Doping in XC skiing

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Jan 7, 2019
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Discgear said:
Another monster win by Johaug. She didn't comment the doping scandal in Seefeld before, but now she is ready.
https://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/johaug-forfarligt-hor-inte-hemma-har/

"My starting point is that no one that starts in a race is not involved in things like this. I do only focus on myself and my own task". Way to go Johaug! We love you. :lol:

"I'm glad that a lot of work is going on behind the curtains. Evidently there is a lot going on that we are not aware of." Really? :eek:
I guess she still believes lip-balm was an accident and nothing shady was going on...

Generally speaking though, the scizophrenia of sporting world has started to annoy me. I mean if you asked any athlete about doping, they would say that they don't do it. But it looks like many actually do. Certainly in skiing it seems like it has been kind of proven the front-runners were all on EPO in the 90's. I guess today's shady advanced methods would be revealed in 20 years' time as well.

From ethical point of view it all sucks badly. You can't trust anyone, they are all lying. Sad.
 
Discgear said:
"My starting point is that no one that starts in a race is not involved in things like this. I do only focus on myself and my own task". Way to go Johaug! We love you. :lol:

"I'm glad that a lot of work is going on behind the curtains. Evidently there is a lot going on that we are not aware of." Really? :eek:
I'm afraid these translations are a bit off. The meaning is rather:

"I always assume that no one is involved in stuff like that", and

"I'm glad a lot of investigation is going on..."
 
Jul 19, 2009
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This season, Fourcade had changed of trainer and did a different preparation.
There is no reason to change of doping method if he dopes, without being caught. If he had been caught, he would not come back next year as he promised yesterday.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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poupou said:
This season, Fourcade had changed of trainer and did a different preparation.
There is no reason to change of doping method if he dopes, without being caught. If he had been caught, he would not come back next year as he promised yesterday.

Fourcade won’t ever be caught. He is too big for the sport of biathlon to fail.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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Well Libertine, I think it may be time to put Claire Egan, a 31 year old American that that never did anything of note in xc (was a journeywoman, if I can put it that way) here in the clinic.
 
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BullsFan22 said:
poupou said:
This season, Fourcade had changed of trainer and did a different preparation.
There is no reason to change of doping method if he dopes, without being caught. If he had been caught, he would not come back next year as he promised yesterday.

Fourcade won’t ever be caught. He is too big for the sport of biathlon to fail.
You could have said the same about Johaug a few years back (and maybe you even did) and you would be proven wrong. Which does not mean that Fourcade will be exposed, but merely that the sentiment you are trying to suggest (too big = never caught) is not supported by evidence.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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PeterB said:
BullsFan22 said:
poupou said:
This season, Fourcade had changed of trainer and did a different preparation.
There is no reason to change of doping method if he dopes, without being caught. If he had been caught, he would not come back next year as he promised yesterday.

Fourcade won’t ever be caught. He is too big for the sport of biathlon to fail.
You could have said the same about Johaug a few years back (and maybe you even did) and you would be proven wrong. Which does not mean that Fourcade will be exposed, but merely that the sentiment you are trying to suggest (too big = never caught) is not supported by evidence.
Johaug’s case was quite blatant though for them to punish her. Getting popped for using anabolic steroids will not go unnoticed. What’s even more scary is the amount of Norwegians that have systematically used asthma medication over the past, well, better part of 30 years and FIS has done nothing about it.
 
Jan 7, 2019
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BullsFan22 said:
Well Libertine, I think it may be time to put Claire Egan, a 31 year old American that that never did anything of note in xc (was a journeywoman, if I can put it that way) here in the clinic.
Looking at how the thread is evolving, I guess it's easier to ask, who isn't part of the clinic?
 
Jun 22, 2010
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zarnack said:
BullsFan22 said:
Well Libertine, I think it may be time to put Claire Egan, a 31 year old American that that never did anything of note in xc (was a journeywoman, if I can put it that way) here in the clinic.
Looking at how the thread is evolving, I guess it's easier to ask, who isn't part of the clinic?
I understand that. My point with this particular post was to echo some concerns that Libertine brought up in the Nordic/BIathlon thread regarding comparisons between Nordic and biathlon.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Excellent interview with Alex Harvey. Among other topics related to his illustrious career, he discusses doping and how dopers have stolen medals, victories and podiums from him over the years. I don't sense too much bitterness, but this doesn't change the facts.

Like BullsFan22, he sees the Russians as "victims", but perhaps in a different way.

https://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/entry/now-is-the-right-time

For me, there is a difference between doping cases like Landis, or Max Hauke, and the generalized, systemic doping the Russians were caught in after the Sochi Games. Hauke and Landis made individual choices to dope and I have no sympathy for them. Ironically, because Russia has probably stolen the most medals in the last decade, I see their athletes as victims.

