Vidar Lofshus outright lied. He claimed that the case against Johnsrud Sundby wasn’t about doping but about administration. And then, when Svens said it was indeed doping when he used doses 10 times the allowed, he laughed and claimed that was false and Johnsrud Sundby just used 70% of a normal dose. Then he returned to talk about that it was not at all a doping case and that the two months’ verdict was unjust since it was only technicalities concerning administration of allowed medication.
http://www.svtplay.se/video/10707527/opinion-live/opinion-live-sasong-2-20-okt-22-00

In the same time former skier Øystein Pettersen (left the national team in 2014) said in Aftenposten that it’s no secret that the second floor in the Norwegian Team ski wax trailer is used for inhaling asthma medication with nebulizers between the races. He said that he – despite not having asthma – used to be medicated after the prologues in sprint with Ventoline and Pulmicourt.

When asked why in the trailer:
Because it has electricity. And it doesn’t look god if the Nebulizer is at the stadium. It’s about the signal effect. It’s parts of elite sport that you don’t necessarily want to expose to children.
It’s nonsense to claim we don’t use it to enhance performance. But it is allowed.
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Norske-lopere-tar-medisiner-i-smoretraileren-under-skirenn-844605_1.snd

 

[BullsFan22]

Just to clarify one thing about testing.

Unlike UCI which has a much bigger budget for doping tests, FIS does testing only at a world cups and world champs, and only a few races each season. The reason for such infrequent testing is simply money - a complete menu of doping tests can run up to 30,000 Euros per event.

Off-season testing and testing in between world cups is the responsibility of the country's own anti-doping organization - such as ADN in Norway. While it's technically possible for ADN to conduct testing outside of Norway (or contract another country's anti-doping org to do the testing), this is extremely rare.

Which means athletes are safe from being tested while training away from home, such as the glacier camp in Livingo, Italy where Johaug got her lips & likely the rest of her skiing career burned.

However, from other nations' perspective, it's inexcusable that Norway - which has the best skiers and arguably the most funding for sports, would not test its own star athlete at home for over 4 months.

Good point. I know this may be a moot at this stage, but when real accusations started flying around the Russian skiers, particularly Legkov, in May, (also at times during the summer months), he mentioned how often he was tested, by whom and when. He had a big file folder (or whatever it was) with him to show the journalists. Now, I know that it doesn't mean much, whether he was telling the absolute truth or not, simply because, in my opinion, one way or another, the Russians will be penalized in the coming months. I don't doubt that at this stage. But for the sake of this discussion, even before the allegations of Sochi doping, Russians like Legkov were tested quite often. I imagine, since they were under closer regulation from WADA, it must have been a combination of WADA, RUSADA and perhaps other agencies. Since skiers like him spent the vast majority of their time outside Russia, I will tend to lean on believing those numbers. If I remember correctly, he mentioned the number of times he was tested prior and post Sochi. It was a decent number of times, to my amateur ears and eyes. The FIS general secretary, Sarah Lewis (I've mentioned this before here) confirmed those numbers.

So, in regards to Johaug, Sundby and other NSF sponsored athletes, perhaps they need to give the number of official anti-doping tests done in the past calendar year, or however far back they want to go. Let's see what FIS and WADA say and compare.

This is just my amateur perspective and opinion.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Shouldn't be too hard. Before the positive test, Johaug's previous recorded OOC test was 129 days earlier, on May 10. Now, in fairness Therese will likely have been tested a lot in-season, but as we all know, plenty can be done out of competition to then compete clean in competition while reaping the benefits. And the off-season is long in wintersport.

 

[John de Savage]

Maybe doc is dyslectic and thought he purchased a cortisone cream?

https://www.google.se/#q=clobetasol+

 

[BullsFan22]

Pretty sensational stuff tonight. On SVT debate program Opinion, journalist Lasse Anrell asked for Norway being banned from international skiing for two years due to what’s come out surrounding medication of healthy skiers. Journalist Hasse Svens – the guy behind Blodracet documentary – said the he doesn’t believe Johaug and the official version at all. He said that during the work with Blodracet when going through 1000s of blood samples, it indeed indicated stated-sponsored doping in Norway during the 1990s and 2000s.

Then Vidar Lofshus outright lied. He claimed that the case against Johnsrud Sundby wasn’t about doping but about administration. And then, when Svens said it was indeed doping when he used doses 10 times the allowed, he laughed and claimed that was false and Johnsrud Sundby just used 70% of a normal dose. Then he returned to talk about that it was not at all a doping case and that the two months’ verdict was unjust since it was only technicalities concerning administration of allowed medication.
http://www.svtplay.se/video/10707527/opinion-live/opinion-live-sasong-2-20-okt-22-00

In the same time former skier Øystein Pettersen (left the national team in 2014) said in Aftenposten that it’s no secret that the second floor in the Norwegian Team ski wax trailer is used for inhaling asthma medication with nebulizers between the races. He said that he – despite not having asthma – used to be medicated after the prologues in sprint with Ventoline and Pulmicourt.

When asked why in the trailer:
Because it has electricity. And it doesn’t look god if the Nebulizer is at the stadium. It’s about the signal effect. It’s parts of elite sport that you don’t necessarily want to expose to children.
It’s nonsense to claim we don’t use it to enhance performance. But it is allowed.
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Norske-lopere-tar-medisiner-i-smoretraileren-under-skirenn-844605_1.snd

This needs to go viral. I hope they get exposed massively and the ship goes down. For too long the Norwegians have lambasted the Russians, Finns, Italians, Poles, Germans....even Swedes(!!!) of doping or suspicious racing while doing the same or perhaps worse crap themselves. Tired of the holier-than-thou attitude that they exert out on the trails and everyone needs to bow down.

Good that it's the Swedes, the SVT and the man that made the documentary. This bogus 'grey area' manipulation needs to be exposed and stopped. If they want to ban the Russians, then they sure as heck need to ban the Norwegians if all these allegations are true, and since numerous current and former athletes on the NSF have spoken about using asthma meds even though they don't need them, then it needs to be investigated FULLY and something needs to happen.

I can see a simple, 'honest' mistake in inhaling a bit more than the prescribed limit, maybe twice, in a strung out period, but 10X as much??? And anabolic steroids for lip sores??

 

[python]

I can see a simple, 'honest' mistake in inhaling a bit more than the prescribed limit, maybe twice, in a strung out period, but 10X as much??? And anabolic steroids for lip sores??[

when i moved to nyc from europe almost 2 decades ago i befriended a local journo of notice...he taught me some lessons about my 'europen perceptions'..he'd say, 'if something was 97% true, it wasn't 100% true. drop the 100% true, report it, and you haven't legally speaking (his faved expression) done anything to get a call from a legal dept'.

get a clue, pls, 9x isn't 10x. and it was 9x per the cas award