Doping in XC skiing

[ToreBear]

Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

Yeah. I'm of a similar opininion. Also it's not just the athlete who cheating you, it's their federation/club/country. We don't know how willing the individual Russians were in the first place and how much is coercion/enticement etc. It's a whole culture thing. It's very tough to change, especially when it seems to be the government thats behind it. For the athlete who got caught, it might not have been such a clear choice between cheating and not cheating.

 

[kingjr]

Old models? They just had the Olympics at home, you'd think they'd up their game for that?

Please name me some of the TUE's the Norwegian biathletes are using and how these TUE's work better than EPO.

What's our reference for what is 'normal' in biathlon? Or any endurance sport?

On a sidenote, if we look at balance and technique, which athletes should be going the fastest, in your opinion?

 

[ToreBear]

Here is how I think this went down:
IBU Tweet happy birthday.
Fourcade tweets doper!
Russian ibu president or something lodges a complaint against fourcade for his response on twitter.
Fourcade apparently takes issue with that,
At the exchange I'm not so sure it was intentional. The question is Fourcade willing to risk:
A: Getting caught and sanctioned by the IBU, ruining it for his three teammates.
B: Breaking a pole and/or ski/other equipment and ruining it for his teammates.
Logically I don't see it. If there was any malice it was in being reckless.

next events:
Fourcade does the dirty in the sprint.
Shipulin is pissed.
Perhaps Loginov is pissed because of the incident at the exchange and also the dirty.
At the ceremony they refuse to shake hands with Fourcade.
Fourcade thinks it's because of he being vocal about doping.

Add a touch of adrenalin and Fourcade blows up.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

Yeah. I'm of a similar opininion. Also it's not just the athlete who cheating you, it's their federation/club/country. We don't know how willing the individual Russians were in the first place and how much is coercion/enticement etc. It's a whole culture thing. It's very tough to change, especially when it seems to be the government thats behind it. For the athlete who got caught, it might not have been such a clear choice between cheating and not cheating.

Yeah, I keep thinking back to Hamilton and how he would ride clean until he felt really down and tired and Celaya would show him a little pill that would help him recover... It's easy to see how it happens.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

Yeah. I'm of a similar opininion. Also it's not just the athlete who cheating you, it's their federation/club/country. We don't know how willing the individual Russians were in the first place and how much is coercion/enticement etc. It's a whole culture thing. It's very tough to change, especially when it seems to be the government thats behind it. For the athlete who got caught, it might not have been such a clear choice between cheating and not cheating.

do us a favour torebeare, - many have been asking the similar questions in your absence - how the mighty norwegian state support for their own dopers, i mean those you may have heard about: sundby and johaug - is different ?

did your compatriot dopers not enjoy the unequivocal moral, scientific, financial support from the norwegian state ?

many have been waiting for you to answer those questions way before the russ troubles which no one here finds a justification for...

 

[kingjr]

Re:

B: Breaking a pole and/or ski/other equipment and ruining it for his teammates.

He has already done that before, deliberately, a couple of years ago. Although he made up for it by giving Lindström his own pole immediately. The point is, he sometimes acts impulsively, and only thinks about the consequences a few seconds later.

http://blogs.fasterskier.com/biathlon/2013/12/18/martin-fourcade-breaks-lindstroms-pole-gives-him-his/

 

[ToreBear]

Re:

Tomorrow is the publication date of Erkki Vettenniemi's new book "Suomalainen hiihtodoping - Punssia, pillereitä ja punasoluja" (Dopin in Finnish Xc skiing - Punch, pills and red blood cells). Today he wrote a piece in Helsingin Sanomat, the biggest daily in Finland, laying bare the fact that the Finnish Ski Association was in possession of erythropoietin in late 1980s, before the 1989 Lahti World Championships. According to the piece, the epo was obtained for research purposes, namely for the development of tests for Epo based blood doping (at least officially).

The piece is only in Finnish, but google translate does a half-decent job: http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000005080313.html

One implication of this is, of course, that epo was well in the scene in the late 80s.

