Doping in XC skiing

[Zoncolan]

Tchoudov and Tcherezov are injured.

Tchoudov did seem to lose form during his last season of competitions but there was nothing wrong with Tcherezov.

Thanks for the info. Didn't know they were injured.

 

[Zoncolan]

As maltiv wrote, OEB form has improved in the last few races, and also don't forget, that Fourcade and Svendsen were in the main group half of the race, and OEB needed to chase them, so it is not so surprising that he went so fast. Also Fourcade and Svendsen also missed too many. And we also don't know anything about how the wax worked etc.

For me it was much more surprising that in januar and december(?) Simon Fourcade was the fastest skier. The man who before always was a way slower than the top10-15. Thank god now he is there where he should be, bit I think his performance was much more outstanding.

He had to chase throughout the season, but was only able to match them today.
I mantain my position on OEB.
As for Fourcade, he has been a top 15 skier for the past 3 seasons. Garanichev is a guy who performed remarkably well last week and is already down this week. An equally interesting peak.

 

[vcampbell]

He had to chase throughout the season, but was only able to match them today.
I mantain my position on OEB.
As for Fourcade, he has been a top 15 skier for the past 3 seasons. Garanichev is a guy who performed remarkably well last week and is already down this week. An equally interesting peak.

I meant, that today he started from the 4th position, one of the best in the season. Also in january he wrote that he missed trainings before the start of the season, and he compensated this in january, so his form is increasing, and peaking perfectly in this month.

Yeah ~top15, but he was never a good, and absolutely not the best skier. It was more than strange. What he does now, I think it's his normal form, where without perfect shooting he is nowhere.

I not really want to write anything about russians, because they are always strange. There is always a russian in biathlon and xc who comes from nowhere and reach a top10 position.

 

[maltiv]

He had to chase throughout the season, but was only able to match them today.
I mantain my position on OEB.

I really don't see how you can find this particularly suspicious. Peaking happens in all endurance sports. Bjørndalen has been gradually improving all season, always saying that he wanted to peak later, for the worlds. Svendsen and Fourcade however, who want the overall win, must be as good as possible all season. Naturally it's harder to be at your top shape all the time than to peak for one particular event. That's why they are both further away from their top shape at the moment than Bjørndalen is. Bjørndalen has already admitted that he no longer has the ability to win unless he's in his absolute top shape, while Fourcade and Svendsen can win no matter what part of the season it is.

 

[Zoncolan]

I really don't see how you can find this particularly suspicious. Peaking happens in all endurance sports. Bjørndalen has been gradually improving all season, always saying that he wanted to peak later, for the worlds. Svendsen and Fourcade however, who want the overall win, must be as good as possible all season. Naturally it's harder to be at your top shape all the time than to peak for one particular event. That's why they are both further away from their top shape at the moment than Bjørndalen is. Bjørndalen has already admitted that he no longer has the ability to win unless he's in his absolute top shape, while Fourcade and Svendsen can win no matter what part of the season it is.

I just don't buy his speed at the moment.
I haven't seen him ski this good in almost two years, this is why I find it hard to believe that he is able to produce it now at this late age (38).
That's all.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I just don't buy his speed at the moment.
I haven't seen him ski this good in almost two years, this is why I find it hard to believe that he is able to produce it now at this late age (38).
That's all.

Well, then you haven't been paying attention. OEB had similar performances last winter and the winter before that.

Why would Horner be the only one? No drop in ski speed over 2 decades, that'd be more odd.
It may also being that the others are cleaner. The Austrians are, or are not taking their sport serious at all.

I don't think you remember how fast OEB used to be. His average ski speed was better than his peak speed today.

I'm amazed at how much slower Landertinger, Eder et al have been lately. They were flying 2 years ago.
Also, where is Maxim Tchoudov? He was outskiing everyone bar OEB 3 years ago. Then we had a few busts in the Russian team (Iourieva, Iaroshenko) and him and Tcherezov all but dissapeared. Sleptsova is also way slower than she used to be.

Landertinger and the other austrians have definitely declined...

