Doping in XC skiing

[Trond Vidar]

Bringing this back to Marit, she is a power skier, but only since ~2010 when she really started to dominate. Before that she was no where near the level she is now. I attritube that to crazy weight training and a serious ramp up in training. I suppose I could envision that she is doping, but I don't think she is, because it would be too obvious. Also, I know the Americans are not doping, and Randall can almost compete with Marit.

Marit also hit the wall in 2009. She had pushed too hard according to herself. in 2010 she competed in less races, and was picky on what she attended.

http://translate.google.no/translat.../sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=554359

 

[workingclasshero]

This. Courses these days are more "sprinter" friendly. Shorter laps for spectators forces this in many ways.

Have a look at Kikkan. Not as beefy as Marit, but pretty bulky too. She is doing better and better also in distance racing.

here she is for her hen do in 2007

and this is now, 2012, she still wears pink all over but certainly not as feminine anymore

that poor pu$$y is in great danger

 

[Cloxxki]

Biathlon:
Both Vincent Jay and Michael Greis hang up their skis in the early season, after not missing a stride in the off-season. Greis has been having issues for a while getting up to ski speed as expected within his team, Jay (double Olympic champ) at his young age is also not able to find the speed he needs. His (national) team mates are having no issues at all, pretty much leading the way in terms of ski speed.

Greis I've been expecting to give up for years, Jay is more of a surprise to me. I heard his Olympic wins were result of extreme visual focusing on the race course in the years leading up to it. Interesting if true, but also if an excuse for the from the outside unexpected wins.

With minor Central European countries doing more than well (especially in ski speed), and Bjoerndalen not suffering from the speed issues Jay succombs to, I feel uneasiness rising within me.

 

[poupou]

Biathlon:

Greis I've been expecting to give up for years, Jay is more of a surprise to me. I heard his Olympic wins were result of extreme visual focusing on the race course in the years leading up to it. Interesting if true, but also if an excuse for the from the outside unexpected wins.

With minor Central European countries doing more than well (especially in ski speed), and Bjoerndalen not suffering from the speed issues Jay succombs to, I feel uneasiness rising within me.

Jay's gold medal was a bit lucky with weather, he raced at the beginning with number 6, when favourites were in the second group (number >25) and faced snow and rain. He shooted perfectly, so he won. Without a missed shot, Svendsen would have won.

 

[the sceptic]

Gössner got really good after the slim down treatment didnt she? She was like 2 minutes faster than everyone else today.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Gössner got really good after the slim down treatment didnt she? She was like 2 minutes faster than everyone else today.

She did, but look at her ski times 2010-11, and remember she's still only 22. I don't know how Mäkäräinen got on today, but at Hochfilzen and yesterday they were the two fastest, easily. The topsy-turvy nature of the sprint also exacerbated things because she looked ridiculously fast amongst a bunch of slow skiers like Dorin-Habert, Skardino, Vitkova etc.; if she'd been amongst a group with Mäkäräinen, Solemdal, Berger, Domracheva et al as might be considered more normal, she'd still have been crazy fast, but not stood out quite so much. A bit like Neuner's great performance in the relay Worlds at Khantiy a couple of years ago was made to look even more ridiculous by Khvost'enko's terrible skiing form meaning she lost 1'30 over 3 laps and lost another 20" after being passed despite shooting more accurately than Neuner. Gößner has always been super quick, except last year which she didn't get right at all. This isn't unnatural progression for her. Doesn't mean she's clean or dirty, I reserve judgment on that, just means I don't think it's a shock per se. Ski speeds vary a lot more in the women's events than the men's too, possibly because the penalty loop is longer relative to course as the women ski shorter laps, and because it takes longer to ski the loop than the men take, so the weak shots need to be even faster to counter that.

