Doping in XC skiing

[goggalor]

Even the craziest oxygen absorbtion into the most genetically gifted lungs won't allow you to follow the world's best natural skiers.

Who would that be?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Apparently, the norwegians shared their Hb-values in 2001. Not sure if these are supposed to be all-career or just that season.

Thomas Alsgaard (29)
Highest: 17,1
Lowest: 15,0
Normal: 15,9

Kristen Skjeldal (33)
Høyest: 17,6
Lavest: 14,5
Normal: 15,2

Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset (29)
Høyest: 15,6
Lavest: 13,9
Normal: 14,5

Espen Bjervig (28)
Høyest: 15,2
Lavest: 13,5
Normal: 14,5

Håvard Solbakken (27)
Høyest: 17,5
Lavest: 14,5
Normal: 16,0

Tor Arne Hetland (27)
Høyest: 16,1
Lavest: 14,9
Normal: 15,2

Frode Estil (28)
Høyest: 17,5
Lavest: 15,5
Normal: 16,0

Erling Jevne (34)
Høyest: 16,7
Lavest: 14,0
Normal: 15,0

Jan Jacob Verdenius (27)
Høyest: 16,6
Lavest: 14,9
Normal: 15,7

Tore Bjonviken (26)
Høyest: 17,8
Lavest: 15,5
Normal: 16,0

Elin Nilsen (32)
Høyest: 16,3
Lavest: 13,5
Normal: 14,5

Hilde Gjermundshaug Pedersen (36)
Høyest: 14,0
Lavest: 12,5
Normal: 13,5

Tina Bay (27)
Høyest: 13,9
Lavest: 12,9
Normal: 13,4

Marit Bjørgen (20)
Høyest: 14,2
Lavest: 13,8
Normal: 14,0

Vibeke W. Skofterud (20)
Høyest: 14,1
Lavest: 12,8
Normal: 13,3

Ine Wigernæs (31)
Høyest: 15,6
Lavest: 13,5
Normal: 14,4

Marit Roaldset (23)
Høyest: 14,0
Lavest: 13,0
Normal: 13,2

Maj Helen Sorkmo (31)
Høyest: 16,7
Lavest: 13,9
Normal: 14,3

Bente Skari (28)

Dagbladet couldn't get ahold of Bente, but her coach assured them that her Hb values are low, 12-13 g/dl.

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html

 

[Bavarianrider]

So it's a lock that Alsgard or Estil were on something.

Weren't we told in here that norwegians never doped and where simply good cause of stone grind. And Mühlegg was the only one who doped?

 

[Trond Vidar]

So it's a lock that Alsgard or Estil were on something.

How? I've been tested on those numbers (15-17+) and never doped.

 

[MrRoboto]

Thomas Alsgaard just got a bronze on the 15 km classical race in the norwegian national championship -- almost 9 years after he quit his professional career.

 

[meandmygitane]

Off-topic:

Just for information, at the TV-broadcast from the Norwegian champs. one of the commentators stated that Espen Harald Bjerke (who is/hasn't exactly been a winning machine) had been measured to have a VO2max of 96 ml/kg historically but the other commentator said that the measurements had been faulty.

So I would be very wary of trusting any Norwegian VO2max-values, including Daehlie's. Lot's of strange values.

 

[Cloxxki]

Off-topic:

Just for information, at the TV-broadcast from the Norwegian champs. one of the commentators stated that Espen Harald Bjerke (who is/hasn't exactly been a winning machine) had been measured to have a VO2max of 96 ml/kg historically but the other commentator said that the measurements had been faulty.

So I would be very wary of trusting any Norwegian VO2max-values, including Daehlie's. Lot's of strange values.

In case of pro atheletes, I suppose the big diference is WHEN they were tested. or, in which medical state. You could have yourself be tested in the off-season, after recently drawing blood, getting ready to pick up actual training again for next season. Or, do it the week before you biggest race. Blood levels near perfect, or even simulating what they'll be at the race.
If Lemond got 90's and is understood by most to have been clean, others can certainly get their with help. Peers will not want to be tested on the day of a cancelled huge one-day classic.

 

[Pazuzu]

Interesting thread. I actually believe that Bjorn Daehlie was clean. His dominance was a combination of natural talent, superior technique and training methods, faster skis, and finally, training at altitude and/or use of the oxygen tent (which was allowed at that time). And this was enough for him to beat the dopers most of the time.