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...#!/2011/12/whats-wrong-with-austrian-men.html

...but Landertinger was a top 10 skier in december and a top 10 skier last week in Holmenkollen, so it's not like he's a chump now (as a skier).

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...2011/12/fastest-skiers-201112-season-men.html

http://docs.biathlonresults.com/1112/BT/SWRL/CP07/SMSP/BT_C77B_1.0.pdf

http://docs.biathlonresults.com/1112/BT/SWRL/CP07/SMPU/BT_C77D_1.0.pdf

As maltiv wrote, OEB form has improved in the last few races, and also don't forget, that Fourcade and Svendsen were in the main group half of the race, and OEB needed to chase them, so it is not so surprising that he went so fast. Also Fourcade and Svendsen also missed too many. And we also don't know anything about how the wax worked etc.

For me it was much more surprising that in januar and december(?) Simon Fourcade was the fastest skier. The man who before always was a way slower than the top10-15. Thank god now he is there where he should be, bit I think his performance was much more outstanding.

Him and Birnbacher (and Bergman in early december) are clearly the biggest positive surprises among the established, mature biathletes.

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...z#!/2012/01/fastest-skiers-of-season-men.html

 

[maltiv]

I just don't buy his speed at the moment.
I haven't seen him ski this good in almost two years, this is why I find it hard to believe that he is able to produce it now at this late age (38).
That's all.

He did a relay in the XC skiing world cup about a year ago where he had the fastest lap of all participants. For no reason whatsoever though, as he was skiing for Norway 2 and they were far behind, but yet he went faster than guys like Cologna and Northug.

Also, he was always amongst the 3 fastest skiers before Christmas last year, which is still just a little more than a year ago. Since then he's had a couple of injuries too.

 

[Zoncolan]

I guess my memory isn't really up to scratch then.
I must admit I haven't seen all of the WC races over the past two seasons and the results sheet can be deceiving sometimes (snow and wind conditions, how hard someone is pushing, etc.)

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...z#!/2012/01/fastest-skiers-of-season-men.html

Same stats for the women.

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...!/2012/01/fastest-skiers-of-season-women.html

 

[Cloxxki]

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/201...son-women.html

[Clinic-untypical positive comment]

Darya's skiing is breathtaking. There is even more speed than the TV at times manages to show. She shoots quite slowly, even if she missed.
Yesterday, she was seen closing on Neuner in a downhill. The camera focussed on Neuner for a moment, and all at once Darya was a few more seconds behind again, perhaps a small stumble.
She seems to really need to let recovery do its work before she's ready for a new uphill charge. In Oslo she was seen instable on her feet going into a downhill, it doesn't come easy on her to do what she does.
Although it's been mentioned on an XC forum that she is by no means weak at doublepoling, it shows that she's no match for Neuner in a sprint to the line. There is a softness in her sprinting, it looks subdued.
Darya's climbing and even flatland skiing is so bang-on perfect, even the current crop of skiing legends would do best to take notes. She has cancelled all obsolete body moments, and managed to put great pressure through skis and poles with limited moment. Like good 5-10km speed skater, which SEEM to only step from one leg onto the other but are in fact giving it their all at WR pace.

I'm obviously a Darya fan, think she's a wonderful person. Who am I to say a for Russian champ is to compete clean? I can't, but she sure is one superstar I'll give the benefit of the doubt, until further bad associations start pooring in.
She's always been in a league of her own for ski speed, and now is surfacing on the world cup scene. I think she's become more confident that she can ski herself out of trouble in WC's, and she even kids about it in press conferences. She seems really sensitive for her shooting range blunders, but deals with it well. If she has 30s after the last shoot, just to move up from 5th to 4th, she'll go for it.
[/Clinic-untypical positive comment]

 

[jsem94]

Actually, Darya's 1-skate technique is probably one of the most elegant I've ever seen.

 

[Cloxxki]

Actually, Darya's 1-skate technique is probably one of the most elegant I've ever seen.