The Czechs' improvements have been incredible too, as maltiv noted on the other thread in the General forum. Ondrej Moravec made Martin Fourcade look silly earlier on the final lap. He also took a bunch of time out of Svendsen but that's hard to judge since Svendsen eased up with the victory settled. Soukalová is a weird one for me. Her emergence reminds me of Solemdal last year, but at least with Solemdal we had something to judge her against. Soukalová entered two WC races last year (both at Nove Mesto) and it doesn't look like she even did too much on the IBU Cup either. Does anybody know why that might have been, eg if she was having a baby (like Flatland and Hitzer/Lang) or was injured or something? It's just that she'd never been in the top 30 before this season; this season she's never been out of the top 15 and has climbed to 2nd in the overall WC standings.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Goessner had the 2nd best time of all skaters in the relay at the 2009 nordic world championchips. She wa slike 19 then.
Actually herstruggling the last year was more suprising then her performances this year. Of course today was exceptionel, though.
I still fear she will hit the wall sooner or later, though.

 

[Kokoso]

Don't get you - why are you taking this talking this in the clinic? Only silly looking thing here is you. Fourcade's 27th time in the 5th round, so that's why he couldn't stay with Moravec. Svendsen's time was even 40th. Moravec is going well from the start of season, it's nothing out of the blue. And for Soukalova -again you clearly don't know about what you are babbling. She was always talented, only you don't know her results. E.g. in Khanty Mansiysk world champs in 2010/2011 season she was 25th in sprint and 22th in pursuit. She's still very young (1.11.1989). Last season she had some health issues (mononucleosis amongst others), but this season she's going well from the beginning, fulfilling her promising talent. Only thing is that she lacks some preparation (due to mononucleosis mentioned above), so it would be no wonder if she gets tired soon or later. More suspicious would be definitely Goessner today, although I don't think it has to be necessary due to doping.

 

[Kokoso]

The Czechs' improvements have been incredible too, as maltiv noted on the other thread in the General forum. Ondrej Moravec made Martin Fourcade look silly earlier on the final lap. He also took a bunch of time out of Svendsen but that's hard to judge since Svendsen eased up with the victory settled. Soukalová is a weird one for me. Her emergence reminds me of Solemdal last year, but at least with Solemdal we had something to judge her against. Soukalová entered two WC races last year (both at Nove Mesto) and it doesn't look like she even did too much on the IBU Cup either. Does anybody know why that might have been, eg if she was having a baby (like Flatland and Hitzer/Lang) or was injured or something? It's just that she'd never been in the top 30 before this season; this season she's never been out of the top 15 and has climbed to 2nd in the overall WC standings.

Don't get you - why are you taking this talking this in the clinic? Only silly looking thing here is you. Fourcade's 27th time in the 5th round, so that's why he couldn't stay with Moravec. Svendsen's time was even 40th. Moravec is going well from the start of season, it's nothing out of the blue. And for Soukalova -again you clearly don't know about what you are babbling. She was always talented, only you don't know her results. E.g. in Khanty Mansiysk world champs in 2010/2011 season she was 25th in sprint and 22th in pursuit. She's still very young (1.11.1989). Last season she had some health issues (mononucleosis amongst others), but this season she's going well from the beginning, fulfilling her promising talent. Only thing is that she lacks some preparation (due to mononucleosis mentioned above), so it would be no wonder if she gets tired soon or later. More suspicious would be definitely Goessner today, although I don't think it has to be necessary due to doping.

 

[Kokoso]

Sorry for my english.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sorry for my english.

This is commented on in the Clinic because if it gets talked about on the other thread, posts may get deleted if discussions turn unsavoury.

Looking at the laptimes, Moravec looks far less suspicious. More suspicious is Rastorgujevs, who was the fastest of all on most of the laps, but cos he was off-camera nothing came of it. And to be honest we're so used to Svendsen and Fourcade skiing everyone else into the dirt that it looked bad, although Fourcade's not on form.

