Doping in XC skiing

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About the race in Nagano, Jonsson did profit from the fact that Daehlie started directly behind him and caught him early. Although he would probably not have managed to stay with him if he had not been in tremendous shape himself, so I think your point still stands.
 
roundabout said:
BullsFan22 said:
Discgear said:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!

Well, the campaign to ban Russians is purely political, nothing to do with 'fair play.' I very much doubt professional sports as a whole really care how much doping goes on and how it happens, as long as there is a ton of money to be made.

I haven't read the first or second McLaren report, but it's amusing that those athletes that spent the majority of their year, not just winter, in Europe, being regularly tested in and out of competition, are also, apparently involved. And only the samples from Sochi were tampered with? What about when Vylegzhanin won the skiathlon in Falun 2015, who tampered with his samples in Sweden? Or when Legkov won the Tour de Ski, the Holmenkollen 50 and almost won the overall WC (won the distance cup though) in 2013? Did anyone tamper with his tests after those titles? Or did the Russians only dope in Sochi? I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary from the Russians in Sochi. The men that medaled in the 50km were around for years, each having WC wins, world championship medals, TDS success, and significantly, at least Legkov and Chernousov, had been coached by foreigners since 2010.

And how will they provide proof of this happening or not happening? I am just curious. Is it from Rodchenkov? Are there others?
"I haven't read anything, but I have my mind made up. La-la-la."

Yeah? So what? I will not fall for some propaganda propagated by those that fund WADA. It's professional endurance sport at the highest level, what did you think was going to happen? Clean medal winners at the Olympics? The Russia bashing is purely political. I can't say the same for Norway, for example, and they are just as obvious.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
Oude Geuze said:
For women, its basically the same, except for a rather ugly period in the 90's with Larisa Lazutina, Jelena Wälbe and Manuela Di Centa (imo the biggest cheat to ever have gotten away in xc)
:razz: So when someone (possibly doper) beats Norwegians (possibly dopers), it's ugly, other way round it's nice I suppose.

Aren't you Norwegian? Go on, you are painting nice picture yourself.

P.S. I don't think your actions are helping Norwegians so far. More so the other way round.
I didn't once claim the Norwegians were clean. Bjørn Dæhlie famously slept in a low O2 chamber every night. EPO could well have been used. Just no evidence. The Norwegian team were all at Hb 17, right at the limit. They obviously got there somehow unless its just confirmation bias.
All I'm saying is that its natural that Norwegians will dominate xc skiing from a statistical perspective. If you think otherwise, please provide a rational.

And I havent painted once in my entire life, but my grandma does. :p
 
And evidence would presumably be a positive test, right?

Fwiw, Saltin documented a jump in medal winner hbs during the nineties. Quoting from memory from one of his conference ppts, in 1989 male medalists in wc had on average 15g/dl. In the nineties, no medals in wc were won under 17,5g/dl. The first figure is broadly in line with what happens to blood parameters under a severe training and competition regime. The second is not.

No amount of low o2 sleeping will explain the shift in my view. Especially when we know what many medal winners did.
 
Jan 3, 2016
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BullsFan22 said:
Looks like the Norwegian dopers, er, sorry, asthmatics I mean, are at it again.
We know that suspended athletes aren't supposed to get help from the national team, but are suspended athletes allowed to help their national team? http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/heidi-weng/flugstad-oestberg-fikk-johaug-tips-foer-hun-vant-i-davos/a/23869314/ The headline is Flugstad Østberg got tips from Johaug before she won in Davos. : " We talk a lot together, and she is supportive. Therese is very good at giving tips and support before I race".
 
Blaaswix said:
BullsFan22 said:
Looks like the Norwegian dopers, er, sorry, asthmatics I mean, are at it again.
We know that suspended athletes aren't supposed to get help from the national team, but are suspended athletes allowed to help their national team? http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/heidi-weng/flugstad-oestberg-fikk-johaug-tips-foer-hun-vant-i-davos/a/23869314/ The headline is Flugstad Østberg got tips from Johaug before she won in Davos. : " We talk a lot together, and she is supportive. Therese is very good at giving tips and support before I race".
Totally not allowed. From Wada Code:

No Athlete or other Person who has been declared Ineligible may, during the period of Ineligibility, participate in any capacity in a Competition or activity (other than authorized anti-doping education or rehabilitation programs) authorized or organized by any Signatory, Signatory’s member organization, or a club or other member organization of a Signatory’s member organization, or in Competitions authorized or organized by any professional league or any international- or national-level Event organization or any elite or national-level sporting activity funded by a governmental agency.
 
Østberg doesn't suggest that Therese is doing anything in any official capacity though. I think terms of suspension mean she can't be present at any of the races during her period of ineligibility, and is prohibited from taking on any official advisory or coaching position as well, but the suspension is only a sporting one, and as long as it's away from racing and official training she can't be prohibited from seeing or talking to her friends, therefore officially at least there's no reason for Ingvild not to call her up and say "hey Therese, how's it going back in Norway? Yea, Switzerland is lovely. I've got a race tomorrow" and there's no reason for Therese not to respond along the lines of "oh yea, Davos isn't it? Suggest you dose your efforts and make sure you're ahead of anybody you're skiing with on the section leading into the last couple of right-handers as a lot of time can be lost if you're behind someone who's gliding poorly there".

