Doping in XC skiing

[python]

Zzzzz.

Read up on Russian women crushing Norway everywhere in 1995 with the exception of 1 race before you post the usual nonsense.

and they did it on wooden skis

 

[Dazed and Confused]

They worked well in Lillehammer though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD8jzEoRMyY

1) Thomas Alsgaard NOR 1.12.26,4
2) Bjørn Dæhlie NOR 1.13.13,6
3) Mika Myllylä FIN 1.14.14,5 (Best doper)
4) Mikhail Botvinov RUS 1.14.43,3 (Doper)
5) Maurilio De Zolt ITA 1.14.55,5 (Best Conconi-client)
6) Jari Isometsä FIN 1.15.12,5 (Doper)
7) Silvio Fauner ITA 1.15.27,7 (58% Hct doper)
8) Egil Kristiansen NOR 1.15.37,7 (Bronze medalist)
9) Johann Mühlegg GER 1.15.42,8 (Doper)
10) Vladimir Smirnov KAZ 1.16.01,8 (Doper)

so lets see... methinks the Norwegians are cleans.

 

[python]

as paradoxically as it may sound, if my posting record does not speak for itself, i am both a critical observer and an admirer of the norwegian phenomena in xc skiing.

a critical observer - because i practice, follow and love the sport, its history, particularly its dark side (for the science of which i have had a special backdoor for years). thus, disconnecting the norwegian triumphs from the stinky 90s is, in my book, to put it mildly - fanboyism.

an admirer - because the facts about the importance, popularity and omnipresence of xc skiing in norway, unlike anywhere else, are real and beyond doubt.

once upon the time this thread had been a wonderful platform for good, substance-filled contribution as to why norway is/was special or not so much...

the latest trend seems to be away from it. in an attempt to counter the trend, i am offering a counterargument (and some facts i just found) that norway breeds champions through natural selection because it has the highest absolute number of the sports participants.


while it is a fact at fis level (counting the number of fis-coded/accredited/licenced racers), it remains a big question if one lowers to the grass roots - a level where it really all counts and starts.

so i repeat my last year's questions.

does anyone know the absolute number of licensed/registered race license holders or merely regular race participants in norway (all levels and genders -from juniors to masters to amateurs etc ) ?

how many are regularly racing (locally , nationally or abroad) ?

for example, i recently found out that in russia the first questions answers - about 60,000.

the 2nd - about 10,000 of which 2700 were officially rated by the federation's ranking system.


i know all the arguments about quality vs quantity, but let's start with pure numbers...does norway top the numbers ?

 

[ToreBear]

as paradoxically as it may sound, if my posting record does not speak for itself, i am both a critical observer and an admirer of the norwegian phenomena in xc skiing.

a critical observer - because i practice, follow and love the sport, its history, particularly its dark side (for the science of which i have had a special backdoor for years). thus, disconnecting the norwegian triumphs from the stinky 90s is, in my book, to put it mildly - fanboyism.

an admirer - because the facts about the importance, popularity and omnipresence of xc skiing in norway, unlike anywhere else, are real and beyond doubt.

once upon the time this thread had been a wonderful platform for good, substance-filled contribution as to why norway is/was special or not so much...

the latest trend seems to be away from it. in an attempt to counter the trend, i am offering a counterargument (and some facts i just found) that norway breeds champions through natural selection because it has the highest absolute number of the sports participants.


while it is a fact at fis level (counting the number of fis-coded/accredited/licenced racers), it remains a big question if one lowers to the grass roots - a level where it really all counts and starts.

so i repeat my last year's questions.

does anyone know the absolute number of licensed/registered race license holders or merely regular race participants in norway (all levels and genders -from juniors to masters to amateurs etc ) ?

how many are regularly racing (locally , nationally or abroad) ?

for example, i recently found out that in russia the first questions answers - about 60,000.

the 2nd - about 10,000 of which 2700 were officially rated by the federation's ranking system.


i know all the arguments about quality vs quantity, but let's start with pure numbers...does norway top the numbers ?

Interesting, I will see what I can find later.

If you want to see some real skiing, we have mens 15+15 km champs today with 148 starters!

I think it should be available outside Norway:

http://www.nrk.no/sport/sendeplan/

Select channel sport 5 or NRK1. NRK1 might be blocked while sport 5 is supposed to be open.

 

[Cloxxki]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Canadian XC skiers?

In the tour de Ski, Harvey broke a SKI and still won the prologue convincingly. Kershaw was second. And they did great the next few days also.
Harvey didn't contest the final climb, as that hurts his leg more than his bank account and points tally. That's plausible but just strange.

