The men's field (biathlon) is very compressed, looking at ski times. It makes for exciting races and is arguably a sign of good depth. However, I suspect it might also indicate a lack of top-notch skiing talent in the sport. In this case, we are likely to find out, as Martin Fourcade has said he's willing to skip biathlon races if necessary to qualify for the XC Worlds.
-
The Cycling News forum is still looking to add volunteer moderators with. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
She was 21st, but I presume she's better now. Otherwise, the competition in biathlon is truly awful! 
Gössner wasn't very consistent in 2009-2010 and nearly all of her best results came in shorter races (relays, prologues and a sprint). She had one top 10 result in a WC 10k race.
Gössner wasn't very consistent in 2009-2010 and nearly all of her best results came in shorter races (relays, prologues and a sprint). She had one top 10 result in a WC 10k race.
Tyler'sTwin said:
the very best can do a good race here and there but generally the biathloners are used to much easier tracks than the xc skiers and normally struggle when faced with their tracks, mainly due to the longer hills.
of course there are exceptions. But despite his dominant skiing in biathlon throughout the years, lars berger has never been THAT good when with the specialists, except for when he won thanks to starting early in the World Champs race where the conditions were awful towards the end when the best skiers went out.
We've seen Svendsen fail last season, Fourcade this, Bjoerndalen has had one spot of success but usually not been as good as we thought he'd be.
But did they fail that miserably though? I mean, Svendsen posted a very disappointing time (as did Håfsas) in the 15km last year, but then in the relay he pulled back a minute's gap in the shorter stint. Fourcade may have collapsed almost entirely in the second half of the 15km, but in the first half of it he was amongst the very fastest. That could be a pacing issue or it could be that his body simply needs those breaks that the shooting provides.
I would anticipate that the top biathletes are at a level in skating a bit below the top XC skiers, but not waaay below. After all, while biathletes do not need to learn Classic technique, training for that is more transferable to skating than the shooting training that biathletes need to do. Add to that the often tougher courses tackled by the XC skiers (apart from sharing Holmenkollen, there's only a couple of tough skiing courses in the Biathlon circuit, such as Fort Kent) and you can see the gaps created. The top XC skiers don't compete in biathlon; some competitors may shift to biathlon (Mäkäräinen and Dubarezava for example) but these are never major players in XC; while biathletes only occasionally compete, usually early-season, in XC, and have acquitted themselves well in relays.
How to actually make it a fair comparison would be difficult really. Maybe have the XC skiers skating on biathlon trails for fairness, otherwise you'd really need to give the biathlete several races in order to create a representative sample of results.
I would anticipate that the top biathletes are at a level in skating a bit below the top XC skiers, but not waaay below. After all, while biathletes do not need to learn Classic technique, training for that is more transferable to skating than the shooting training that biathletes need to do. Add to that the often tougher courses tackled by the XC skiers (apart from sharing Holmenkollen, there's only a couple of tough skiing courses in the Biathlon circuit, such as Fort Kent) and you can see the gaps created. The top XC skiers don't compete in biathlon; some competitors may shift to biathlon (Mäkäräinen and Dubarezava for example) but these are never major players in XC; while biathletes only occasionally compete, usually early-season, in XC, and have acquitted themselves well in relays.
How to actually make it a fair comparison would be difficult really. Maybe have the XC skiers skating on biathlon trails for fairness, otherwise you'd really need to give the biathlete several races in order to create a representative sample of results.
it seems you agree with me really Libertine.
fair enough, the miserable bit may have been an exaggeration but that was how Svendsen himself described his efforts last season. He won't bother again he said, looking back at those experiences.
I guess whether the biathletes have failed or not depends on whether a top 10-15 placing is considered good, but I was going off the belief a lot used to have about how biathletes would walk onto the podium with ease.
You do make an interesting point re: tracks and meeting on a biathlon course, never really thought about going that way, as in my head the 'real deal' is always the tougher track, my standing has always been 'yeah they can ski pretty, but can they graft?'
I still swing that way but I can see that not everyone does
fair enough, the miserable bit may have been an exaggeration but that was how Svendsen himself described his efforts last season. He won't bother again he said, looking back at those experiences.