Thanks for the link. It was hard to understand. Something about not knowing who the experimental group was or something.

Also they did blood tests on the whole field in Lahti. I don't remember if it was a FIS project or a Finnish project or what.

As for Epo in the late 80s. The Finns and Italians were the early adopters. You could say they were the pioneers of hemoglobin "optimization".

 

[python]

Re: Re:

Tomorrow is the publication date of Erkki Vettenniemi's new book "Suomalainen hiihtodoping - Punssia, pillereitä ja punasoluja" (Dopin in Finnish Xc skiing - Punch, pills and red blood cells). Today he wrote a piece in Helsingin Sanomat, the biggest daily in Finland, laying bare the fact that the Finnish Ski Association was in possession of erythropoietin in late 1980s, before the 1989 Lahti World Championships. According to the piece, the epo was obtained for research purposes, namely for the development of tests for Epo based blood doping (at least officially).

The piece is only in Finnish, but google translate does a half-decent job: http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000005080313.html

One implication of this is, of course, that epo was well in the scene in the late 80s.

Thanks for the link. It was hard to understand. Something about not knowing who the experimental group was or something.

Also they did blood tests on the whole field in Lahti. I don't remember if it was a FIS project or a Finnish project or what.

As for Epo in the late 80s. The Finns and Italians were the early adopters. You could say they were the pioneers of hemoglobin "optimization".

let me get it back to where you left...

your posts so far indicate you seem to be only and exclusively interested in the finnish and russian dopers... if we consider your past of a fanboy, it makes sense.

but what about your own norwegian dopers ? have you ever heard of them ? give us some of your opinions if they are anything different than a primitive fanboy you've been marked.

 

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

Yeah. I'm of a similar opininion. Also it's not just the athlete who cheating you, it's their federation/club/country. We don't know how willing the individual Russians were in the first place and how much is coercion/enticement etc. It's a whole culture thing. It's very tough to change, especially when it seems to be the government thats behind it. For the athlete who got caught, it might not have been such a clear choice between cheating and not cheating.

do us a favour torebeare, - many have been asking the similar questions in your absence - how the mighty norwegian state support for their own dopers, i mean those you may have heard about: sundby and johaug - is different ?

did your compatriot dopers not enjoy the unequivocal moral, scientific, financial support from the norwegian state ?

many have been waiting for you to answer those questions way before the russ troubles which no one here finds a justification for...

Sorry the NFL took my time.

Johaug: Innocent -->14 months

Sundby: Probably discussed that already. I think he was railroaded because WADA didn't want a precedent set. CAS agreed that it was not an attempt to enhance performance(hence dope).
So the Norwegian "State" actually sports federation provided them with doctors who were a mix of Incompetent/Arrogant/distracted: Johaugs problem would have been avoided by the doc actually checking out what trifoderm was before passing it on. Sundbys with a simple phone call to Wada by the doc to find out that Sundby needed a TUE for his treatment.

Then you have Norwegian Antidoping who is one of the best funded and most proactive NADS in the world. And is a seperate foundation, getting Johaug on one of their anti doping tests.

Compare with Russia where the secret police is involved as well as the ministry of sport, and having set up a very good AD system, only to have the labs boss and his superiors ruining the process.

Sorry it's like the opposite spectrum on the do the right thing scale.

 

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

Tomorrow is the publication date of Erkki Vettenniemi's new book "Suomalainen hiihtodoping - Punssia, pillereitä ja punasoluja" (Dopin in Finnish Xc skiing - Punch, pills and red blood cells). Today he wrote a piece in Helsingin Sanomat, the biggest daily in Finland, laying bare the fact that the Finnish Ski Association was in possession of erythropoietin in late 1980s, before the 1989 Lahti World Championships. According to the piece, the epo was obtained for research purposes, namely for the development of tests for Epo based blood doping (at least officially).

The piece is only in Finnish, but google translate does a half-decent job: http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000005080313.html

One implication of this is, of course, that epo was well in the scene in the late 80s.

Thanks for the link. It was hard to understand. Something about not knowing who the experimental group was or something.