And it doesn't matter this season which Norwegians show up to a race, they'll be top of class, both in XC and Biathlon. We know this from the XC women.

In biathlon, the man who chased Muelegg around back in the 90's and won most races ever is again in top shape. Marginal gains, and some extra in this Olympic year. And everybody loves him for it.

 

[Kokoso]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Canadian XC skiers?

In the tour de Ski, Harvey broke a SKI and still won the prologue convincingly. Kershaw was second. And they did great the next few days also.
Harvey didn't contest the final climb, as that hurts his leg more than his bank account and points tally. That's plausible but just strange.

And it doesn't matter this season which Norwegians show up to a race, they'll be top of class, both in XC and Biathlon. We know this from the XC women.

In biathlon, the man who chased Muelegg around back in the 90's and won most races ever is again in top shape. Marginal gains, and some extra in this Olympic year. And everybody loves him for it.

Women in biathlon aren't particularly good this year, Tora Berger is good example. Svendsen wasn't great until Oberhof. Now he's hiding somewhere again. He stands no chance in fight with Martin Fourcade if it's about all season results, but one can expect that in Sochi he'll be in great form (and Tora as well).

 

[Cloxxki]

Women in biathlon aren't particularly good this year, Tora Berger is good example. Svendsen wasn't great until Oberhof. Now he's hiding somewhere again. He stands no chance in fight with Martin Fourcade if it's about all season results, but one can expect that in Sochi he'll be in great form (and Tora as well).

Did Fourcade ever move to Norway as he announced? To get the best possible preparation, he said. Was that to scare Norwegians? Or get access to their methods?
In most countries, male biathletes need to mature. In Norway, they just need to be allowed top dog spot on the team. Johannes Boe proved that. How much faster is a man to get after 20?

Yeah, Bjoerndalen is also off doing more "altitude" training. While others just show up to Antholz and do great.
It would be interesting if the Norwegian shame went viral sometime before or during Sochi.

 

[roundabout]

Fillon Maillet. One of the best ski times today.

Doesn't need to go to Norway to fly.

 

[the sceptic]

They worked well in Lillehammer though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD8jzEoRMyY

1) Thomas Alsgaard NOR 1.12.26,4
2) Bjørn Dæhlie NOR 1.13.13,6
3) Mika Myllylä FIN 1.14.14,5 (Best doper)
4) Mikhail Botvinov RUS 1.14.43,3 (Doper)
5) Maurilio De Zolt ITA 1.14.55,5 (Best Conconi-client)
6) Jari Isometsä FIN 1.15.12,5 (Doper)
7) Silvio Fauner ITA 1.15.27,7 (58% Hct doper)
8) Egil Kristiansen NOR 1.15.37,7 (Bronze medalist)
9) Johann Mühlegg GER 1.15.42,8 (Doper)
10) Vladimir Smirnov KAZ 1.16.01,8 (Doper)

marginal gains always work better when you are the home nation.

so if that race was held today and everyone were clean, the norwegians would beat everyone by 5 minutes. seems legit.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Fourcade moving to Norway was said to be supposed to be post-Sochi, but when he first mentioned it and they did those skits with Tarjei Bø trying to find him a flat on Tollbugata "because that's where the prostitutes are" that kind of got lost from it. The Germans have awoken from their slumber this weekend too, although the absence of most of the Norwegian first team, and the absence of the Russian first team (and the Ukrainian women as well), certainly will factor into that. Also, Landertinger excepted the Austrians are back to utter anonymity. The French are going in two directions. Martin Fourcade has been below par and Alexis Bœuf not up to his best, but Beatrix, Fillon-Maillet have been better than they were earlier in the season, while Simon Fourcade couldn't make the top 60 most places before Christmas, now he's duking out podiums. Also what happened to Vítková? She's a shooting-oriented biathlete and Antholz is a shooter-oriented venue, yet she was nowhere. I mean, we know the issue with Soukalová, but Vítková was up in the podium positions last week with her, and now looks a long way from that. Nadezhda Skardino has never skied like she was doing earlier as far as I can recall either, even when she podiumed the sprint back in Pokljuka 2012.

There are too many unusual stories in Antholz with so many high profile absentees pre-Olympics and with the altitude having an effect (remember, no Pokljuka before Christmas this year, so this is the first weekend at altitude this season), for us to be able to immediately jump to conclusions. Some things look strange, and there have been three first time winners (Bescond, Hofer and Schempp). But we'll have to wait until the Olympics to see if any of it actually means anything, because of how varying peoples' form curves are in Olympic preparation.

