Doping in XC skiing

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

I mean what I say/think, but am not going all out just yet.
We that making noise about bad dopers is also done by the King Pin dopers themselves. And how can you best the blood dopers?

I agree. Just because someone yells and points fingers and talks with big words about doping doesn't mean they are clean. Fourcade has been making meat and potatoes of EVERYONE in the past five or so seasons. The way he attacks and then slows down and then attacks again on these world cup courses is suspicious to say the least. The Hochfilzen course may not be the toughest of WC courses, but it's deceptively hard and the last, long climb is the hardest on the course, and the way he was jump skating and hardly looking tired is just not....normal. His dominance of biathlon, a sport that has so many variables is even more impressive than Sundby. At the rate he is going, he'll pass Bjoerndalen in all categories by the time he finishes his career.

This.
Boe Jr. is really quick also, but the way Fourcade not only speeds but recovers to shoot well is a whole new standard. Biathlon is quite close. If one decent talent blood dopes, no-one stands a chance seeing them finish.
Fourcade to me is a bit like Usain Bolt. I see the athletic superiority, but can't see it being done clean. Just no reason to even consider it, for either.

 

[Discgear]

Bravo Python, Cloxxki and BullsFan! The read tonight was comforting. You are not always on speaking terms but at least your posts are a raw model of logic rhetoric’s and common sense. ToreBears sudden re-appearance is a sad confirmation of Norse stubbornness, arrogance and inferior intellectual capacity. You simply can’t make a comeback ignoring so many unanswered questions. Sorry to say.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

c'mon chaps ! why is this so complicated ? why do the russ have to have the burden of the proof of anything when the visible evidence is clear ?

it was fourcade who raised the stakes by ridiculing loginov at his every opportunity.

it was fourcade who dumped loginoff to the ground (and i am not blind to the various alternative reasons)

it was fourcade whoo walked out of the award ceremony making the ibu prez bagging the royal presence.

the act was exclusively on the french champion shoulders. that he was NOT interested in a gentleman-to-gentleman talk about doping as opposed to scoring some easy points at the expense of the easy russ targets is as clear as day. the all-available evidence would have been different had the fact been controversial...

martin (eff)F effed overdoing the doping angle that funnily came to bite him in his own ardse.

It was clear as daylight that he impeded Loginov on purpose and he also obstructed Shipulin when they were sprinting towards the finish. It's one thing to be 'vocal' about doping, but it's something completely different to bully your way through out on the course. I am not sure if his actions today will come back to bite him in the a, simply because he'll have the backing of the athletes on the tour that 'revere' him. Like you said, the Russians are easy targets (pun intended) at this point, so whatever he says or does, may not be applauded to the maximum, but it won't be scrutinized either.

 

[glassmoon]

some updates from biathlon anti-doping world:

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-press-release

- 8y bans, 1mil. fines, reduced seasonal starts (+ Olympics + WCH) if member of federation with one or more athlete anti-doping offenses.

+ Kazakh's new scandal:
http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/translation-of-official-statement-by-criminal-intelligence-service-austria

 

[Discgear]

The notoriuos SVT-journalist Hasse Svens (Blodracet) came out strong yesterday. In a debate in Norway he said that he has gone through more than 500 blood samples and being kind, has evidence against at least 12 Norwegian top XC-skiers from the 90s being dopers. He claims the material has been confirmed by a handful of world renown scientists. I guess he soon has to come forward with names?

Maybe SVT-lawyers have stopped him?
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/doping/kritiserer-nye-dopinganklager-mot-norge-uetisk/a/23920869/

 

[Robert5091]

Re:

some updates from biathlon anti-doping world:

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-press-release

- 8y bans, 1mil. fines, reduced seasonal starts (+ Olympics + WCH) if member of federation with one or more athlete anti-doping offenses.

+ Kazakh's new scandal:
http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/translation-of-official-statement-by-criminal-intelligence-service-austria

but ....
"Prior to voting on the eight-year ban proposal, delegates received a WADA-issued letter from January 27, 2017, stating that “in order to comply with the mandatory requirements of the Code, IBU cannot amend its Anti-Doping Rules in a manner that would permit imposing sanctions that are stricter than those foreseen by the Code”.