Is that the same as V2? It sure is amazing. Lars Berger has competition. She's stroking the snow, not rowing or hacking it.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well, then you haven't been paying attention. OEB had similar performances last winter and the winter before that.



I don't think you remember how fast OEB used to be. His average ski speed was better than his peak speed today.



Landertinger and the other austrians have definitely declined...

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...#!/2011/12/whats-wrong-with-austrian-men.html

...but Landertinger was a top 10 skier in december and a top 10 skier last week in Holmenkollen, so it's not like he's a chump now (as a skier).

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...2011/12/fastest-skiers-201112-season-men.html

http://docs.biathlonresults.com/1112/BT/SWRL/CP07/SMSP/BT_C77B_1.0.pdf

http://docs.biathlonresults.com/1112/BT/SWRL/CP07/SMPU/BT_C77D_1.0.pdf



Him and Birnbacher (and Bergman in early december) are clearly the biggest positive surprises among the established, mature biathletes.

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/20...z#!/2012/01/fastest-skiers-of-season-men.html

The Austrians were total powerhouses on the last lap and the sprint 2 years ago. Now they are just average. Defenetly fishy

 

[workingclasshero]

just returned to the forum after a year long spell off it and I've spent the evening reading all the posts in this thread. Lots of know nothing no marks coming out with the most damning of statements, which with the knowledge we have today have been shown up for their stupidity.

"Bjoergen unbeatable", "the Tour de Ski is going to be shíte and boring", "Justyna K is nowhere near her, that's proof Bjoergen is charging"

It is obvious people know far too little about peaking, the sport of cross country skiing, technique, the importance of altitude. And more than anything else, vaxing. Even though I see people throw about words thinking (or pretending) they take this into account, it's fair to say not enough emphasis is put on the combined effect of this, Justyna's early season form being the number one case in point.

 

[Cloxxki]

just returned to the forum after a year long spell off it and I've spent the evening reading all the posts in this thread. Lots of know nothing no marks coming out with the most damning of statements, which with the knowledge we have today have been shown up for their stupidity.

"Bjoergen unbeatable", "the Tour de Ski is going to be shíte and boring", "Justyna K is nowhere near her, that's proof Bjoergen is charging"

It is obvious people know far too little about peaking, the sport of cross country skiing, technique, the importance of altitude. And more than anything else, vaxing. Even though I see people throw about words thinking (or pretending) they take this into account, it's fair to say not enough emphasis is put on the combined effect of this, Justyna's early season form being the number one case in point.

Your points are not without merit.
Justyna positively surprised me. I am now of the opinion that the tour de Ski, day after day hard racing, exploits Bjoergen's near invisible weaknesses to the utmost. There may even be a clinic angle on that (not necessarily), daily controls limiting an athlete's options.
One-weekend races, Bjoergen remains quite dominant. Perhaps it should speak for her that she didn't become Lance. Beefcake goes long tour.

 

[workingclasshero]

Your points are not without merit.
Justyna positively surprised me. I am now of the opinion that the tour de Ski, day after day hard racing, exploits Bjoergen's near invisible weaknesses to the utmost. There may even be a clinic angle on that (not necessarily), daily controls limiting an athlete's options.
One-weekend races, Bjoergen remains quite dominant. Perhaps it should speak for her that she didn't become Lance. Beefcake goes long tour.

I have a slight leaning towards Justyna to beat her in most races right now and Johaug beat Bjoergen recently too. And I don't think anyone will disagree that out of the top 4 women, Justyna has by far the poorest technique, therefore she she must be the best physically. Another point towards Bjoergen not doping.

By all means, she might be on steroids, EPO, who knows? But the reasoning given by people in this thread is simply not good enough. It is not up to the quality of circumstancial evidence given for lots of the cyclists. I love a good doping scandal as much as the next clinic member but let's keep the argumentation clean

the bit about you "now being of the opinion that day after day hard racing exploits Bjoergen's weaknesses" just goes to show that you, although a keen skier and fan of the sport, still don't don't have the day-to-day mass bombing of xc skiing on your tv, radio or newspapers. This is old news to any Norwegian who takes an interest in the sport and it was also pointed out througout every win in her crazy winning streak before Christmas.