Also they did blood tests on the whole field in Lahti. I don't remember if it was a FIS project or a Finnish project or what.

As for Epo in the late 80s. The Finns and Italians were the early adopters. You could say they were the pioneers of hemoglobin "optimization".

let me get it back to where you left...

your posts so far indicate you seem to be only and exclusively interested in the finnish and russian dopers... if we consider your past of a fanboy, it makes sense.

but what about your own norwegian dopers ? have you ever heard of them ? give us some of your opinions if they are anything different than a primitive fanboy you've been marked.

Sorry, I'm interested in all dopers. Especially the situations that led them to dope. And if their is a fanboy here I suggest you look in the mirror.

 

[python]

i do appreciate you speaking out, torebear. will have to disagree on many of your points. but b/c i assume you did not read all the posts (mine or anyones) re. the sundby and johaug doping cases, it will be better if the issues come back into the discussion one-by-one as the board finds interest in the repetitions and if you find enough courage to stick around rebutting the skeptics.

you are absolutely correct about me being a fanboy. i am an admitted fanboy of stina and there is no secret about it me having her displayed. i even hinted at one of the personal reasons - she's very similar physically and mentally to my own daughter exactly her age.

otoh, you are a widely recognized - at least on this board - a fanboy and an apologist for the norwegian doping. and get this, i respect you disagreeing with the common opinion.

but as i said, you seem to have at least a tone change and its a welcome sign.

 

[ToreBear]

Re:

i do appreciate you speaking out, torebear. will have to disagree on many of your points. but b/c i assume you did not read all the posts (mine or anyones) re. the sundby and johaug doping cases, it will be better if the issues come back into the discussion one-by-one as the board finds interest in the repetitions and if you find enough courage to stick around rebutting the skeptics.

i am an admitted fanboy of stina and there is no secret about it me having her displayed.

you are a widely recognized - at least on this board - a fanboy and an apologist for the norwegian doping.

but as i said, you seem to have at least a tone change and its a welcome sign.

I think I said what was necessary about Sundby. I haven't been following this thread since the NFL season began. If I find the time and interest I might read from where I left off. I have the courage, but not the necesarilly the time.

I'm not talking about Stina, I'm a fanboy of her as well. I'm talking about the Russians/Russia. As for any general opinion about me on this board. Who knows what some think. Some see doping everywhere others are a bit more nuanced. I don't apologize for Norwegian Doping since there havent been any doping to apologize for. The last real national doping scandal I can remember was a racewalker in 2010 or something. And he was in my opinion guilty as charged.

You however seem to apologize for doping with trying to make a case for everyone else doing it too, especially those evil Norwegians who keep winning. The "they did it too" rationalization.

I havent changed any tone. You however seem more careful and calculated in your insults/inuendo whatever. Anger management? Good for you!

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

Yeah. I'm of a similar opininion. Also it's not just the athlete who cheating you, it's their federation/club/country. We don't know how willing the individual Russians were in the first place and how much is coercion/enticement etc. It's a whole culture thing. It's very tough to change, especially when it seems to be the government thats behind it. For the athlete who got caught, it might not have been such a clear choice between cheating and not cheating.

do us a favour torebeare, - many have been asking the similar questions in your absence - how the mighty norwegian state support for their own dopers, i mean those you may have heard about: sundby and johaug - is different ?

did your compatriot dopers not enjoy the unequivocal moral, scientific, financial support from the norwegian state ?

many have been waiting for you to answer those questions way before the russ troubles which no one here finds a justification for...

Sorry the NFL took my time.

Johaug: Innocent -->14 months

Sundby: Probably discussed that already. I think he was railroaded because WADA didn't want a precedent set. CAS agreed that it was not an attempt to enhance performance(hence dope).
So the Norwegian "State" actually sports federation provided them with doctors who were a mix of Incompetent/Arrogant/distracted: Johaugs problem would have been avoided by the doc actually checking out what trifoderm was before passing it on. Sundbys with a simple phone call to Wada by the doc to find out that Sundby needed a TUE for his treatment.