With regards to Soukalová, you'll notice that I was asking if anybody knew what her absence from result sheets last year was about. That, for once in the Clinic, wasn't a snide, rhetorical question - it was a genuine question, because I genuinely don't know anything about Soukalová. I know she's young, but other younger talents have been developing on the WC scene for a couple of years, whereas I have hardly seen any of her, and then she's this good. Wait a few race meets until we're used to seeing her up there and suspicion will drop away. Just like it did with Solemdal, we've kind of forgotten now that in 2010-11 she was finishing 17th-18th with no penalties, and then in Östersund 2011 she was outskiing Magdalena Neuner. But with Soukalová, because of her not being on many result sheets in 2011-12, there isn't that previous level vs. the World Cup elites to compare to. Hence wanting to know why she hadn't been seen much on the WC/IBU Cup circuit last year, because if she's this talented and was healthy you'd have expected her to show up somewhere. If she wasn't healthy, then that would obviously explain it. And I must have missed her 2010-11 Worlds performances, probably cooing over some other youngsters who I thought were breaking through and have so far been wrong about - Dorothea Wierer and Sophie Boilley are two off the top of my head I thought would have come on more than they have.

Either way, Czech Republic's biathletes have stepped up across the board ahead of their home Worlds. Moravec and Vitkova were already doing so towards the end of last season, now Soukalová is joining them. That doesn't have to be a doping issue, but it is noticeable that Czech results have improved significantly thus far this season.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Last season she had some health issues (mononucleosis amongst others)

Where have I heard this before...

 

[Kokoso]

Either way, Czech Republic's biathletes have stepped up across the board ahead of their home Worlds. Moravec and Vitkova were already doing so towards the end of last season, now Soukalová is joining them. That doesn't have to be a doping issue, but it is noticeable that Czech results have improved significantly thus far this season.

Well... Look at the Slesinger. He's definitely worse than he used to be and he's been long time number one amongst Czech biathletes. And Soukup, who even reached for medal last year WC and had very good results (now is long time ill, shame for him and Czech relay). So not everybody improved. Soukalova and Moravec had very good results in younger categories (Soukalova being bigger talent, at least regarding running). For Moravec it took more time to adapt (or how to call it). Vitkova showed results like this in past. So for me there is no surprise except of Slesinger, but he is weaker mentally thus little bit unpredictable. And in the past Slesinger and other biathletes won medals here and there. So there's question if the results really get imporoved towards Czech WC. And even if yes, it would be no wonder, its their home WC. But you can't make conlusions after so few good results. I can't see anything suspicious on their performances, there's nothing out of bounds or something. Their results are based more on great shooting than running. You can find plenty od others running like them.
I just think that Soukalova is great talent. Even I think she could be a star one day, cause she's strong mentally (unlike other Czechs). And she's quite pretty as well btw.

 

[Kokoso]

Where have I heard this before...

I don't know, tell me. Are you going to say this wisely every time someone says about somebody he had mononucleosis? What sense it makes?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Are you going to say this wisely every time someone says about somebody he had mononucleosis?

Yes .

 

[Kokoso]

Yes .

Somehow you missed the other questions... So where did you get it and what's the sense of saying that just like that?

 

[zapata]

Where have I heard this before...

So, where have you heard it before?

 

[the sceptic]

Goessner had the 2nd best time of all skaters in the relay at the 2009 nordic world championchips. She wa slike 19 then.
Actually herstruggling the last year was more suprising then her performances this year. Of course today was exceptionel, though.
I still fear she will hit the wall sooner or later, though.

Yes shes always been talented. But beating another top 10 skier with 20-30 seconds on every lap? Only Neuner at her very best could do something like that.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes shes always been talented. But beating another top 10 skier with 20-30 seconds on every lap? Only Neuner at her very best could do something like that.

Those "new Neuner" tags have been like millstones round her neck for the last couple of years, but two years ago, at age 20 she was posting top ski times and on a few occasions being the fastest of everyone bar Neuner. Let's not deny that this was still an out of the ordinary performance, but at the start of the season I was hyping up Gößner as usual and somebody else posted that if she was really as fast as people said she'd be firing the shots all over the place and still skiing to win like Neuner used to... well, now she's managed to actually do it.

And really, her rate of shooting has been a part of it too - she may have missed 5 shots which is hardly atypical for her, but she got her shots away in much better time than in previous years (19th fastest range time), and saved 18" on Soukalová in the range (obviously losing way more in the penalty loops). Soukalová, by her own admission, went into the red yesterday with the chance of victory and was tired today, feeling that she may tumble out of the top 5. As a result she concentrated on making sure she got the shots right, but it did mean that Miri was out of the range before her the last time around, so she had less than a penalty loop's time to make up. Soukalová also posted her best lap time on the last lap trying to hold on. On a course with a flatter run-in where a sprint could be opened up she may have had a chance, but with the downhill run-in in Pokljuka there isn't really time to get around somebody who's got the jump on you.

Still, 1st and 2nd is about right for them, so both have a win and both have a second place; they've been the class of the field this weekend for sure.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So, where have you heard it before?

Somehow you missed the other questions... So where did you get it and what's the sense of saying that just like that?

I read about it here, often

 

[Kokoso]

Still, 1st and 2nd is about right for them, so both have a win and both have a second place; they've been the class of the field this weekend for sure.

As I said Soukalova lacks 5 weeks of training this year so she expects to go out of energy sometime. But on the other hand it shows how talented she truly is. If Gossner won't shoot better than this she won't win much races this way, either she makes more fails in shooting or others improve their skiing - the second almost for sure.

 

[Kokoso]

As I said Soukalova lacks 5 weeks of training this year so she expects to go out of energy sometime. But on the other hand it shows how talented she truly is. If Gossner won't shoot better than this she won't win much races this way, either she makes more fails in shooting or others improve their skiing - the second almost for sure.

Uhmm...five weeks, or months actually? I can't remember now.

 

[Cloxxki]

The pursuit gave us a great look at Goessner's skiing. I'd not seen much of it until today, or failed to notice.
Her form is extremely convincing. The turnover rate as we know it from the likes of Johaug and Berger, HOWEVER, Goessner completes the moves more nicely. Less hacking, more push-gliding if you know what I mean. Lots of intent in her moves. Everyone should be pretty much as tired after completing a shoot, Goessner just has so much springiness to her forms, lots and lots of pure speed pooring off. The time she makes up seems incredible, more than 150m gained per 2km lap. The level of the female racers does seem low right now, especially at the head of the pursuit, several favorites having had a bad sprint.
I'll say that I like Goessner's skiing over Neuner's. Neuner had the low turnover with super strength. Goessner seems to ski at higher intensity, and dig deep, resulting in shaky downhill on the last lap. That she no-poles her sprint says a lot about her balancing ability and leg coordination and strength. I think she's an awesome skier.

Apart from the upper arms, Randall is looking more and more like a Bjoergen. So much finishing speed. And confidence that she'll have such a big burst. I'm not quite comfortable with it anymore. Used to be a fan, liked it when she seemed to have a smaller engine and win it with guts and original ski style.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Honestly, to me Goessner''s style does not look very economic. She looks kinda hectic and is ducking a bit to much if you ask me. I think if she ran a bit more upright and at a lower cadence she would be even better off.
Goesnner trained with Neuner since she was like 16. It is said that she already had a "bigger engine" then Neuner when she was like 18. However, on skies, Neuner was much more economic and hence faster.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Torgeir Bjørn, a former Norwegian cross country skier and current physical and technical trainer for Norway's elite male biathletes, commented on the relative strength of Gössner and Neuner.

"Neuner and Gossner train a lot together, and Neuner is always better."

http://www.langrenn.com/neuner-ville-kjempet-om-seieren.4987183-197751.html?showtipform=2

The rest of the 2011 article argues that Neuner would've challenged Bjørgen at the XC WC-race in Sjusjøen, based on Tora Berger's performance in said race and a comparision of Berger's and Neuner's course times in biathlon races.

It's an interesting topic. How good are the speedy biathletes compared to the top dogs of XC skiing? I'd say it's almost hopeless to draw any conclusions about the quality of biathlon's finest skiers based on a single race in mid-november. Berger's performance paints a pretty picture indeed, but Kaisa Mäkäräinen lost ~30s on Arianna Follis in a 5k race a couple of weeks before her Overall WC winning season, suggesting the gun-nuts wouldn't stand much of a chance if up against Bjørgen, Kalla, Johaug and Justyna. It would be fantastic if Miriam, Kaisa and Dasha did the 10k at the XC worlds later this winter, when everyone should be near their peak. That would provide us with an answer.