Is it a moral grey area for Therese to be giving tips and hints to her mates while she's banned? Sure. And if there's an unreasonable amount of contact between her and active athletes then the authorities might take notice. But unless she's actually doing this in any official capacity or being present at official team get-togethers or the races (Niels van den Driessche says hi) and isn't contravening the terms of her ban, she's not doing anything wrong per se. Valverde would go out on rides with his buddies like LuLu, Rojas, Barredo and co. during his ban too. Often in full Movistar gear, making him the most elite Fred of all time...
 
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Thanks for the answers, very informative. If a precedent has already been set in other cases, and it's not sporting participation, then there we are. It does look like pushing the boundaries though.
 
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-himlen-ar-bla-men-kanslan-ar-gra/
Interesting Swedish article on the legal problems with the Russian doping scandal. Here in reference to XC skiing in Davos, but the question of who gets punished is the topic and hard to define. Is it the people swapping samples or the athletes leaving doping samples? Or if the Sports Federation/Doping labs do it should they be punished? Lawyers are going to have a field day with who exactly is to be blamed. Every athelete tested could well say "I did not know about the sample swapping" and walk away scot-free.
 
Re:

Robert5091 said:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-himlen-ar-bla-men-kanslan-ar-gra/
Interesting Swedish article on the legal problems with the Russian doping scandal. Here in reference to XC skiing in Davos, but the question of who gets punished is the topic and hard to define. Is it the people swapping samples or the athletes leaving doping samples? Or if the Sports Federation/Doping labs do it should they be punished? Lawyers are going to have a field day with who exactly is to be blamed. Every athelete tested could well say "I did not know about the sample swapping" and walk away scot-free.

If it's proven that all these athletes were given steroids mixed in with 'cocktail.' it will be interesting to hear their reactions. Whoever is behind the 'independent' investigation has to have all the facts and figures lock stock and barrel, otherwise they are in for some serious court time.

If, for example, they were doping via steroids and cocktail mixed...stuff... but somehow the athletes were not involved in the conspiracy, meaning they were manipulated by Rodchenkov and whoever else was involved (FSB, staff, etc), will they (the athletes) have any legs to stand on if they sue, as Legkov said he might if need be?

Personally, i say it was more micro-dosing rather than cocktail steroids. That just seems to be a nice Hollywood touch to it.

Whatever happened to allegations of xenon? Was that in the report? People were whining and moaning about that prior to and after the Olympics.

The Norwegians were whining and moaning about how the Russian athletes went 'one way' and everyone else 'the other way' for testing. Was that in the report?
 
Re: Re:

John de Savage said:
Walkman said:
Robert5091 said:
... and not one single Swede amongst them.
This is to be expected. The data show that the Swedes were probably clean during the 80's and 90's.
What data is that? The blood data from Lahti 1997 when the swedish men had higher Hb values than the norwegian men? With Håland at 17.5 and Forsberg at 16.5?
Link or reference to that statement of yours?

John de Savage said:
Or the article that supposedly reveals peak and median Hb values for swedish skiers from 1993-2001, yet leaves out Håland's and Jonsson's 17.X values and thus cannot be trusted? The same article that claimed norwegian values from the same time period were virtually identical to the swedish ones?
Link or reference to that aritcle you're referring to? Here is a published list over mean values for the Swedish male team in the 90s and remember they had the freak high Niklas Jonsson on the team:
Year, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak

93–94 (n=7) 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6
94–95 (n=7) 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2
95–96 (n=8) 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2
96–97 (n=10) 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2
97–98 (n=8) 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1
98–99 (n=12) 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5
99–00 (n=11) 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1
00–01 (n=13) 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7


John de Savage said:
Sweden were the top nation (men) in the 80's when finns, italians and russians were blood doped at the worlds and olympics. In particular the 1987-1991 period was amazing for swedish XC skiing.
Yes it was. However, there is a study about XC-skiing in the 80s and their mean values are in fact lower than the average man. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280
Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996.

John de Savage said:
Torgny Mogren won a gold medal in dominant fashion in 1993. That's definitely post EPO.

1 MOGREN Torgny SWE 2:03:36.8
2 BALLAND Herve FRA +54.1
3 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:33.5
Torgny Mogren was a very good skater, as were most of the swedes, that is actually one major explanation to the Swedish success in the late 80s. American Bill Koch invented the technique but the Swedes were early adopters. I think Mogrens performance was a lucky shot, a single occurrence.

This video is very revealing both in terms of glide and technique from WC Falun 1993, the last individual medal for the Swedes in the 90s (except Ordinas bronze in 1995 which was probably fishy). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi4tscwk9P0
I’ve made time marks, it's from the same section of the race so you could look at the glide and the technique.
Mogren 2,02 (66)
De Zolt (67) 5.20
Smirnov (69) 5,55
Dählie (78) Ulvang (77) and Mühlegg (75) 8.00
This clip is before the last lap when Dählie is still in the lead and most skiers don’t show much fatigue, so I guess it’s a quite fair example of both glide and skating technique


John de Savage said:
Ordina managed to medal at what is quite possibly the dirtiest event in XC skiing history, the 1995 worlds in Thunder Bay.