I guess whether the biathletes have failed or not depends on whether a top 10-15 placing is considered good, but I was going off the belief a lot used to have about how biathletes would walk onto the podium with ease.
You do make an interesting point re: tracks and meeting on a biathlon course, never really thought about going that way, as in my head the 'real deal' is always the tougher track, my standing has always been 'yeah they can ski pretty, but can they graft?'
I still swing that way but I can see that not everyone does
It was interesting to see Sachenbacher-Stehle having rather unimpressive ski times this weekend.
Maybe biathletes are not that slow after all.
Maybe biathletes are not that slow after all.
Interesting to hear how easy biathlon courses are.
I've skied several XC courses, and only one biathlon, ruhpolding before the recent changes. I could not believe how steep the hills were. Made various Olympic XC courses look like beginner class trails. Could be my personal perception.
In my view, biathletes may not have to train their sprint speed as much, and this could benefit their endurance speed. Not having to develop technique and muscles for classic-specific skiing also helps.
While biathlon is more accessible for skiers ~10% off the pace (I believe 4% in XC is outside top-100), the top biathletes do pretty well in XC relays and such. Bjoerdalen set a best relay time once in an XC world cup. That's not a coincidence. XC'ers do try their best.
Shooting practice may take energy, but I doubt it should hurt their skiing too much if at all. People work day jobs and set national run marathon records.
I would say that if doping is any factor in XC/biathlon, that the difference between the levels of testing will decide which sport offers the fastest skater. Biahletes may have a disadvantage by being an even more elite (expensive) sport, requiring permits etc. Should keep some fast skaters out. Then, without decent classic, you're not going to be a WC XC'er. The ski times in XC seem close than the climbing times in road cycling.
I've skied several XC courses, and only one biathlon, ruhpolding before the recent changes. I could not believe how steep the hills were. Made various Olympic XC courses look like beginner class trails. Could be my personal perception.
In my view, biathletes may not have to train their sprint speed as much, and this could benefit their endurance speed. Not having to develop technique and muscles for classic-specific skiing also helps.
While biathlon is more accessible for skiers ~10% off the pace (I believe 4% in XC is outside top-100), the top biathletes do pretty well in XC relays and such. Bjoerdalen set a best relay time once in an XC world cup. That's not a coincidence. XC'ers do try their best.
Shooting practice may take energy, but I doubt it should hurt their skiing too much if at all. People work day jobs and set national run marathon records.
I would say that if doping is any factor in XC/biathlon, that the difference between the levels of testing will decide which sport offers the fastest skater. Biahletes may have a disadvantage by being an even more elite (expensive) sport, requiring permits etc. Should keep some fast skaters out. Then, without decent classic, you're not going to be a WC XC'er. The ski times in XC seem close than the climbing times in road cycling.
From what I've heard, the biathlon courses are traditionally much harder than the XC courses nowadays. At least since they put that lame altitude-level limit on XC skiing courses, which essentially is there to guarantee a bunch sprint in every single race.
Considering the level in XC vs biathlon, it's worthy to note that Berger was 7th in the opening WC race in XC skiing last year, and she's not even nearly as fast as Gössner or Domracheva.
Considering the level in XC vs biathlon, it's worthy to note that Berger was 7th in the opening WC race in XC skiing last year, and she's not even nearly as fast as Gössner or Domracheva.
Ruhpolding's supposed to be one of the toughest courses though. I suppose the nearest thing we have to a test is times set at Holmenkollen, although courses may vary, that's one that is on both calendars. The other problem is similar to the problem with using climbing times in cycling: the biathletes split into smaller groups thanks to the shooting so have less traffic to deal with, but they may also ski slower deliberately in several places in order to slow the heartrate for the shoot.
After a quick glance it would seem that the total meters of climbing in a race is set at about the same for biathlon and XC.
It would seem that biathlon allows steeper climbs (up to 25% maximum gradient), while XC can have bigger climbs (50m v 80m maximum for 1 climb).
But that's just a quick glance.
It would seem that biathlon allows steeper climbs (up to 25% maximum gradient), while XC can have bigger climbs (50m v 80m maximum for 1 climb).
But that's just a quick glance.