 

[Cloxxki]

the bit about you "now being of the opinion that day after day hard racing exploits Bjoergen's weaknesses" just goes to show that you, although a keen skier and fan of the sport, still don't don't have the day-to-day mass bombing of xc skiing on your tv, radio or newspapers. This is old news to any Norwegian who takes an interest in the sport and it was also pointed out througout every win in her crazy winning streak before Christmas.

The Norwegians are not exactly very sharing in their love of the sport, now are they? All in their own language which only their (often dissed) neighbours can understand.

Yeah, Justyna is not too pretty in her skiing. I can't say that she's inefficient though. Like Gunda Niemann, she gets it done. Or Ullrich. Up the tempo, Jan! He never did, he did it his way.
That Justyna is so easily beaten in a double pole sprint or at the end of a skating sprint, albeit by only one human, is perhaps a reason to trust her.
But what do we now, the two may share a blood centrifuge when on the road...

 

[Trond Vidar]

For those interested, here is Thomas Alsgaard on a recent workout in the gym, doing core strength. Retired for many years, and 40 years old.

His target this year is Wasaloppet, which is a 92km race in relatively flat terrain that requires massive upper body capacity.

The video is showing the different routines in one session. I am very impressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy9cm5NU_1M&feature=g-upl&context=G2d92da0AUAAAAAAAAAA

 

[jsem94]

Alsgaard is one of the greatest of all time. He's still got it in him. It's actually not surprising to me.

 

[Trond Vidar]

He went straight out and skied for three hours afterwards.

He shares his training towards Wasaloppet here http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1434280118

 

[meandmygitane]

He went straight out and skied for three hours afterwards.

He shares his training towards Wasaloppet here http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1434280118

FYI it is Vasaloppet, you are confusing it with Wasabröd

And there is a XC-skiing thread in the General forum, this is intended more for speculation/debunking things doping..

 

[Trond Vidar]

Too eager on the W

I will check out the thread.

 

[Ney the Viking]

Hah, just turned on eurosport, the womens tour was on, and i saw 4 norwegians cruise to victory some 30 seconds ahead of the closest competitor. I laughed and turned over to something else. At least there is still some exitement in biathlon.

 

[Cloxxki]

Yeah, excitement had to come from little Terese (hug her to pieces) winning in her hard working style. Bjoergen seemed a bit flat, but that's good enough for second whomever gets first.
Kowalczyk though, was off her usual pace. She skipped fewer races, and won many, has a right to be tired at the end of this season, lacking a Worlds. She lets the world cup lead slip thi way though, with a significant margin now.

Biathlon has the sprints today. Unfortunately the snow conditions seem to be less than stable enough to let 100+ competitors have 30s interval starts. Need some luck with the draw. The upcoming Pursuits, Mass Starts and Relays should be great. The Ruhpolding course is just wicked. It feels like F1, with a vertical factor. Walls of snow to gets over. I was flabbergasted when I skied around it. We are seeing weak shooting despite the easy run-up to the range, I think due to the really tough climbing.

 

[ophene]

Bjoergen seemed a bit flat, but that's good enough for second whomever gets first.
Kowalczyk though, was off her usual pace. She skipped fewer races, and won many, has a right to be tired at the end of this season, lacking a Worlds. She lets the world cup lead slip thi way though, with a significant margin now.

Even though I cant stand Kowalczyk I have to defend her in this race, she was really unfortunate and actually fell twice, which probably destroyed her race... She is not really that good of a technical skier, and when tired she often falls. Trying to stay with Johaug was her downfall, and she was nowhere near her Poland form.

If Bjørgen hadnt't been seek in Rogla she would have had the crystal globe in the bag but Kowa's consistency is a real problem for her. Come Oslo, Kowalczyk should beat Bjørgen, but the world cup final is advantage Bjørgen...

At least the there is still some excitement in the womens xc world cup!

Neuner is just way too good it is almost good that she's is going to retire next year. The womens biathlon needs more exitment..