Then you have Norwegian Antidoping who is one of the best funded and most proactive NADS in the world. And is a seperate foundation, getting Johaug on one of their anti doping tests.

Compare with Russia where the secret police is involved as well as the ministry of sport, and having set up a very good AD system, only to have the labs boss and his superiors ruining the process.

Sorry it's like the opposite spectrum on the do the right thing scale.

Welcome back! I disagree on all fronts, but I appreciate you saying the same things today that you said 6-7 months ago (defending Norwegian doping ad nauseam), no matter what happened in between.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

i do appreciate you speaking out, torebear. will have to disagree on many of your points. but b/c i assume you did not read all the posts (mine or anyones) re. the sundby and johaug doping cases, it will be better if the issues come back into the discussion one-by-one as the board finds interest in the repetitions and if you find enough courage to stick around rebutting the skeptics.

i am an admitted fanboy of stina and there is no secret about it me having her displayed.

you are a widely recognized - at least on this board - a fanboy and an apologist for the norwegian doping.

but as i said, you seem to have at least a tone change and its a welcome sign.

I think I said what was necessary about Sundby. I haven't been following this thread since the NFL season began. If I find the time and interest I might read from where I left off. I have the courage, but not the necesarilly the time.

I'm not talking about Stina, I'm a fanboy of her as well. I'm talking about the Russians/Russia. As for any general opinion about me on this board. Who knows what some think. Some see doping everywhere others are a bit more nuanced. I don't apologize for Norwegian Doping since there havent been any doping to apologize for. The last real national doping scandal I can remember was a racewalker in 2010 or something. And he was in my opinion guilty as charged.

You however seem to apologize for doping with trying to make a case for everyone else doing it too, especially those evil Norwegians who keep winning. The "they did it too" rationalization.

I havent changed any tone. You however seem more careful and calculated in your insults/inuendo whatever. Anger management? Good for you!

thank you, torebear, for getting us to where we are used seeing you - a relentless apologist for doping by your compatriots. it clearly looks like the exceptional and unprecedented circumstances of the sundby and johaug doping cases havn't moved you a millineter.

if that is a change in my tone of you apologetic babble, you are delirious.

i have been very pointed about your sudden appearance and intend to remain so.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

OPEN UP??? WHAT??? What will he ask? "Oh hey guys, why do you dope?" And what are they going to say?

 

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

Yeah. I'm of a similar opininion. Also it's not just the athlete who cheating you, it's their federation/club/country. We don't know how willing the individual Russians were in the first place and how much is coercion/enticement etc. It's a whole culture thing. It's very tough to change, especially when it seems to be the government thats behind it. For the athlete who got caught, it might not have been such a clear choice between cheating and not cheating.

do us a favour torebeare, - many have been asking the similar questions in your absence - how the mighty norwegian state support for their own dopers, i mean those you may have heard about: sundby and johaug - is different ?

did your compatriot dopers not enjoy the unequivocal moral, scientific, financial support from the norwegian state ?

many have been waiting for you to answer those questions way before the russ troubles which no one here finds a justification for...

Sorry the NFL took my time.

Johaug: Innocent -->14 months

Sundby: Probably discussed that already. I think he was railroaded because WADA didn't want a precedent set. CAS agreed that it was not an attempt to enhance performance(hence dope).
So the Norwegian "State" actually sports federation provided them with doctors who were a mix of Incompetent/Arrogant/distracted: Johaugs problem would have been avoided by the doc actually checking out what trifoderm was before passing it on. Sundbys with a simple phone call to Wada by the doc to find out that Sundby needed a TUE for his treatment.

Then you have Norwegian Antidoping who is one of the best funded and most proactive NADS in the world. And is a seperate foundation, getting Johaug on one of their anti doping tests.

Compare with Russia where the secret police is involved as well as the ministry of sport, and having set up a very good AD system, only to have the labs boss and his superiors ruining the process.

Sorry it's like the opposite spectrum on the do the right thing scale.