Libertine Seguros said:
True of course. When I was in Ruhpolding I could not believe seeing ski tracks go up the walls. So I just did it. Didn't feel like the sport I called skiing. It's like MotoX course, scaled up by factor 3-4. And you get to do it with less than one horse power.
In biathlon, you're carrying a shaky 4kg rifle on your back. That forces you to smoothen your form a bit, likely at the cost of speed although it might aid efficiency to some degree. 4kg is a lot. A 2-3kg Cambelbak is already a very signaficant thing to carry for a 90kg guy such as myself.
Biathlon offering half minute rest breaks with limited breathing does complicate things greatly. They don't ski full-out until after the last shoot.
Watched some skiing this evening. The better biathletes are just so much more technically capable than most of the XC'ers in skate. Goessner doesn't place a foot wrong, and timed every single stride beautifully. Domracheva seems to be busy conserving energy more than expending it. She's tuck deep early, and be last to go back to skating. If others take 2 steps around a bend, she'll take one and stay deep. Poetry. I like to think I ride my singlespeed MTB in similar fashion. A well-timed quarter pedal rotation here and there. Roll, roll, roll. Use the terrain, spare the chain.
Goessner does it similarly but with 10-20% higher turnover. Domracheva is all about getting skis to glide from long even pressure, even if she has a medium quick pair on. Neuner would push off really hard and lose momentum during a glide phase, Domracheva seems to almost gain speed through a glide, due to her fluent weight transfer.
It may seem as if there is a gap behind the fastest female biathletes, but then there is Kowalckzyk getting bored ina WC skiathlon when Bjoergen and Johaug don't take part.
Can't help thinking that with SWE women's biathlon "hitting the wall" after the retirements of Ekholm (Jonsson) and Olofsen-Zidek; they might do well to go raiding the X-C ranks.
Whilst it would be an aesthetic delight watching Charlotte Kalla against Domracheva; there's sod all chance they'd let her loose. Otherwise, they really don't appear to have any world beaters in the ranks. If they're not likely to do the business at X-C World Cup level, then why not have a try at biathlon where they still likely to have a pace/technical edge over the bulk of the field.
NOR men's X-C HAS had a problem producing top line "skaters" as against classic specialists; hence the periodic call on the faster biathletes for relay duty. Northug has certainly had one of these spots but the second has still been a concern. Johnsrud Sundby's major skating improvement over the past season and a bit plus the further progress of Roethe MAY bring an end to this.
Whilst it would be an aesthetic delight watching Charlotte Kalla against Domracheva; there's sod all chance they'd let her loose. Otherwise, they really don't appear to have any world beaters in the ranks. If they're not likely to do the business at X-C World Cup level, then why not have a try at biathlon where they still likely to have a pace/technical edge over the bulk of the field.
NOR men's X-C HAS had a problem producing top line "skaters" as against classic specialists; hence the periodic call on the faster biathletes for relay duty. Northug has certainly had one of these spots but the second has still been a concern. Johnsrud Sundby's major skating improvement over the past season and a bit plus the further progress of Roethe MAY bring an end to this.
Does NOR simply "lose" all their freak skating talent on biathlon?
There's been a few with uncanny skating talent. Hafsas, Boe, Berger, Svendsen, Bjoerdalen, and that's just in this generation by my memory. So-so shooters also most of them. It may be easier to find a superb shooter that skis so-so (like the French women) than such a fast skater, period.
There's been a few with uncanny skating talent. Hafsas, Boe, Berger, Svendsen, Bjoerdalen, and that's just in this generation by my memory. So-so shooters also most of them. It may be easier to find a superb shooter that skis so-so (like the French women) than such a fast skater, period.
It turns out, as reported by tv2.no, that the 2 uber dopers, armstrong and veerpalu, are role models for kowalczyk.