1 VAELBE Elena RUS 1:16:27.3
2 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +13.2
3 ORDINA Antonina SWE +31.3
4 DANILOVA Olga RUS +39.3
5 LAZUTINA Larissa RUS +48.4
6 GAVRIILJUK Nina RUS +1:33.9
7 NILSEN Elin NOR +2:08.3
Yes, Ordina was fishy. Became Swedish citizen in 1994 and managed to get an individual bronze for Sweden in Thunder bay and also played a mayor role in the relay bronze, though beaten by the Norwegians. :)

John de Savage said:
Three guys in the top 8 at the same worlds.

1 FAUNER Silvio ITA 1:56:36.0
2 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:12.5
3 SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ +1:34.7
4 VANZETTA Giorgio ITA +2:15.6
5 FORSBERG Henrik[ SWE +2:38.2
6 GUTIERREZ Juan J. ESP +2:59.0
7 MOGREN Torgny SWE +3:07.7
8 BERGSTROEM Anders SWE +3:21.0
Don't really get your point here. The Swedes minutes behind the clean Norwegian with a visible inferior technique?

John de Savage said:
Jonsson won olympic silver in Nagano (1998).

1 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 2:05:08.2
2 JONSSON Niklas SWE +8.1
3 HOFFMANN Christian AUT +53.6
Did you see that 50k race? Jonsson got this medal because of Dählie. Dählie started 30s behind Jonsson and got him quite fast. Jonsson was able to ski behind Dählie for more than 30 km in heavy snow fall. Dählie plowed through the snow and Jonsson had a much more convenient race and passed Dählie in the end. Jonsson had high blood values throughout his whole career. In the Bloodracet documentary they tested a Niklas Jonsson now well over 40 and working in a bank. His HB-values were way over 170. He was a freak by nature. But of course you are aware of this. Lars Håland though didn't come out to good in the documentary. Can't remember what kind of values he was accused of though.
John de Savage said:
And followed it up with a 4th place in Ramsau (1999).

1 MYLLYLAE Mika FIN
2 VEERPALU Andrus EST +31.8
3 BOTVINOV Michail AUT +1:43.6
4 JONSSON Niklas SWE +2:26.9
Once again, what's your point? Minutes after known dopers.
 
Re: Re:

Discgear said:
John de Savage said:
Walkman said:
Robert5091 said:
... and not one single Swede amongst them.
This is to be expected. The data show that the Swedes were probably clean during the 80's and 90's.
What data is that? The blood data from Lahti 1997 when the swedish men had higher Hb values than the norwegian men? With Håland at 17.5 and Forsberg at 16.5?
Link or reference to that statement of yours?

John de Savage said:
Or the article that supposedly reveals peak and median Hb values for swedish skiers from 1993-2001, yet leaves out Håland's and Jonsson's 17.X values and thus cannot be trusted? The same article that claimed norwegian values from the same time period were virtually identical to the swedish ones?
Link or reference to that aritcle you're referring to? Here is a published list over mean values for the Swedish male team in the 90s and remember they had the freak high Niklas Jonsson on the team:
Year, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak

93–94 (n=7) 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6
94–95 (n=7) 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2
95–96 (n=8) 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2
96–97 (n=10) 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2
97–98 (n=8) 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1
98–99 (n=12) 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5
99–00 (n=11) 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1
00–01 (n=13) 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7


John de Savage said:
Sweden were the top nation (men) in the 80's when finns, italians and russians were blood doped at the worlds and olympics. In particular the 1987-1991 period was amazing for swedish XC skiing.
Yes it was. However, there is a study about XC-skiing in the 80s and their mean values are in fact lower than the average man. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280
Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996.

John de Savage said:
Torgny Mogren won a gold medal in dominant fashion in 1993. That's definitely post EPO.

1 MOGREN Torgny SWE 2:03:36.8
2 BALLAND Herve FRA +54.1
3 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:33.5
Torgny Mogren was a very good skater, as were most of the swedes, that is actually one major explanation to the Swedish success in the late 80s. American Bill Koch invented the technique but the Swedes were early adopters. I think Mogrens performance was a lucky shot, a single occurrence.

This video is very revealing both in terms of glide and technique from WC Falun 1993, the last individual medal for the Swedes in the 90s (except Ordinas bronze in 1995 which was probably fishy). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi4tscwk9P0
I’ve made time marks, it's from the same section of the race so you could look at the glide and the technique.
Mogren 2,02 (66)
De Zolt (67) 5.20
Smirnov (69) 5,55
Dählie (78) Ulvang (77) and Mühlegg (75) 8.00
This clip is before the last lap when Dählie is still in the lead and most skiers don’t show much fatigue, so I guess it’s a quite fair example of both glide and skating technique


John de Savage said:
Ordina managed to medal at what is quite possibly the dirtiest event in XC skiing history, the 1995 worlds in Thunder Bay.

1 VAELBE Elena RUS 1:16:27.3
2 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +13.2
3 ORDINA Antonina SWE +31.3
4 DANILOVA Olga RUS +39.3
5 LAZUTINA Larissa RUS +48.4
6 GAVRIILJUK Nina RUS +1:33.9
7 NILSEN Elin NOR +2:08.3
Yes, Ordina was fishy. Became Swedish citizen in 1994 and managed to get an individual bronze for Sweden in Thunder bay and also played a mayor role in the relay bronze, though beaten by the Norwegians. :)

John de Savage said:
Three guys in the top 8 at the same worlds.

1 FAUNER Silvio ITA 1:56:36.0
2 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:12.5
3 SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ +1:34.7
4 VANZETTA Giorgio ITA +2:15.6
5 FORSBERG Henrik[ SWE +2:38.2
6 GUTIERREZ Juan J. ESP +2:59.0
7 MOGREN Torgny SWE +3:07.7
8 BERGSTROEM Anders SWE +3:21.0
Don't really get your point here. The Swedes minutes behind the clean Norwegian with a visible inferior technique?

John de Savage said:
Jonsson won olympic silver in Nagano (1998).

1 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 2:05:08.2
2 JONSSON Niklas SWE +8.1
3 HOFFMANN Christian AUT +53.6
Did you see that 50k race? Jonsson got this medal because of Dählie. Dählie started 30s behind Jonsson and got him quite fast. Jonsson was able to ski behind Dählie for more than 30 km in heavy snow fall. Dählie plowed through the snow and Jonsson had a much more convenient race and passed Dählie in the end. Jonsson had high blood values throughout his whole career. In the Bloodracet documentary they tested a Niklas Jonsson now well over 40 and working in a bank. His HB-values were way over 170. He was a freak by nature. But of course you are aware of this. Lars Håland though didn't come out to good in the documentary. Can't remember what kind of values he was accused of though.
John de Savage said:
And followed it up with a 4th place in Ramsau (1999).

1 MYLLYLAE Mika FIN
2 VEERPALU Andrus EST +31.8
3 BOTVINOV Michail AUT +1:43.6
4 JONSSON Niklas SWE +2:26.9
Once again, what's your point? Minutes after known dopers.
 
Nov 15, 2015
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Re: Re:

Discgear said:
Link or reference to that statement of yours?
Leaked blood data from the WC in Lahti 1997 given to SVT by Kyrö. Håland's 17.5 - mentioned in 'Blodracet' documentary. Forsberg's 16.5 - mentioned in Expressen article. One norwegian had a 16.5 Hb. I think it was Ulvang but not sure.

Discgear said:
Link or reference to that aritcle you're referring to? Here is a published list over mean values for the Swedish male team in the 90s and remember they had the freak high Niklas Jonsson on the team:
Year, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak

93–94 (n=7) 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6
94–95 (n=7) 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2
95–96 (n=8) 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2
96–97 (n=10) 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2
97–98 (n=8) 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1
98–99 (n=12) 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5
99–00 (n=11) 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1
00–01 (n=13) 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7
That's the bogus data from the article I had in mind. Where's Håland's and Jonsson's +17 values? Nowhere to be found! So the data is incomplete. The peak values (which you forgot to include, btw) are inaccurate. We have proof that it leaves out some damning values.

The authors of the article stated: "Vi har också tillgång till motsvarande värden på norska längdskidåkare, som i stort sett visar motsvarande värden som de svenska... Inget talar för att svenska (och norska) skidlöpare skulle
vara hematologiskt dopade vid VM i Lahtis 2001 eller under de tio senaste säsongerna."


How are you going to explain that? They were fed cherry picked data by the dirty norwegians but not by the upstanding swedes, even though we have proof that the peak values are BS?

Discgear said:
Yes it was. However, there is a study about XC-skiing in the 80s and their mean values are in fact lower than the average man. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280
Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996.
Irrelevant point to obfuscate the fact that at least 3 of the top nations were on blood bags in the most important events.

Discgear said:
Torgny Mogren was a very good skater, as were most of the swedes, that is actually one major explanation to the Swedish success in the late 80s. American Bill Koch invented the technique but the Swedes were early adopters. I think Mogrens performance was a lucky shot, a single occurrence.
And you're free to believe Mogren was clean as snow. Just like Tore Bear is free to believe Daehlie never took EPO.

Discgear said:
This video is very revealing both in terms of glide and technique from WC Falun 1993, the last individual medal for the Swedes in the 90s (except Ordinas bronze in 1995 which was probably fishy). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi4tscwk9P0
I’ve made time marks, it's from the same section of the race so you could look at the glide and the technique.
Mogren 2,02 (66)
De Zolt (67) 5.20
Smirnov (69) 5,55
Dählie (78) Ulvang (77) and Mühlegg (75) 8.00
This clip is before the last lap when Dählie is still in the lead and most skiers don’t show much fatigue, so I guess it’s a quite fair example of both glide and skating technique
Yes, ski prep and technique! The same reason Norway could compete with the dopers of the 90's.

Discgear said:
Yes, Ordina was fishy. Became Swedish citizen in 1994 and managed to get an individual bronze for Sweden in Thunder bay and also played a mayor role in the relay bronze, though beaten by the Norwegians. :)
Yes, she was an immigrant. That explains it.

Discgear said:
Don't really get your point here. The Swedes minutes behind the clean Norwegian with a visible inferior technique?
Discgear said:
Once again, what's your point? Minutes after known dopers.
Right, only 3-4 skiers doped in the 90's. The swedes did not beat 95% of massive EPO-dopers. Just a few bad appples really.

Discgear said:
Did you see that 50k race? Jonsson got this medal because of Dählie. Dählie started 30s behind Jonsson and got him quite fast. Jonsson was able to ski behind Dählie for more than 30 km in heavy snow fall. Dählie plowed through the snow and Jonsson had a much more convenient race and passed Dählie in the end. Jonsson had high blood values throughout his whole career. In the Bloodracet documentary they tested a Niklas Jonsson now well over 40 and working in a bank. His HB-values were way over 170. He was a freak by nature. But of course you are aware of this. Lars Håland though didn't come out to good in the documentary. Can't remember what kind of values he was accused of though.
Is there a significant correlation between Hb concentration and performance in undoped subjects?
 
Jul 15, 2012
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Re: Re:

John de Savage said:
...
They were fed cherry picked data by the dirty norwegians but not by the upstanding swedes, even though we have proof that the peak values are BS?
...
Is there a significant correlation between Hb concentration and performance in undoped subjects?
Ummm... the elephant in the room is not blood values or suspicious swedes.

Is that what's bothering you regarding the 90's? That some swedes might have been dirty too.

How about adressing the glaring facts, who was winning over whom?
Repeatedly. Like a broken record.

Exercise: try to imagine a clean cyclist, say Edvald B H, winning big races like Milan San Remo or LBL, every year from 1992 through 1999.
Try.
 
Re: Re:

John de Savage said:
Discgear said:
Link or reference to that aritcle you're referring to? Here is a published list over mean values for the Swedish male team in the 90s and remember they had the freak high Niklas Jonsson on the team:
Year, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak

93–94 (n=7) 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6
94–95 (n=7) 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2
95–96 (n=8) 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2
96–97 (n=10) 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2
97–98 (n=8) 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1
98–99 (n=12) 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5
99–00 (n=11) 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1
00–01 (n=13) 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7
That's the bogus data from the article I had in mind. Where's Håland's and Jonsson's +17 values? Nowhere to be found! So the data is incomplete. The peak values (which you forgot to include, btw) are inaccurate. We have proof that it leaves out some damning values.

The authors of the article stated: "Vi har också tillgång till motsvarande värden på norska längdskidåkare, som i stort sett visar motsvarande värden som de svenska... Inget talar för att svenska (och norska) skidlöpare skulle
vara hematologiskt dopade vid VM i Lahtis 2001 eller under de tio senaste säsongerna."


How are you going to explain that? They were fed cherry picked data by the dirty norwegians but not by the upstanding swedes, even though we have proof that the peak values are BS?
Is there any other personal data in the article you're referring to? In the article I quoted it's only mean values. You can't just claim it's cherry picked or bogus without any references.

Discgear said:
Yes it was. However, there is a study about XC-skiing in the 80s and their mean values are in fact lower than the average man. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280
Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996.
John de Savage said:
Irrelevant point to obfuscate the fact that at least 3 of the top nations were on blood bags in the most important events.
Another claim of you without reference. Which 3 top nations were on blood bags during Swedens best years 1987-1991? It was your original claim I did adress with a scientific study that showed blood values started to go high in an obvious way from 1994 (Lillehammer).
Discgear said:
Torgny Mogren was a very good skater, as were most of the swedes, that is actually one major explanation to the Swedish success in the late 80s. American Bill Koch invented the technique but the Swedes were early adopters. I think Mogrens performance was a lucky shot, a single occurrence.
John de Savage said:
And you're free to believe Mogren was clean as snow. Just like Tore Bear is free to believe Daehlie never took EPO.
Well, Mogren was the Alsgaard of his time in terms of splendid technique. However Mogren got nada in championships after 1993. So what is your opinion about the clips I referred to below?
Discgear said:
This video is very revealing both in terms of glide and technique from WC Falun 1993, the last individual medal for the Swedes in the 90s (except Ordinas bronze in 1995 which was probably fishy). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi4tscwk9P0
I’ve made time marks, it's from the same section of the race so you could look at the glide and the technique.
Mogren 2,02 (66)
De Zolt (67) 5.20
Smirnov (69) 5,55
Dählie (78) Ulvang (77) and Mühlegg (75) 8.00
This clip is before the last lap when Dählie is still in the lead and most skiers don’t show much fatigue, so I guess it’s a quite fair example of both glide and skating technique
John de Savage said:
Yes, ski prep and technique! The same reason Norway could compete with the dopers of the 90's.
The stone grinding is properly debunked earlier in the thread. It was common use in other nations from the late 80s. Sweden got nothing after 1994. Norway exploded.You're not serious in your argumentation, are you?
Discgear said:
Yes, Ordina was fishy. Became Swedish citizen in 1994 and managed to get an individual bronze for Sweden in Thunder bay and also played a mayor role in the relay bronze, though beaten by the Norwegians. :)
John de Savage said:
Yes, she was an immigrant. That explains it.
Yes, she was an immigrant. I don't get your point? I think her skiing in Thunder Bay was fishy, period.
Discgear said:
Don't really get your point here. The Swedes minutes behind the clean Norwegian with a visible inferior technique?
John de Savage said:
Right, only 3-4 skiers doped in the 90's. The swedes did not beat 95% of massive EPO-dopers. Just a few bad appples really.
??? It was you who gave those examples. The top Swedish skiers in your example races were several minutes from the podium, and that is your proof of Swedes being juiced?
Discgear said:
Did you see that 50k race? Jonsson got this medal because of Dählie. Dählie started 30s behind Jonsson and got him quite fast. Jonsson was able to ski behind Dählie for more than 30 km in heavy snow fall. Dählie plowed through the snow and Jonsson had a much more convenient race and passed Dählie in the end. Jonsson had high blood values throughout his whole career. In the Bloodracet documentary they tested a Niklas Jonsson now well over 40 and working in a bank. His HB-values were way over 170. He was a freak by nature. But of course you are aware of this. Lars Håland though didn't come out to good in the documentary. Can't remember what kind of values he was accused of though.
John de Savage said:
Is there a significant correlation between Hb concentration and performance in undoped subjects?
?????
 
Re: Re:

Discgear said:
John de Savage said:
Walkman said:
Robert5091 said:
... and not one single Swede amongst them.
This is to be expected. The data show that the Swedes were probably clean during the 80's and 90's.
What data is that? The blood data from Lahti 1997 when the swedish men had higher Hb values than the norwegian men? With Håland at 17.5 and Forsberg at 16.5?
Link or reference to that statement of yours?

John de Savage said:
Or the article that supposedly reveals peak and median Hb values for swedish skiers from 1993-2001, yet leaves out Håland's and Jonsson's 17.X values and thus cannot be trusted? The same article that claimed norwegian values from the same time period were virtually identical to the swedish ones?
Link or reference to that aritcle you're referring to? Here is a published list over mean values for the Swedish male team in the 90s and remember they had the freak high Niklas Jonsson on the team:
Year, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak

93–94 (n=7) 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6
94–95 (n=7) 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2
95–96 (n=8) 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2
96–97 (n=10) 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2
97–98 (n=8) 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1
98–99 (n=12) 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5
99–00 (n=11) 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1
00–01 (n=13) 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7


John de Savage said:
Sweden were the top nation (men) in the 80's when finns, italians and russians were blood doped at the worlds and olympics. In particular the 1987-1991 period was amazing for swedish XC skiing.
Yes it was. However, there is a study about XC-skiing in the 80s and their mean values are in fact lower than the average man. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280
Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996.

John de Savage said:
Torgny Mogren won a gold medal in dominant fashion in 1993. That's definitely post EPO.

1 MOGREN Torgny SWE 2:03:36.8
2 BALLAND Herve FRA +54.1
3 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:33.5
Torgny Mogren was a very good skater, as were most of the swedes, that is actually one major explanation to the Swedish success in the late 80s. American Bill Koch invented the technique but the Swedes were early adopters. I think Mogrens performance was a lucky shot, a single occurrence.

This video is very revealing both in terms of glide and technique from WC Falun 1993, the last individual medal for the Swedes in the 90s (except Ordinas bronze in 1995 which was probably fishy). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi4tscwk9P0
I’ve made time marks, it's from the same section of the race so you could look at the glide and the technique.
Mogren 2,02 (66)
De Zolt (67) 5.20
Smirnov (69) 5,55
Dählie (78) Ulvang (77) and Mühlegg (75) 8.00
This clip is before the last lap when Dählie is still in the lead and most skiers don’t show much fatigue, so I guess it’s a quite fair example of both glide and skating technique


John de Savage said:
Ordina managed to medal at what is quite possibly the dirtiest event in XC skiing history, the 1995 worlds in Thunder Bay.

1 VAELBE Elena RUS 1:16:27.3
2 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +13.2
3 ORDINA Antonina SWE +31.3
4 DANILOVA Olga RUS +39.3
5 LAZUTINA Larissa RUS +48.4
6 GAVRIILJUK Nina RUS +1:33.9
7 NILSEN Elin NOR +2:08.3
Yes, Ordina was fishy. Became Swedish citizen in 1994 and managed to get an individual bronze for Sweden in Thunder bay and also played a mayor role in the relay bronze, though beaten by the Norwegians. :)

John de Savage said:
Three guys in the top 8 at the same worlds.

1 FAUNER Silvio ITA 1:56:36.0
2 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:12.5
3 SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ +1:34.7
4 VANZETTA Giorgio ITA +2:15.6
5 FORSBERG Henrik[ SWE +2:38.2
6 GUTIERREZ Juan J. ESP +2:59.0
7 MOGREN Torgny SWE +3:07.7
8 BERGSTROEM Anders SWE +3:21.0
Don't really get your point here. The Swedes minutes behind the clean Norwegian with a visible inferior technique?

John de Savage said:
Jonsson won olympic silver in Nagano (1998).

1 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 2:05:08.2
2 JONSSON Niklas SWE +8.1
3 HOFFMANN Christian AUT +53.6
Did you see that 50k race? Jonsson got this medal because of Dählie. Dählie started 30s behind Jonsson and got him quite fast. Jonsson was able to ski behind Dählie for more than 30 km in heavy snow fall. Dählie plowed through the snow and Jonsson had a much more convenient race and passed Dählie in the end. Jonsson had high blood values throughout his whole career. In the Bloodracet documentary they tested a Niklas Jonsson now well over 40 and working in a bank. His HB-values were way over 170. He was a freak by nature. But of course you are aware of this. Lars Håland though didn't come out to good in the documentary. Can't remember what kind of values he was accused of though.
John de Savage said:
And followed it up with a 4th place in Ramsau (1999).

1 MYLLYLAE Mika FIN
2 VEERPALU Andrus EST +31.8
3 BOTVINOV Michail AUT +1:43.6
4 JONSSON Niklas SWE +2:26.9
Once again, what's your point? Minutes after known dopers.