Based on this recommendation, the Congress rejected the proposal on an eight-year ban to avoid non-compliance with the WADA Code."

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

Hi guys. Does anyone have an opinion on the Fourcade vs the Russians situation?

To me it sounds like mutual misunderstandings leading to more misunderstandings.

ToreBear alive! So at the end you've just disappeared when situation was incovenient for Norge. So guys were right about you.

 

[python]

The notoriuos SVT-journalist Hasse Svens (Blodracet) came out strong yesterday. In a debate in Norway he said that he has gone through more than 500 blood samples and being kind, has evidence against at least 12 Norwegian top XC-skiers from the 90s being dopers. He claims the material has been confirmed by a handful of world renown scientists. I guess he soon has to come forward with names?

Maybe SVT-lawyers have stopped him?
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/doping/kritiserer-nye-dopinganklager-mot-norge-uetisk/a/23920869/

i dont know how i missed this article thanx !

there are some new significant elements in what svens referred as his evidence. to my memory it hasn't been mentioned before in connection with the norwegian doping.

if he indeed has a possession of the novel evidence he mentioned, the doping probability increases to what a competent sports court would consider a proven blood doping offense

explaining... we usually read about those 'blood values' from the 80'and 90s ONLY in terms of high hemoglobin. and it's understandable, b/c the fis was establishing the various hemoglobin thresholds. only later, to my knowledge starting in the mid 90s, another vital blood parameter was added to the unofficial blood monitoring profiles. it was the reticulocytes - the immature red blood cells. the significance of the parameter was such that it was added along with the hemoglobin to an officially accepted blood-doping indicator called off-score. it was even used for the 1st time during the sydney olympics - along with the very new then epo test - to confirm blood doping.

the beauty - or a norwegian night mare - is that one does not need the services of the late bengt saltin to interpret the off-score. it is the mainstay of ALL modern blood doping profiles of ALL world class athletes in ALL endurance sports. there are literally dozens of highly qualified medical and scientific experts making a living interpreting for the fis, ioc, uci, ibu etc etc

that svens found 4-5 qualified experts is more than plausible. the norwegian xc skiers from those years must be very concerned.

unless of course the lawyers manage to shut svens down...

 

[kosmonaut]

13 months for TJ. Be interesting to see if FIS or WADA appeals. I hope so.

Here is the verdict: https://www.idrettsforbundet.no/globalassets/idrett/antidoping/domsutvalget-sak-29-16-avgjorelse-10.02.17.pdf

 

[Rider]

Just made a comparison of "clean" Fourcade and "doped" Loginov courses times. I compared just individual races there both started, and did not calculate hundredth to save me some time.
2012-2013 season:
Stage 7
Sprint, Fourcade won more than a minute
Pursuit, Fourcade won the first lap by 8 second, lost the second lap by 2 second, won the third lap by 18, won the fourth lap by 8. After the last shooting he was winning so much time over the second place that he continued to the finish in a relaxed mode and Loginov won the total time

Stage 8, Olympic games in Sochi
Sprint, Fourcade won 50 seconds (and 25 second over excellent skier Slepov))

November 2013, Loginov testes EPO positive. So he should have an unfair advatage over "clean" Fourcade. Let's see:

2013-2014 season:
Stage 1.
Individual race, Fourcade won 55 seconds
Sprint, Fourcade won more than a minute

Stage 2
Sprint, Fourcade won 27 seconds

Stage 3
Sprint, Fourcade won 33 seconds
Pursuit, Loginov won 24 seconds

Stage 4
Sprint, Fourcade won a minute
Pursuit, Fourcade won 19 seconds
MS, Loginov wins 12 seconds

Stage 6
Sprint, Fourcade won 37 seconds

Stage 7
Individual race, Fourcade won more than 2 minutes

Stage 8
Sprint, Fourcade won more than 3 minutes
MS, Loginov was resting for two days, Foucade had a race on a previous day. Loginov is faster by less than a second

Stage 9
Spint, Fourcade won 22 seconds
Pursuit, Fourcade won 32 second

Stage 10
Sprint, Fourcade won 10 seconds
Pursuit, Fourcade won 51 seconds
MS, Fourcade won almost two minutes

So "clean" Fourcade won over EPOed Loginov 16 times to 4 by astonisging margins.

What kind of cleanness is that???

 

[meat puppet]

^ Special, sanctimonious kind of cleans-li-ness.

Re: Johaug. So Adno is officially willing to let strict liability go. Good to know.

Bet wadas legal personnel will think this is bs and push for appealing. Top brass might think otherwise, however. Hope those in wada that still posses a spine do everything on their power to get an appeal through.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

^ Special, sanctimonious kind of cleans-li-ness.

Re: Johaug. So Adno is officially willing to let strict liability go. Good to know.

Bet wadas legal personnel will think this is bs and push for appealing. Top brass might think otherwise, however. Hope those in wada that still posses a spine do everything on their power to get an appeal through.

Kind of stinks. Especially since the judge in the hearings asked Johaug how a 14 months ban would inflict her participation in the Olympics. She claimed it would be difficult since she couldn't participate in the WC before TDS. A 13 month ban is tailored to let her compete in the WC-opening. Considering Johnsrud Sundby and what has been revealed about extensive medication, considering that ADN cleared MJS, considering the lame verdict of Johaug, considering what came out yesterday by Hasse Svens, and so on. An international investigation of NSF and ADN should be put forward by WADA.

 

[kingjr]

Re:

So "clean" Fourcade won over EPOed Loginov 16 times to 4 by astonisging margins.

Without knowing the details of Loginov's program it's not possible to state that as fact.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re:

+ Kazakh's new scandal:
http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/translation-of-official-statement-by-criminal-intelligence-service-austria

In January 2017, a member of the public reported observing the occupants of several minibuses discarding a large cardboard box on the property of a petrol station in East Tyrol. The cardboard box was found to contain a considerable volume of used disposable medical equipment including disposable syringes, infusions and pharmaceutical phials as well as handwritten notes, indicating that doping had taken place

The police have supplied some pictures http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BK/_news/start.aspx?id=2F4879626F7347535475773D&page=0&view=1

 

[Rider]

Re: Re:

So "clean" Fourcade won over EPOed Loginov 16 times to 4 by astonisging margins.

Without knowing the details of Loginov's program it's not possible to state that as fact.

What is not possible to state as a fact? That Fourcade won 16 times to 4, that he won by astonishing margins or that Loginov was EPOed?

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

So "clean" Fourcade won over EPOed Loginov 16 times to 4 by astonisging margins.

Without knowing the details of Loginov's program it's not possible to state that as fact.

What is not possible to state as a fact? That Fourcade won 16 times to 4, that he won by astonishing margins or that Loginov was EPOed?

That Loginov was on EPO in all these races.
We also don't know how well he responds to EPO.

A comparison like you made doesn't make that much sense if you don't consider the age of the athletes, although even then Fourcade comes out on top on WC-level.

 

[Blaaswix]

Re:

Re: Johaug. So Adno is officially willing to let strict liability go. Good to know.

Bet wadas legal personnel will think this is bs and push for appealing. Top brass might think otherwise, however. Hope those in wada that still posses a spine do everything on their power to get an appeal through.

Agree. Appeal please. It will conveniently mean that she won't miss any of the next season.

 

[Discgear]

The notoriuos SVT-journalist Hasse Svens (Blodracet) came out strong yesterday. In a debate in Norway he said that he has gone through more than 500 blood samples and being kind, has evidence against at least 12 Norwegian top XC-skiers from the 90s being dopers. He claims the material has been confirmed by a handful of world renown scientists. I guess he soon has to come forward with names?

Maybe SVT-lawyers have stopped him?
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/doping/kritiserer-nye-dopinganklager-mot-norge-uetisk/a/23920869/

i dont know how i missed this article thanx !

there are some new significant elements in what svens referred as his evidence. to my memory it hasn't been mentioned before in connection with the norwegian doping.

if he indeed has a possession of the novel evidence he mentioned, the doping probability increases to what a competent sports court would consider a proven blood doping offense

explaining... we usually read about those 'blood values' from the 80'and 90s ONLY in terms of high hemoglobin. and it's understandable, b/c the fis was establishing the various hemoglobin thresholds. only later, to my knowledge starting in the mid 90s, another vital blood parameter was added to the unofficial blood monitoring profiles. it was the reticulocytes - the immature red blood cells. the significance of the parameter was such that it was added along with the hemoglobin to an officially accepted blood-doping indicator called off-score. it was even used for the 1st time during the sydney olympics - along with the very new then epo test - to confirm blood doping.