I also believe that, unlike pro-cycling, world cup nordic skiing has made major strides towards cleaner competition over the past decade.

 

[Cloxxki]

Women's XC. How about that Diggins girl? 5th today in 15k after 6th in Moscow earlier this week.
Both in XC and Biathlon, North America took a huge leap in speed the past days of weeks. Kershaw (CA) got his first WC win in the 15k.

 

[vcampbell]

Women's XC. How about that Diggins girl? 5th today in 15k after 6th in Moscow earlier this week.
Both in XC and Biathlon, North America took a huge leap in speed the past days of weeks. Kershaw (CA) got his first WC win in the 15k.

Maybe perfect peaking? Ok, I never heard from Diggins before, but who knows, maybe trained for this all the time, and we see that almost everyone is after the TdS. And if we see her results we can see, that she had won almost everything in NA.
I think there is nothing surprising about Kershaw. It was only the matter of time of his first win. When we see Kersaw's and Harvey's results, then we can see that they are better and better.

 

[Cloxxki]

Maybe perfect peaking? Ok, I never heard from Diggins before, but who knows, maybe trained for this all the time, and we see that almost everyone is after the TdS. And if we see her results we can see, that she had won almost everything in NA.
I think there is nothing surprising about Kershaw. It was only the matter of time of his first win. When we see Kersaw's and Harvey's results, then we can see that they are better and better.

I agree on Kershaw of course. With the top two absent, he was a huge win candidate before the start.

 

[Cloxxki]

Four Americans in today's Kontiolahti (FIN) Biathlin Sprint race. Especially the ski speeds were good, shooting better than I'm used to from them of late. Are they just better at peaking towards Worlds which are around the corner, when the top nations are very mixed in that respect?
Is America the new Russia or Norway all at once? I always cheer for them, but I have been bad at picking favorites before. I get suspicious with collective improvements in individual sports.

 

[Zoncolan]

Today's performance in men's pursuit of IBU WC by OEB was ridiculous.
A veteran who was unable to keep up with younger guys since he was 36 suddenly outskies Svendsen and M. Fourcade, the two fastest skiers at 38?!
Did he sign for RSNT or something?

 

[maltiv]

Today's performance in men's pursuit of IBU WC by OEB was ridiculous.
A veteran who was unable to keep up with younger guys since he was 36 suddenly outskies Svendsen and M. Fourcade, the two fastest skiers at 38?!
Did he sign for RSNT or something?

Since he was 36? At 36 he won 3 world cup victories and was the fastest skier in the Olympics. Also, he wasn't faster than Svendsen today.

His form has improved steadily since the season started. Last season he started in a bit too good shape when he was the fastest skier at the beginning of the season.

 

[python]

sometimes i feel like asking a question i know the answer to...

did bjørndalen spray dope into martin fourcade’s eyes today forcing him to miss the 2 last shots ??

i don’t think so.

if there are consistent greats in any sport ole einar is certainly the one.

 

[Zoncolan]

Since he was 36? At 36 he won 3 world cup victories and was the fastest skier in the Olympics. Also, he wasn't faster than Svendsen today.

His form has improved steadily since the season started. Last season he started in a bit too good shape when he was the fastest skier at the beginning of the season.

Svendsen was the fastest at the Olympics IIRC.
The jump in form is too great to be the result of normal peaking IMO.
@Python: nobody is disputing the fact he's the GOAT. He's way past his peak years, with guys like M. Fourcade skiing faster than him for the past two years, and Svendsen for even longer. Suddenly, at 38 he improves his ski speed by 10% and is able to match their speed?! I don't think so.
Especially keeping in mind that these two are 23 and 26 respectively and constantly improving.
For the record, I was always a Poiree fan.

 

[roundabout]

Björndalen did seem to be steadily improving his form recently so I am not really surprised that he could do well today.

Although I think he is past it in the interval races

 

[Cloxxki]

Yet to see the men's pursuit, waiting for the torrent to become available.