Talking with my former teammate Ivan Babikov, who is Russian by birth, I learned that athletes in Russia have very little freedom. Theirs is an almost totalitarian sports system, rife with anti-Western propaganda. They are made to understand that they have to cheat because all the other countries do it. Resistance may mean expulsion from the national team, and precarious consequences.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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frenchfry said:
Excellent interview with Alex Harvey. Among other topics related to his illustrious career, he discusses doping and how dopers have stolen medals, victories and podiums from him over the years. I don't sense too much bitterness, but this doesn't change the facts.

Like BullsFan22, he sees the Russians as "victims", but perhaps in a different way.

https://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/entry/now-is-the-right-time

For me, there is a difference between doping cases like Landis, or Max Hauke, and the generalized, systemic doping the Russians were caught in after the Sochi Games. Hauke and Landis made individual choices to dope and I have no sympathy for them. Ironically, because Russia has probably stolen the most medals in the last decade, I see their athletes as victims.

Talking with my former teammate Ivan Babikov, who is Russian by birth, I learned that athletes in Russia have very little freedom. Theirs is an almost totalitarian sports system, rife with anti-Western propaganda. They are made to understand that they have to cheat because all the other countries do it. Resistance may mean expulsion from the national team, and precarious consequences.
Going out of your way to specifically attack me, why? Just because I am not going to fall in line to bash everything Russian? They talk about ‘anti-western’ propaganda in a state sponsored news outlet. You are accusing me of labeling Russians as ‘victims’ and half of that article is all about Harvey being the victim of Russian doping. I don’t know what goes on in Russia, I’ve never set foot in that country, and Harvey can say whatever he wants, but not all of us will fall for the ‘poor clean North Americans, getting robbed by those pesky, dirty Russians...’. Anyway, why should it be believed that Harvey himself, wasn’t doping during his career? Because he is Canadian and he complains about Russian doping anytime he is close to the medals and doesn’t win any?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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BullsFan22 said:
frenchfry said:
Excellent interview with Alex Harvey. Among other topics related to his illustrious career, he discusses doping and how dopers have stolen medals, victories and podiums from him over the years. I don't sense too much bitterness, but this doesn't change the facts.

Like BullsFan22, he sees the Russians as "victims", but perhaps in a different way.

https://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/entry/now-is-the-right-time

For me, there is a difference between doping cases like Landis, or Max Hauke, and the generalized, systemic doping the Russians were caught in after the Sochi Games. Hauke and Landis made individual choices to dope and I have no sympathy for them. Ironically, because Russia has probably stolen the most medals in the last decade, I see their athletes as victims.

Talking with my former teammate Ivan Babikov, who is Russian by birth, I learned that athletes in Russia have very little freedom. Theirs is an almost totalitarian sports system, rife with anti-Western propaganda. They are made to understand that they have to cheat because all the other countries do it. Resistance may mean expulsion from the national team, and precarious consequences.
Going out of your way to specifically attack me, why? Just because I am not going to fall in line to bash everything Russian? They talk about ‘anti-western’ propaganda in a state sponsored news outlet. You are accusing me of labeling Russians as ‘victims’ and half of that article is all about Harvey being the victim of Russian doping. I don’t know what goes on in Russia, I’ve never set foot in that country, and Harvey can say whatever he wants, but not all of us will fall for the ‘poor clean North Americans, getting robbed by those pesky, dirty Russians...’. Anyway, why should it be believed that Harvey himself, wasn’t doping during his career? Because he is Canadian and he complains about Russian doping anytime he is close to the medals and doesn’t win any?
I am sorry you took my comments as a personal attack. Quite the contrary, I thought Harvey's take on the situation would comfort you in that his point of view tends to lend credibility to yours (ie that Russians are victims). Of course the very important difference is that he sees the Russian athletes as victims of the Russian system and society, whereas I get the impression (and correct me if I am wrong) that you see the Russians as victims of the nasty and hypocritical Norwegians and anglo saxons. What I don't understand is why when Harvey expresses empathy and understanding towards those he considers robbed him of medals, you express nothing but distain towards Harvey.
 
Jan 7, 2019
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That Russian sporting system is totalitarian sounds believable enough though. But it's not just about doping matters. Their athletes get burnt out more easily in general, due to overtraining or excessively high demands. I think in terms of sheer talent pool Russia could easily take on Norway in ski sports, but they are not able to maximize their potential due to that inefficient system.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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zarnack said:
That Russian sporting system is totalitarian sounds believable enough though. But it's not just about doping matters. Their athletes get burnt out more easily in general, due to overtraining or excessively high demands. I think in terms of sheer talent pool Russia could easily take on Norway in ski sports, but they are not able to maximize their potential due to that inefficient system.
Mostly agree. Legkov, Belov, Chernousov and co had their best results when they worked with foreigners like Cramer, Knauthe and Burgermeister and when they left Russia and trained almost exclusively outside of Russia, not because Rodchenkov saw scratch marks. Ustiugov likewise, though he was 22 when he started working with the German and Swiss coaches. Belorukova, Sedova,to name a couple, have also worked with them for a number of years now.
 
Jan 3, 2016
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zarnack said:
That Russian sporting system is totalitarian sounds believable enough though. But it's not just about doping matters. Their athletes get burnt out more easily in general, due to overtraining or excessively high demands. I think in terms of sheer talent pool Russia could easily take on Norway in ski sports, but they are not able to maximize their potential due to that inefficient system.
I was not a member of Russian (too old) but was a member of junior Soviet national team. After that I studied in a sport university, together with skiers, weightlifters, skaters, etc. After 40 I started to ski and two of my coaches were former athletes from the national ski and biathlon teams. "Resistance may mean expulsion from the national team, and precarious consequences." is pure crap (it's funny but in my sport USSR / Russia had not a single doping case but Germans / Irish / Norwegians had).
 
Jun 22, 2010
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Rider said:
zarnack said:
That Russian sporting system is totalitarian sounds believable enough though. But it's not just about doping matters. Their athletes get burnt out more easily in general, due to overtraining or excessively high demands. I think in terms of sheer talent pool Russia could easily take on Norway in ski sports, but they are not able to maximize their potential due to that inefficient system.
I was not a member of Russian (too old) but was a member of junior Soviet national team. After that I studied in a sport university, together with skiers, weightlifters, skaters, etc. After 40 I started to ski and two of my coaches were former athletes from the national ski and biathlon teams. "Resistance may mean expulsion from the national team, and precarious consequences." is pure crap (it's funny but in my sport USSR / Russia had not a single doping case but Germans / Irish / Norwegians had).
As I wrote earlier, I cannot comment on the 'system' or how things work in general in Russia, i've never been there and haven't been involved in the sport professionally, so I haven't met any professional skiers from Russia and I can't simply generalize. I can only comment on what I've experienced in the countries I've lived in and the athletes I have met, but to me it's the generalization that's still a big issue around the world. People rely too much on news. People simply 'assume' that whatever person A says, must be true. We don't want to go deeper, to do research or to ask. I could make an educated guess and say that there may be some truth on what western media 'sources' provide but it's not as extreme nor does it paint the whole picture. Likely, it's something that's in the middle. The old monicker of 'they are a closed society, it's totalitarian, state-sponsored, they are all drunk and drugged' seems to have stuck on and quite a few in the west have still latched on to that idea. It's 'likely' this happened, and it's 'likely' state-sponsored doping happened, and it's 'likely these and those athlete's were implicated....' That's what we've been told over and over again. How can we decide whether or not that's true? Is it the source? Is it results of the Russians that's worrisome? Is it when they beat athletes that are 'presumed clean?' Is it when they win that it's doping, or are they doped no matter the position? Is it the fact that for 50 years Russia was a communist country? Whose 'reports' are we to trust? If it's mentioned that it's politics as usual, then those that claim it will be labeled as 'apologists' and 'victims' and supporters of Putin and the Kremlin.
 
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BullsFan22 said:
zarnack said:
That Russian sporting system is totalitarian sounds believable enough though. But it's not just about doping matters. Their athletes get burnt out more easily in general, due to overtraining or excessively high demands. I think in terms of sheer talent pool Russia could easily take on Norway in ski sports, but they are not able to maximize their potential due to that inefficient system.
Mostly agree. Legkov, Belov, Chernousov and co had their best results when they worked with foreigners like Cramer, Knauthe and Burgermeister and when they left Russia and trained almost exclusively outside of Russia, not because Rodchenkov saw scratch marks. Ustiugov likewise, though he was 22 when he started working with the German and Swiss coaches. Belorukova, Sedova,to name a couple, have also worked with them for a number of years now.
Also in ski-shooting this applies. It's less totalitarian there but there's a lot of conflicts of interest. The governor of Tyumen is very high up in the SBR and there are very strong lobbies for particular athletes and coaches to get preferential treatment. There has been a big power struggle between the Khanty-Mansiysk power base and the Tyumen one in recent years, which has left talented athletes from smaller or lower-funded regions having to jump through a lot of hoops to get into the team while others are fast-tracked to the top even before they're ready. Anton Babikov having to win countless national calendar races, IBU Cups and European Championship races before being approved for a World Cup debut is case in point.

There was also a big problem especially on the women's side when Zaitseva retired and Vilukhina took her break, in that they lost their position in the Nations Cup - and the athletes from the 'right' regions weren't getting the results. When Tatiana Akimova finally made it to the World Cup after several years' toil on the domestic track, and then started top 10ing World Cup races, the team ran her into the ground in pursuit of the full allocation of starters. Olga Podchufarova, likewise, was run into the ground and was retired at the same age Akimova made her World Cup debut. You can also contrast the six, seven, eight repeated chances to return to the World Cup level that Svetlana Sleptsova (representing Khanty-Mansiysk) was given compared to the team throwing Ekaterina Yurlova (representing St Petersburg and Leningrad Oblast) out into the cold for poor performances. She then of course worked on her own to win her place back - jumping through the IBU Cup and European Championship hoops like Babikov did - and won a World Championships gold, after which the team has basically left her to do as she sees fit because they realise they need her.

And it's worth noting in recent years, that Russia's best performers have been those that train alone, or at least away from the main team. Shipulin worked with his own personal trainer, and his training partner was Alexey Volkov (who has been active but not good enough for even the IBU Cup this season). Yurlova works with her own personal trainer mainly in Finland (other than Kavgolovo, Kontiolahti is her most local venue and there are photos of her training there with Mäkäräinen and Gössner when she was out of favour with the Russian team). Loginov came back from his suspension and was immediately successful from working with his home trainer, because he wasn't allowed to train with the main team while suspendd, and has continued to do so because of the success he had. It's only really this year that the women's team has got over that, as Noritsyn has taken over the women's team and been a lot more pragmatic about the options (it's also worth noting that a couple of prominent ex-biathletes have taken over roles at other regional teams that has improved their standing from a lobby position - Ivan Tcherezov being in charge of the Udmurt Republic regional team, for example) as well as bringing through a lot more younger athletes for what they might achieve come Beijing rather than late 20s athletes for whom "bottom end of the top 40" is probably their peak at this stage - though the fact that Akimova, Virolaynen and Uslugina have all taken a year out for childbirth at the same time has made his job a bit easier - however they might find it a bit harder to get back into the team now that some of the younger athletes have started getting results.
 
Interestingly, Vasileva is now claiming that she only received the notification of her second whereabouts violation this week. Therefore she was completely taken aback when she was notified of her third in February, before the Canmore World Cup rounds (you may remember that the testers had gone to Krasnoyarsk, where she lives, and she was on the startlist of a domestic competition there, but was called back up to the international team for the North American World Cup rounds, and apparently hadn't been diligent enough about updating her whereabouts forms under the ADAMS scheme). Apparently this was due to have been sent out on August 17th last year, so before the Summer championships, let alone the season beginning, but she had not received this. It seems that this has been lost either between the IBU and the SBR or between the SBR and Vasileva. Vasileva claims the SBR have a copy of a letter which was dated August 17th last year but not franked until March this year, which notifies of her second violation, but whether that's because it wasn't originally sent or because it was not on file and needed to be for the sake of her case and therefore a copy was sent is unclear.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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BullsFan22 said:
PeterB said:
BullsFan22 said:
poupou said:
This season, Fourcade had changed of trainer and did a different preparation.
There is no reason to change of doping method if he dopes, without being caught. If he had been caught, he would not come back next year as he promised yesterday.

Fourcade won’t ever be caught. He is too big for the sport of biathlon to fail.
You could have said the same about Johaug a few years back (and maybe you even did) and you would be proven wrong. Which does not mean that Fourcade will be exposed, but merely that the sentiment you are trying to suggest (too big = never caught) is not supported by evidence.
Johaug’s case was quite blatant though for them to punish her. Getting popped for using anabolic steroids will not go unnoticed. What’s even more scary is the amount of Norwegians that have systematically used asthma medication over the past, well, better part of 30 years and FIS has done nothing about it.
Holy Jesus. GET CAUGHT. Man, why you can't even understand your own words...again, and again... She GOT CAUGHT, you know.

You are mixing things up. Talking about whether case is or isn't rightfully punished is different matter.

Alredy I am sorry I've reacted to you...
 
Mar 13, 2009
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John de Savage said:
The Swiss federation is quick to say they are in no way implicated, as the period in question was before the technician joined the Swiss team. Apparently Cologna isn't a suspect in the Austrian investigation (but maybe a suspect by the clinic standards…).

The police found containers of what appears to be "powered hemoglobin".

https://www.nordicmag.info/dopage-un-technicien-de-swiss-ski-dans-laffaire-aderlass-0425/
 

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