the beauty - or a norwegian night mare - is that one does not need the services of the late bengt saltin to interpret the off-score. it is the mainstay of ALL modern blood doping profiles of ALL world class athletes in ALL endurance sports. there are literally dozens of highly qualified medical and scientific experts making a living interpreting for the fis, ioc, uci, ibu etc etc

that svens found 4-5 qualified experts is more than plausible. the norwegian xc skiers from those years must be very concerned.

unless of course the lawyers manage to shut svens down...

In the verdict against Johaug today some very interesting information appeared at page 8, which I can't recall has been known before. It has a direct bearing to what Svens is claiming:
Han [Dr. Bendiksen] hadde ledende medisinsk ansvar under OL i Lillehammer i 1994.
https://www.idrettsforbundet.no/globalassets/idrett/antidoping/domsutvalget-sak-29-16-avgjorelse-10.02.17.pdf
So the infamous doctor of Johaug was the leading medical expert during Lillehammer 1994.

 

[Felice Gimondi]

One of the most remarkable, and conspicuous, things during the Johaug ADN doping hearing was when the leading judge initiated a conversation with Johaug. He asked her about how 14 months would effect her vs 16 months. She replied that 16 months would not work, 14 would be hard, but still she could participate in Olympics...

There is no reason to have faith in ADN anymore.

 

[Blaaswix]

An appeal against the Johaug judgment is 'very likely', according to Finnish FIS committee member Marti Uuisatalo.http://www.tv2.no/sport/8919709/ Maybe by FIS, maybe by WADA, maybe both.

 

[python]

Re:

An appeal against the Johaug judgment is 'very likely', according to Finnish FIS committee member Marti Uuisatalo.http://www.tv2.no/sport/8919709/ Maybe by FIS, maybe by WADA, maybe both.

when i heard this morning about the johaug suspension being one month shorter than originally recommended, i thought to myself, 'it's a corrupted deal btwn the norwegian authorities which must be obvious to the fis and wada'. then, another thought followed, 'perhaps the fis must have been a silent party to the deal too, b/c had the fis not been pre-informed, therese would be set free completely'

i still think the fis wont appeal. the norwgian party sway is too heavy still.

but wada must be very curious about the good doc phenomenal amnesia when he was asked all sorts of the case sensitive questions. i give it over 50% chance they are itching to appeal.

 

[Cloxxki]

In stead of just signing the AD board before a race, skiers with balls should write that they ski clean, but don't trust WADA to govern the national AD's. To write it about FIS would mean a ban, surely.

 

[BullsFan22]

I am not sure what everyone is complaining about. The Norwegians have always been competing clean. How do I know this? This is one of the things that convinces me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpcFYFUF7Zc

 

[Blaaswix]

Re: Re:

An appeal against the Johaug judgment is 'very likely', according to Finnish FIS committee member Marti Uuisatalo.http://www.tv2.no/sport/8919709/ Maybe by FIS, maybe by WADA, maybe both.

when i heard this morning about the johaug suspension being one month shorter than originally recommended, i thought to myself, 'it's a corrupted deal btwn the norwegian authorities which must be obvious to the fis and wada'. then, another thought followed, 'perhaps the fis must have been a silent party to the deal too, b/c had the fis not been pre-informed, therese would be set free completely'

i still think the fis wont appeal. the norwgian party sway is too heavy still.

but wada must be very curious about the good doc phenomenal amnesia when he was asked all sorts of the case sensitive questions. i give it over 50% chance they are itching to appeal.

The appeal has to be made within 3 weeks, AFAIK, so it won't be long to wait and see. Oh and Johaug can be back in organised training for the last two months of the suspension, so back with national team by mid September, as it stands. Perfect timing.

 

[BullsFan22]

The poor Italian cyclist got three years. Johaug 13 months. Just in time for the new season. Not gonna miss any world cup races or the TDS, and obviously not the Olympics. How convenient. ADN were hoping for 14 months, she got less than that. Perfect.