I'm (who isn't?) an OEB fan of many years. He does seem like a grumpy, over-focussed or arrogant personality, but I've always liked his performances. Not that he's not naturally the quickest anymore (no bad intent with that remark per say), I am also becoming less of a fan. His fast skiing is more suspect than a revelation to me. He's becoming a bit of a Longo. That does worry me. The new breed of biathletes are so obviously gifted physically. And leave nothing to be desired in terms of technique. The Austrians have lost a minute or more of their silly Vancouver performances, and OEB is closing in of the likes of Svendsen and Fourcade?
If he's not clean, I am feeling he perhaps was, or more so, for a large part of his career. He's finding a LOT of speed lately, and I don't understand it. The willpower was always there. He IS the GOAT. But still, humanity never looked bad on anyone.

 

[Ferminal]

It doesn't quite sit right with me that he'd be clean for most of his career but then decide to do a Horner at the age where he probably should be retiring.

 

[Cloxxki]

It doesn't quite sit right with me that he'd be clean for most of his career but then decide to do a Horner at the age where he probably should be retiring.

Why would Horner be the only one? No drop in ski speed over 2 decades, that'd be more odd.
It may also being that the others are cleaner. The Austrians are, or are not taking their sport serious at all.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

On the Americans: They've been pretty good over 3 laps for a while now, but over 5 laps the endurance is lacking. Currier has now twice done a top 10 sprint then been absolutely nowhere in the ensuing pursuit; Bailey consistently is among the first chasing pack after 3 laps then throws it away towards the end.

On Bjørndalen: Quite a few decent-sized names were missing from this weekend, with the top Germans and a couple of the Russians electing to stay at home or use IBU Cup events to prepare for the Worlds. The last event before the Worlds quite often throws up a few surprise results. Maybe Ole Einar has seen this as a very good opportunity for success on the calendar and planned accordingly; he missed 2, Fourcade 3, no? Still surprised he could keep up with the Frenchman's pace, mind. Maybe Fourcade and Svendsen took more out of each other with their games than they thought.

 

[Zoncolan]

Why would Horner be the only one? No drop in ski speed over 2 decades, that'd be more odd.
It may also being that the others are cleaner. The Austrians are, or are not taking their sport serious at all.

I'm amazed at how much slower Landertinger, Eder et al have been lately. They were flying 2 years ago.
Also, where is Maxim Tchoudov? He was outskiing everyone bar OEB 3 years ago. Then we had a few busts in the Russian team (Iourieva, Iaroshenko) and him and Tcherezov all but dissapeared. Sleptsova is also way slower than she used to be.

 

[jsem94]

I'm still giving OEB the benefit of the doubt this time around. He certainly didn't just suddenly pop out of nowhere with great skiing times. He was the best norwegian in Antholz, and was making improvements in Holmenkollen - so the fact that he might be peaking now shouldn't surprise people. If he has this fantastic form sustained throughout the Worlds, then we'll have a different discussion.

 

[roundabout]

I'm amazed at how much slower Landertinger, Eder et al have been lately. They were flying 2 years ago.
Also, where is Maxim Tchoudov? He was outskiing everyone bar OEB 3 years ago. Then we had a few busts in the Russian team (Iourieva, Iaroshenko) and him and Tcherezov all but dissapeared. Sleptsova is also way slower than she used to be.

Tchoudov and Tcherezov are injured.

Tchoudov did seem to lose form during his last season of competitions but there was nothing wrong with Tcherezov.

 

[vcampbell]

Svendsen was the fastest at the Olympics IIRC.
The jump in form is too great to be the result of normal peaking IMO.
@Python: nobody is disputing the fact he's the GOAT. He's way past his peak years, with guys like M. Fourcade skiing faster than him for the past two years, and Svendsen for even longer. Suddenly, at 38 he improves his ski speed by 10% and is able to match their speed?! I don't think so.
Especially keeping in mind that these two are 23 and 26 respectively and constantly improving.
For the record, I was always a Poiree fan.

As maltiv wrote, OEB form has improved in the last few races, and also don't forget, that Fourcade and Svendsen were in the main group half of the race, and OEB needed to chase them, so it is not so surprising that he went so fast. Also Fourcade and Svendsen also missed too many. And we also don't know anything about how the wax worked etc.

For me it was much more surprising that in januar and december(?) Simon Fourcade was the fastest skier. The man who before always was a way slower than the top10-15. Thank god now he is there where he should be, bit I think his performance was much more outstanding.