Welcome back! I disagree on all fronts, but I appreciate you saying the same things today that you said 6-7 months ago (defending Norwegian doping ad nauseam), no matter what happened in between.

Thanks! I tend to stick to the truth as I see it no matter how unpopular that truth might be. :razz:

 

[BullsFan22]

Truth? Ah yes. Truth. It's a nice word.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

.. I tend to stick to the truth

you are a gift to all open-minded fans.

thank you. sicerely.

a gift to all the fans of the sport who haven't happened to be born in norway

and even then, as this board had witnessed, such posters as (their handles i dropped b/c most can easily recall them) have NEVER reached the slavish compliance of torebear... in fact, these open-minded norwegian posters contributing many valuable materials on the controversial doping cases i personally learned from.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

OPEN UP??? WHAT??? What will he ask? "Oh hey guys, why do you dope?" And what are they going to say?

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

OPEN UP??? WHAT??? What will he ask? "Oh hey guys, why do you dope?" And what are they going to say?

Pretty much, yeah.

And if they say "why do you dope?" or "We'll tell you why when you tell us why."

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

OPEN UP??? WHAT??? What will he ask? "Oh hey guys, why do you dope?" And what are they going to say?

Pretty much, yeah.

And if they say "why do you dope?" or "We'll tell you why when you tell us why."

What if I don't dope?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

I think driving a wedge between athletes is the wrong way to go about it. The doping problem in Russia seems to be systemic and organized, it would be better to adress that together with the Russian athletes. If I was an athlete of Fourcade's calibre I would first try to talk 1 on 1 with the Russian athletes, with a trusted interpreter, try to get them to open up.

OPEN UP??? WHAT??? What will he ask? "Oh hey guys, why do you dope?" And what are they going to say?

Pretty much, yeah.

And if they say "why do you dope?" or "We'll tell you why when you tell us why."

What if I don't dope?

The realist in me says Fourcade is not clean. The cynic in me agrees.

 

[python]

c'mon chaps ! why is this so complicated ? why do the russ have to have the burden of the proof of anything when the visible evidence is clear ?

it was fourcade who raised the stakes by ridiculing loginov at his every opportunity.

it was fourcade who dumped loginoff to the ground (and i am not blind to the various alternative reasons)

it was fourcade whoo walked out of the award ceremony making the ibu prez bagging the royal presence.

the act was exclusively on the french champion shoulders. that he was NOT interested in a gentleman-to-gentleman talk about doping as opposed to scoring some easy points at the expense of the easy russ targets is as clear as day. the all-available evidence would have been different had the fact been controversial...

martin (eff)F effed overdoing the doping angle that funnily came to bite him in his own ardse.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

OPEN UP??? WHAT??? What will he ask? "Oh hey guys, why do you dope?" And what are they going to say?

Pretty much, yeah.

And if they say "why do you dope?" or "We'll tell you why when you tell us why."

What if I don't dope?

The realist in me says Fourcade is not clean. The cynic in me agrees.

The realist in me says that I have no f*cking clue.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

I mean what I say/think, but am not going all out just yet.
We that making noise about bad dopers is also done by the King Pin dopers themselves. And how can you best the blood dopers?

I agree. Just because someone yells and points fingers and talks with big words about doping doesn't mean they are clean. Fourcade has been making meat and potatoes of EVERYONE in the past five or so seasons. The way he attacks and then slows down and then attacks again on these world cup courses is suspicious to say the least. The Hochfilzen course may not be the toughest of WC courses, but it's deceptively hard and the last, long climb is the hardest on the course, and the way he was jump skating and hardly looking tired is just not....normal. His dominance of biathlon, a sport that has so many variables is even more impressive than Sundby. At the rate he is going, he'll pass Bjoerndalen in all categories by the time he finishes his career.

This.
Boe Jr. is really quick also, but the way Fourcade not only speeds but recovers to shoot well is a whole new standard. Biathlon is quite close. If one decent talent blood dopes, no-one stands a chance seeing them finish.
Fourcade to me is a bit like Usain Bolt. I see the athletic superiority, but can't see it being done clean. Just no reason to even consider it, for either.