 

[Cloxxki]

Anais Bescond won the Antholz sprint despite a shooting error. All so strange. And plenty of acne from the looks of it.
Wish I could see the sprint footage, but the torrent's not available.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

This is interesting assuming that the Conconi documents portray her EPO-use accurately.

- Di Centa var blod-dopet

Av hennes tablå kan man lese at hun 9. januar 1993 ennå ikke hadde begynt på sin «kur». Hennes hematokritt-nivå var på 38 - som er et relativt normalt nivå. Samme dag ble hun ikke bedre enn nummer 20 på en 10 kilometer klassisk i Ulrichen i Sveits.

25. januar samme år skal hun ha påbegynt sin EPO-kur i forkant av ski-VM samme år.

Resultatene lot ikke vente på seg: En måned senere - 27. februar - tok hun sølv under 30 kilometeren under ski-VM i Falun.

- Di Centa was blood-doped

Of her tableau can read her 9 January 1993 had not yet begun his "cure". Her hematocrit level was 38 - which is a relatively normal level. The same day she was no better than No. 20 on a 10 km classic in Ulrichen in Switzerland.

25 January of that year, she will have begun their EPO cure prior to the WSC that year.

The results were not long in itself a month later - 27 February - she took silver in the 30 kg box during the Ski World Championships in Falun.

38% Hct 09/01/1993, starts using EPO 25/01/1993

World Cup - Ladies' 10km C
Ulrichen (SUI), 09.01.1993

1 VAELBE Elena RUS 28:43.4
2 KIRVESNIEMI Marja-Liisa FIN +12.5
3 BELMONDO Stefania ITA +16.6

20 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +1:54.8 (+6.6%)

http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=13460&raceid=291

World Cup - Ladies' 10km F
Cogne (ITA), 16.01.1993

1 BELMONDO Stefania ITA 25:13.7
2 VAELBE Elena RUS +0.9
3 EGOROVA Ljubov RUS +32.7
4 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +55.0 (+3.6%)

http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=13460&raceid=308

World Ski Championships - Ladies' 15 km C
Falun (SWE), 19.02.1993

1 VAELBE Elena RUS 44:49.0
2 KIRVESNIEMI Marja-Liisa FIN +50.0
3 ROLIG Marjut FIN +52.9
4 LAZUTINA Larissa RUS +1:17.3
5 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +1:21.4 (+3.0%)

http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=13460&raceid=331

World Ski Championships - Ladies' 30 km F
Falun (SWE), 27.02.1993

1 BELMONDO Stefania ITA 1:22:41.3
2 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +13.7 (+0.3%)
3 EGOROVA Ljubov RUS +1:07.0
4 LAZUTINA Larissa RUS +2:48.4

http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=13460&raceid=343

 

[Kokoso]

Yeah, Bjoerndalen is also off doing more "altitude" training. While others just show up to Antholz and do great.
It would be interesting if the Norwegian shame went viral sometime before or during Sochi.

What? Bjoerndalen is racing this weekend.

 

[Cloxxki]

Oh? Didn't see him in the sprint coverage, my bad.
He's doing something outside the Norwegian system possibly, living so far away from it, and closer to Italian and Austrian specialists.

 

[Kokoso]

Also what happened to Vítková? She's a shooting-oriented biathlete and Antholz is a shooter-oriented venue, yet she was nowhere. I mean, we know the issue with Soukalová, but Vítková was up in the podium positions last week with her, and now looks a long way from that. .

You said that - in Vitkova case it's about shooting. And she shoot badly. So how could she possibly end up on the podium? And I don't know...Antholz is in high altitude so it's about skiing a lot too - if you aren't adapted or adapt slow, than it's bad for you. This is more prove of not doping.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Zzzzz.

Read up on Russian women crushing Norway everywhere in 1995 with the exception of 1 race before you post the usual nonsense.

-----------
Oh, so the doped russians of the 90s beating the norwegians are proof that norwegians doped too ? Larissa Lazutina, the big star on the russian team in 95 was banned and quit in 2002.
Gavriliuk and Vaelbe got away with their doping, while teammate Danilova also got busted along with Lazutina and muhlegg in 2002.

By the way i don't need to read up on how Norway got beat up by the soviets I used to watch that on tv.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You said that - in Vitkova case it's about shooting. And she shoot badly. So how could she possibly end up on the podium? And I don't know...Antholz is in high altitude so it's about skiing a lot too - if you aren't adapted or adapt slow, than it's bad for you. This is more prove of not doping.

Antholz's trails are among the easiest on the World Cup calendar though, especially the 2km loop, which makes the easiest course at Nové Město look like the toughest one at Ruhpolding.

Certainly the altitude does affect people and raise the difficulty, and the run-in to the range is pretty relentless (as opposed to Ruhpolding where a long downhill gives max recovery time before the shooting, hence it tends to favour the strongest skiers whereas Antholz favours the strongest shots), but the other venues at altitude - Pokljuka and Sochi - have much harder courses to ski on and thus to me it was more surprising to see Skardino on the podium in Pokljuka last year than it was in Antholz today, and similarly it would blow my mind to see somebody competing at Antholz outski almost the whole pack by 2 minutes like Domracheva did at Sochi or Gössner did at Pokljuka last year, because there just aren't the opportunities to make those kinds of gains.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

marginal gains always work better when you are the home nation.
1) Thomas Alsgaard NOR 1.12.26,4
2) Bjørn Dæhlie NOR 1.13.13,6
3) Mika Myllylä FIN 1.14.14,5 (Best doper)
4) Mikhail Botvinov RUS 1.14.43,3 (Doper)
5) Maurilio De Zolt ITA 1.14.55,5 (Best Conconi-client)
6) Jari Isometsä FIN 1.15.12,5 (Doper)
7) Silvio Fauner ITA 1.15.27,7 (58% Hct doper)
8) Egil Kristiansen NOR 1.15.37,7 (Bronze medalist)
9) Johann Mühlegg GER 1.15.42,8 (Doper)
10) Vladimir Smirnov KAZ 1.16.01,8 (Doper)


so if that race was held today and everyone were clean, the norwegians would beat everyone by 5 minutes. seems legit.

-------------
The question though is were all these guys doping in 1994 ? Another thing that has been mentioned time and again, but does not seem to sink into the mind of a prejudiced clinic-person who only looks at results, and says the fastest must be doping, is the skis and the sanding techniques invented and perfected by norwegians in the 90s.
People who actually follow skiing has seen countless races won or lost from ski preparation going well or not so well, so it's really a bit funny when this is just discounted. Like the case with the swede crushing everybody in world cup, and then ending around 30th place in the championship one week later. It's not comparable to cycling at all.
Of course going after Dæhlie and Alsgaard who are national heroes, gets us a little defensive, but really. Not one person selling their doping story about them after all these years, you really think they were so much smarter than all the cyclists in hiding their doping ?

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Oh? Didn't see him in the sprint coverage, my bad.
He's doing something outside the Norwegian system possibly, living so far away from it, and closer to Italian and Austrian specialists.

-----------
He ended 4th today, and is usually beaten by quite a margin in the track by the best skiers. It's not like he is reaching his peak at 40, it is years since he won a race, but he is just able through good shooting and professionalism to hang in there in the norwegian squad. He was beaten today by a guy that is not getting a ticket to Sochi.

Is it unusual for a guy at 40 to manage 95-98% of what he did at 30 in a long distance sport ? I don't think so. Is it not 3 years since his last win now ? And this is a guy that has 93 wins in the world cup. To say that he is at his best now would be a complete lie, but with the element of shooting, there is usually a lot of athletes that can win, and he has a chance still for more gold.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

as paradoxically as it may sound, if my posting record does not speak for itself, i am both a critical observer and an admirer of the norwegian phenomena in xc skiing.

a critical observer - because i practice, follow and love the sport, its history, particularly its dark side (for the science of which i have had a special backdoor for years). thus, disconnecting the norwegian triumphs from the stinky 90s is, in my book, to put it mildly - fanboyism.

an admirer - because the facts about the importance, popularity and omnipresence of xc skiing in norway, unlike anywhere else, are real and beyond doubt.

once upon the time this thread had been a wonderful platform for good, substance-filled contribution as to why norway is/was special or not so much...

the latest trend seems to be away from it. in an attempt to counter the trend, i am offering a counterargument (and some facts i just found) that norway breeds champions through natural selection because it has the highest absolute number of the sports participants.


while it is a fact at fis level (counting the number of fis-coded/accredited/licenced racers), it remains a big question if one lowers to the grass roots - a level where it really all counts and starts.

so i repeat my last year's questions.

does anyone know the absolute number of licensed/registered race license holders or merely regular race participants in norway (all levels and genders -from juniors to masters to amateurs etc ) ?

how many are regularly racing (locally , nationally or abroad) ?

for example, i recently found out that in russia the first questions answers - about 60,000.

the 2nd - about 10,000 of which 2700 were officially rated by the federation's ranking system.


i know all the arguments about quality vs quantity, but let's start with pure numbers...does norway top the numbers ?

------------

I do not think Norway has higher numbers of skiers than Sweden or Russia. The ski-federation has 179.000 registered skiers, but that includes all kinds of skiing except biathlon. Biathlon alone has 167 registered clubs in Norway.

The big difference that favours Norway I would guess is the status of skiing, as number 2 only to football. Swedes for instance have always been great at tennis and hockey, and to some extent athletics. Talents go to the sports that are big, and in Norway that means get your skis on.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

what was the minimum requirements to enter this race? hemoglobin over 20?

i always lived under impression that cross-country skiing is an endurance sport based on oxygen intake(for me also one of the most amazing sports that exists and toughest sport athletes too,same as cycling). but now they wanna convince me that in fact cross country skiing is more like figure skating and only one nation knows to prepare some skis. those guys from middle 90's would crush today's skiers with my brother's skiis which are in very bad shape at least

won't surprise me to hear brailsford in july afte froome hammers some record, that it was a a special lubing of the chain

-----------------
Those guys from the 90s would crush todays skiers even on bad skis ? Lets see:
50km 1994 winner Smirnov 2.07.20 (classic)
50km 1998 winner Dæhlie 2.05.08 (freestyle)
50km 2002 winner Ivanov 2.06.20 (classic)
50km 2006 winner DiCenta 2.06.11 (freestyle)
50km 2010 winner Northug 2.05.35 (classic mass start)

The times aren't that different are they ? Of course the slopes vary a lot, but still. If these guys of the 90s were so much better it should show up a little bit more in the results or what ?

 

[roundabout]

Fauner in 1995 did the 50 F in 1.56 something

Koukal won in 1.54 in 2003, but I would not bet a cent on him being clean

 

[Trond Vidar]

-----------------
Those guys from the 90s would crush todays skiers even on bad skis ? Lets see:
50km 1994 winner Smirnov 2.07.20 (classic)
50km 1998 winner Dæhlie 2.05.08 (freestyle)
50km 2002 winner Ivanov 2.06.20 (classic)
50km 2006 winner DiCenta 2.06.11 (freestyle)
50km 2010 winner Northug 2.05.35 (classic mass start)

The times aren't that different are they ? Of course the slopes vary a lot, but still. If these guys of the 90s were so much better it should show up a little bit more in the results or what ?

The 2010 course in Holmenkollen had 2000 vertical meters of climbing. It is an insanely hard ski course with no sections that you can rest. It's either really steep up or down. I would say the only place where you can actually take it easy is on the stadium. I have skied it many times. It hurts

From the list above, I am mostly surprised by the good 1998-time. If my mind serves me correct, it was very warm and the snow like slush. Not saying it wasn't fast snow, but it must have been a nightmare to ski on.

 

[Velo1ticker]

Women in biathlon aren't particularly good this year, Tora Berger is good example. Svendsen wasn't great until Oberhof. Now he's hiding somewhere again. He stands no chance in fight with Martin Fourcade if it's about all season results, but one can expect that in Sochi he'll be in great form (and Tora as well).

You have the morals like an Italian cyclist. Newspapers in Norway have the real story: http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/mesterskap/Hegle-Svendsen---Har-aldri-skutt-bedre-412387_1.snd
Published January 12.: Svendsens goes home to Oslo to stay there two days before he goes to Lillehammer. On the 24th he is going to precamp in Lenzerheide and on February 1st the teams leaves for Sotsji.
(This is of course a state secret so please do not tell anyone!)
He’s second in the world cup standings so yes he way off, not in shape at all! And Tora “aren't particularly good” – you see her in yellow bid number. yellow = total looser.

 

[Kokoso]

You have the morals like an Italian cyclist. Newspapers in Norway have the real story: http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/mesterskap/Hegle-Svendsen---Har-aldri-skutt-bedre-412387_1.snd
Published January 12.: Svendsens goes home to Oslo to stay there two days before he goes to Lillehammer. On the 24th he is going to precamp in Lenzerheide and on February 1st the teams leaves for Sotsji.
(This is of course a state secret so please do not tell anyone!)
He’s second in the world cup standings so yes he way off, not in shape at all! And Tora “aren't particularly good” – you see her in yellow bid number. yellow = total looser.

Well I wrote that on 18th and Tora wasn't first by that time, you see? You have count on time flowing by... And compared to last year she was worse this season until Antholz, no doubts.
About Svendsen I said undirectly that he is in great form since Oberhof. So I don't really understand what is your point.