Not to be a stickler, but the 50km in Nagano was not under heavy snowfall. It was very warm conditions, very sloppy, chopped up, slow snow. The top seed all started early due to the warming conditions. Ironically (or maybe not), the top three in the race were bibs 1, 2, and 3. Joensson who finished 2nd was bib #1, Daehlie who won was bib #2, and Hoffman who finished was #3. Hoffman started fast, too fast. He caught BOTH Daehlie and Joensson at about halfway and they skied together for a bit before Hoffman started dropping back. Piller Cottrer started fast too, and was in contention for much of the race before he fell on one of the technical downhills (in those conditions and with those tough downhills, plus fatigue and pressure of competing for a medal, I can't really fault him). Alexey Prokurorov, the legendary Russian, started in the 60's and finished fourth also had a very impressive race. I reckon had he started with the top seed, he could gotten a medal. Not sure he ended up with that late start number but that's beside the point.
 
Mar 13, 2013
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OT: The 50km in Nagano is one of the most exciting 50km races i have ever seen. I guess it was, if you were rooting for any of the top contenders, not so much if you were rooting for someone stuck in the difficult conditions. It had so much drama and unexpected twists. Individual start… /OT
 
Nov 15, 2015
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Re: Re:

It's ridiculous to see normally cynical posters bend over backwards to defend Sweden as a bastion of clean sports. Steroid use was rampant in swedish athletics in the 70's and 80's, but there's just no way Gunde, Mogren, Wassberg et al conumed anything stronger than oatmeal.

Is there any other personal data in the article you're referring to? In the article I quoted it's only mean values. You can't just claim it's cherry picked or bogus without any references.
Not true. The data includes peak values for each season. You need to re-read the article.

Are you just going to ignore the claim by the authors that norwegian blood values in the 90's were perfectly normal? That doesn't hurt their credibility at all?

Another claim of you without reference. Which 3 top nations were on blood bags during Swedens best years 1987-1991? It was your original claim I did adress with a scientific study that showed blood values started to go high in an obvious way from 1994 (Lillehammer).
It is well known that Italy, Finland and Russia did blood bags at the time. It is equally well-established (including by swedish researchers) that 80's style blood doping had a rather large performance enhancing effect.

You are just muddying the waters. Rasmussen had low-normal Hb values throughout his career. Hb values were not very high pre-EPO, despite blood doping.

Well, Mogren was the Alsgaard of his time in terms of splendid technique. However Mogren got nada in championships after 1993.

The stone grinding is properly debunked earlier in the thread. It was common use in other nations from the late 80s. Sweden got nothing after 1994. Norway exploded.You're not serious in your argumentation, are you?
I think it's hilarious that you are using the exact same arguments (superior technique and ski prep) to explain away Mogren's crushing of an EPO-doped field as norwegian deniers use to explain away all the norwegian success in the 90's.

And absence of great results post 1993 does not prove absence of doping in 1993. Basic logic.

Yes, she was an immigrant. I don't get your point?
You brought it up, not me.

Don't really get your point here. The Swedes minutes behind the clean Norwegian with a visible inferior technique?

??? It was you who gave those examples. The top Swedish skiers in your example races were several minutes from the podium, and that is your proof of Swedes being juiced?
The examples show sweden putting 3 guys in the top 8 of the dirtiest event in XC skiing history. 4th place in a marginally less dirty event. 4 guys in top 9 of the overall distance cup when the median skier had a 50% hematocrit in WC races (meaning most skiers were on loads of EPO). And your excuse is that they were soundly beaten by a handful of skiers, therefore there's nothing fishy about beating 95% of team sky high Hb?

Is there a significant correlation between Hb concentration and performance in undoped subjects?
I take it you don't know the answer?
 
Re: Re:

John de Savage said:
The examples show sweden putting 3 guys in the top 8 of the dirtiest event in XC skiing history. 4th place in a marginally less dirty event.
Now I'm beginning to understand where you are aiming with your argumentation. So the three Swedish guys finishing top 8 in the dirtiest event in XC history, 50 K for men in Thunder Bay 1995 were clearly doped. The evidence is that they finished top ten and only around three minutes behind the winner (Fauner) and around one and a half minute behind the runner up (Dählie). By the way, since you are referring to Blodracet, "all medal winners at the 1995 World Championship in Thunder Bay, Canada had hemoglobin levels of 17.5 or higher". That includes Norwegian Dählie as well as the Swede Ordina.
[edit: sorry my bad. It doesn't include Ordina, since "17.5 or higher" must refer to the male medalists]

So your opinion is then: Dählie was juiced up to his ears! Because, not only did he beat doped Finns, Russians, Italians, Kazaks he even did beat the unbeatable (and doped) Swedes 1986-91. If you just could clarify that I did understand you correct in this, let's then continue the discussion from that consensus.
This is Dählies track record in the dirty years you're reffering to. :)

Olympics
Gold 1998 Nagano 10 km
Gold 1998 Nagano 4 x 10 km
Gold 1998 Nagano 50 km
Gold 1994 Lillehammer 10 km
Gold 1994 Lillehammer Skiathlon
Gold 1992 Albertville Skiathlon
Gold 1992 Albertville 50 km
Gold 1992 Albertville 4 x 10 km
Silver 1998 Nagano Skiathlon
Silver 1994 Lillehammer 30 km
Silver 1994 Lillehammer 4 x 10 km
Silver 1992 Albertville 30 km

World Champinoships
Gold 1991 Val di Fiemme 15 km
Gold 1991 Val di Fiemme 4 x 10 km
Gold 1993 Falun 30 km
Gold 1993 Falun 10 + 15 km
Gold 1993 Falun 4 x 10 km
Gold 1995 Thunder Bay 4 x 10 km
Gold 1997 Trondheim 10 km
Gold 1997 Trondheim 10 + 15 km
Gold 1997 Trondheim 4 x 10 km
Silver 1995 Thunder Bay 10 km
Silver 1995 Thunder Bay 30 km
Silver 1995 Thunder Bay 50 km
Silver 1997 Trondheim 30 km
Silver 1999 Ramsau 4 x 10 km
Bronze 1993 Falun 50 km
Bronze 1997 Trondheim 50 km
Bronze 1999 Ramsau 30 km
 
I don't think Dählie was more (or less) in juice than anybody else, he was just superior talent even if everybody were to be clean. Almost everyone anyway did EPO in that era, and Björn was definitely one of them, probably equal terms.

But it is also hypocrism (quite normal though from Sweden as nothing is never done wrong in the peaceful bird nest called Sweden) to claim that Swedes were all clean because they lost 2 minutes to Dählie. They were just about that much worse than him, but still minutes better than known dopers from that time. Furthermore blood doping was there big time already on late 70's and early 80's, and let's remind us again who were "Dählies" of that time... Svan, Wassberg and the folks. So let's blame past champions in equal terms regardless of the nation and not just with handpicked manners.

The last sentence above goes also to John De Savage who has quite cleaverly turned around the discussion from the real matter (Johaug and Asthma) to Swedes in 90's...
But let's get back to today for a while...

The mentioned Dählie said yesterday that the usage of Asthma medicine should be more controlled, especially for the athletes without TUE. Surprisingly (or not) Sundby didn't really like the comments and came to public asking Dählie what he means and explaining how difficult it is to ski at the top when having diagnosed Asthma. I find Sundby's burst bit strange as I didn't get a feeling Dählie was questioning the asthma medicine users with TUE, but rather the once using juice without diagnose. Seems Sundby is bit too sensitive on anything of the topic. Maybe because he actually used *** loads of it without valid TUE and got gauth for doping violation.

In the meanwhile we can also wait Conan O'Brien to apologise all Norway about his lip palm joke :rolleyes:
 
Sep 25, 2009
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it is my strong opinion that an argument re. the Dählie performance ('he would win anyway as a superior talent') is pointless. to me, he is highly suspicious, as i would suspect anyone regardless of their nationality who was consistently on the top during those very dirty years. case closed for me, b/c we will never learn the full story, bar some sensational later claims of the directly involved contemporaries themselves. even then, whether they tell the truth or spin for a reason will always be a question depending on a listener's bias.

and the more nontransparent and obfuscating a given nations fed behaves, the more i suspect they have much to hide...the swedes are no less suspicious, but sorry, they've lagged far behind norway in protecting, idolizing, rejecting questions etc. not that i think, they've done enough. again, my reasoned opinion.

that's why i reject that sundby was an unlucky over dozer. he did his utmost to conceal his abuses. and he got the full power and resources of a rich state-financed institutions.

cry me a river about the doped russians...nothing new there.. i want to know how an athlete with 3 very serious health problems (as detailed in the cas report), how a very sick man taking 4 or 5 classes of strong drugs to fix those health problems, howhe is capable of beating everyone ALL SEASON LONG, season after season ? how this very sick man was capable of staying in top shape ALL SEASON LONG hardly ever missing a world cup race ?

why obviously less successful but likely somewhat healthier fellow asthmatics from all of scandinavia, finland, russia, france...even norway, why do they get sick and miss races ?

but never the guy with a self-admitted heart problems, immune issues and a very severe asthma. mind you, this was only what he admitted to in order to stay off the hook, and of course, he tried to keep it secret while telling the fawning domestic media, 'i have nothing to hide' :Question:

how many more cases like that are under those red-white hats and suits ?
 
I agree with Python. We get it, Daehlie was talented, high VO2 max, lots of KM's of training, hard work, dedicated, blah, blah, blah...The typical Norwegian defense. I can't and I don't want to go racer by racer in analyzing how talented or hard working each racer was during the 90's or after or before or speculating about the future. It's obvious that to get to world class levels in any sport requires a number of elements. Does that free one from PED accusations? No. Beating other talented, hard working, well equipped suspicious skiers is highly suspicious in and of itself. I thought we'd all learn that by watching pro cycling and the never-ending news regarding doping in the past 10-15 years.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Jesus Christ, debate is turning totally absurd on last pages :) Enraged John de Savage goes on with his proganda that people are "defending Sweden as a bastion of clean sport" while nobody claims that. Everybody agrees some Swedes might dope but John is succesfully ignoring it. Pointless debate.

Edit: and, seeing Bambino's reaction, John is succesful with his agenda. While maybe unitentionally, he managed people (willing to believe) that there actually are some evil anti-Norwegian folks claiming that all Swedes are clean while accusing Norwegians from doping (even when we know that Norwegians dope in fact :)
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re:

python said:
it is my strong opinion that an argument re. the Dählie performance ('he would win anyway as a superior talent') is pointless. to me, he is highly suspicious/quote]
This is example of other extreme. There really are those evil anti-Norwegian people...

Bambino clearly stated Daehlie doped. And here you are arguing Daehlie is suspicious to you?

As someone said...blinds are on :rolleyes:
 
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