They also recalled that justyna criticized bjoergen for using legal anti-asthma med whilst herself testing positive for a corticosteroid 7 years ago…
They also recalled that justyna criticized bjoergen for using legal anti-asthma med whilst herself testing positive for a corticosteroid 7 years ago…
it was not just heart problem - it was arrhythmia as i posted in the general forum. that is, an irregular, abnormal heart beat having to do with electric signals of heart control.
speaking from memory, i recall some study that the incidence of irregular heart beat in athletes is substantially higher than in general population.
that said, a number drugs (even drug classes) can influence heart activity.
until we know more about the type of arrhythmia she had, any speculation would be pointless.
disclaimer: i am not a medical specialist.
speaking from memory, i recall some study that the incidence of irregular heart beat in athletes is substantially higher than in general population.
that said, a number drugs (even drug classes) can influence heart activity.
until we know more about the type of arrhythmia she had, any speculation would be pointless.
disclaimer: i am not a medical specialist.
That's how Dale Oen, the Norwegian swimmer went. It could all be a coincidence of course, or it could be a cross-disciplinary, highly experimental program.the sceptic said:
Cobblestones said:
PR speak : going to the limit in training, and beyond. Everyone knows sports are testing for the heart.
I am sad to hear such things about Kowalckzyk, I like her, but need to be realistic. So much better even than the new and improved Randall who already was a fast sprinter. It would be good if WADA arranged for a total scare-all operation the week before the Tour de Ski. Arrive to the prologue, and be sought for urine and blood samples. Just target the bookie's top-15 for the GC. Make very clear that any unexpected results will mean you raced the tour for nothing.
Cobblestones said:
Sundby had this problem last year as well. Kinda strange, but of course this could happen to everyone
Shardi said:
Having such a scare must have interrupted her program greatly, even though she was cleared by all of Norwegian medicine to start the TdS.
One thing also might be laying low. It's too obvious a thing. Blood clots or a one-hour full grown moustache would be little worse.
Randall though takes over nicely. Seems to go all Bjoergen (***) if you ask me. The composure on the skis after such an effort (not short, not long, just gruesome) is very Bjoergen like. Failed to look tired. Sorry, but I lost my fandom for her. She really won it by freeskating to wins, but this is beyong being a clever handy skier with a cute blush.
I think it's official. Randall is the new Bjoergen. She's not reached the same aerobic efficiency yet, but her pace and stability, looking solid like a guy basically are totally to Bjoergen's standards, and possibly beyond.
Commentators call it natural progression, while the likes of Northug, Kalla, Weng, Johaug all took way shorter routes to the main stage in distance racing.
From track cyclist to GT winner you say? What about from sprinter to distance racer, while becoming even stronger in sprinting? Sounds like Bjoergen to me.
Somehow adding MORE muscle helps to everything better. And for some reason, very few of the world's elite do it. Too lazy for the gym work? Not commited? No fighters?
I am very, very sceptical. Cannot bring myself to listen out Randall's interviews anymore. The Clinic did this to me.
Randall won the Prologue of the Tour de Ski, somehow esse dup the Classic 10km, and then blew everyone away by many seconds in the (long) sprint. Quali, and all rounds. Just overwhelming.
In good Clinic tradition, we need to realize she's athlete's representative (of sorts) within FIS. Front row seat. Very much respected in that capacity apparently.
Commentators call it natural progression, while the likes of Northug, Kalla, Weng, Johaug all took way shorter routes to the main stage in distance racing.
From track cyclist to GT winner you say? What about from sprinter to distance racer, while becoming even stronger in sprinting? Sounds like Bjoergen to me.
Somehow adding MORE muscle helps to everything better. And for some reason, very few of the world's elite do it. Too lazy for the gym work? Not commited? No fighters?
I am very, very sceptical. Cannot bring myself to listen out Randall's interviews anymore. The Clinic did this to me.
Randall won the Prologue of the Tour de Ski, somehow esse dup the Classic 10km, and then blew everyone away by many seconds in the (long) sprint. Quali, and all rounds. Just overwhelming.
In good Clinic tradition, we need to realize she's athlete's representative (of sorts) within FIS. Front row seat. Very much respected in that capacity apparently.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 29K
-
Teams & Riders The Great Big Cycling Transfers, Extensions, and Rumours Thread- Started by RedheadDane
- Replies: 11K
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 24K
-
-
-
Tour Down Under 2025 - Men's (Jan. 21-26)- Started by Tricycle Rider
- Replies: 229
-
Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives- Started by johnymax
- Replies: 19K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram