Doping in XC skiing

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Sep 25, 2009
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skjoldur said:
Hadn't thought about efficiency of motion and effort development, relative to time in competition and age. Sports that demand high technical expertise do peak later. Because simply, an athlete gets better. Makes sense that would apply to x-country as well.
while in general, it is logical to assume that elite athletes (xc skiers of course belong here too), if they are still competitive, should improve their technique. sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. there are tonnes of examples including the very best...

let's start with sundby, the wc leader. his skating progress is visible, few would argue. then, we have legkov, the last season's distance cup winner, his classic style was atrocious when he was a teenager and is still hurtful to watch when he's 30. again, few will argue and even himself, a humble enough guy, admits it. then we have justyna kov., the quinn of lady's classic style, who despite pushing her 30's is still rarely competitive against the best norwegian skaters. This was not always the case. check her younger performances - she even used to medal in the olympics in skating)...and there are many more examples zero progress or real improvements. it is never a straight line proportional to their age as some naively believe. as i said, some stand still, some improve, some go backwards. There are many reasons but my post is not about sorting the reasons out.

i stress the variability and uncertainty because some take convenient positions (on both sides) and see or ignore doping behind the 'changes in technique' or the particularly popular 'explanations' by some being ahead in ski prep while others were stuck behind...

do we really need to revisit the beaten to death subjects of how norwegians were superior in this and that....and that's why they did not need to dope in the 90s.

that said, the sport of xc skiing is one of the least efficient among the endurance sports form the mechanical standpoint. whatever scant studies i saw, refer to about 10-15% gross mechanical efficiency. compare that to the cycling's 20-25%. clearly, any efficiency improvements due to a better skiing technique should results in sizable time savings, both in sprints and distances races. And it does, generally as a young talent moves thru junior, regional, national, and on to the world cup level. For example, iirc one of my own earlier posts, it was found that the Norwegian national-level sprinters are 7% less efficient than their world class. once they are on the top, they more or less settle and adopt the style and the efficiency that fits their current competitive specialty choice (sprint/distance/universal), their physiology or the immediate demands of their racing environment.

again, am NOT saying elites don’t improve their technique, but all to often the complexity of the issue it is used to hide or white wash doping.
 
neineinei said:
http://www.thestar.com.my/Sport/Oth...ng/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter



Veerpalu was working for Kazakhstan earlier in the season, doing ski preparations and testing skis for Poltaranin. It would be interesting to know if he is in Sochi.

The Russian "leak" about the results of the retests isn't very clear, one, maybe two, maybe Estonia. I suppose something is lost or added in translation. Šmigun-Vähi has confirmed she is involved (and that she had a polygraph test...), maybe Veerpalu isn't involved at all.

Yes Veerpalu is still working with Kasahstan team during olympics
http://sport.delfi.ee/news/olympia/...b-kasahstani-vormis-olumpiaradu.d?id=67765357
 
Apr 22, 2012
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ToreBear said:
As skiers train more and get older, their technique gets refined and becomes more efficient.
Logic says it should be right, but I don't think this must be necessarily true. Technique may vary during sport life of athlete.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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To be clear - technique even can get worse during some parts of career even in such short time stretch as one season is.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Veerpalu and Smigun were always suspect. In that case it'd be another medal for one of the greatest of their generation, who suffered consequences of others doping - Bauer and Neumannova. Another medal, what tehy receive by mail. That's pretty sad.
 
Apr 9, 2013
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We have all seen the chart with norwegian bloodvalues from -98 showing the norwegians having high numbers in hemoglobin in average and also high numbers with albumin. Some people said it was used as a plasmaexpander to hide use of epo. When i was Reading medical studies (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390989/) of epo-use they showed graphs how albumin increased hgb and how great it worked together with epo. When using albumin with epo once could more than half the dose of epo with the same effect in hgb. However this made me more intrested in what albumin is and i read some more about it. Albumin main feature is maintaining intravascular oncotic (colloid osmotic) pressure and it helps with transportation with substances - See more at: http://www.nursingcenter.com/lnc/static?pageid=720126#sthash.6rJAATNb.dpuf

An other study wrote suddenly ARANESP instead of albumin and i was wondering why. ARANESP i remember used by dopers in 2001-2002. Here is what Saltin said back in the Days

"But according to Dr Bengt Saltin, a leading expert on doping, the active molecule in Aranesp is "10 times more powerful" than erythropoietin, or EPO, the current drug of choice for cheaters in sport.

He says this new drug is cheaper and easier to get hold of than EPO. Worst of all, he says, the chances of it being detected by current tests are "minimal".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1789625.stm


Looking up ARANESP on drug.com describes the generic name Darbepoetin alfa. Looking that up showed this.

Darbepoetin alfa (albumin) is similar to the natural protein human erythropoietin (epo). It works by stimulating the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells. An increased number of red blood cells may reduce symptoms of anemia.

We all know what more you could do with increased number of red blood cell. This was new to me and i wonder if norway perhaps was early aranesp dopers. Think it wasnt banned Before 2001.
 
skjoldur said:
Hadn't thought about efficiency of motion and effort development, relative to time in competition and age. Sports that demand high technical expertise do peak later. Because simply, an athlete gets better. Makes sense that would apply to x-country as well.

If an athlete is genuinely clean and competitive against dopers, what a hard thankless place to be. You'd never get the credit you deserve and the validation of being purely THAT good. It behooves USADA and WADA to get it together. Which they've attempted to do. Or to realize that it's beyond control and change rules to allow performance enhancement.

Apparently I have a firm grasp of the obvious. The correlation between nudity and doping got me a little confused. I had to go down that rabbit hole.

Yep that's a thankless job. I think part of the problem is that knowledge of the other factors affecting performance than things amenable to doping, and how important they are in the overall performance is not well developed. Biomecanical research seems to have good potential in this area.

Just typing in biomechanics cross country skiing in google gives a wealth of articles and information. Due to technology development of measurement tools, new avenues of research seems to be opening. So if you are interested, that is a good place to start.

As for the nudity, I think some have the idea you can see who is doping. This took on ridiculous levels relating to cycling a while back.

But anyway enjoy the olympics, and IMHO xc skiing is the cleanest endurance sport that I can think of. This has to do with the history of the sport and the early involvement and dependence on WADA.

Enjoy the Olympics, I know I will.:)
 
Kokoso said:
Veerpalu and Smigun were always suspect. In that case it'd be another medal for one of the greatest of their generation, who suffered consequences of others doping - Bauer and Neumannova. Another medal, what tehy receive by mail. That's pretty sad.
Why would Bauer have lost more medals to dopers than taking them from the clean?
Central Europe has a pretty bad reputation. Bauer hit the scene and just showed greater horsepower. And then faded, perhaps when testing got in the way?
I was a Bauer fan until I started visiting The Clinic. If he was beating dopers to the TdS win 9amongst others), he is the greatest of all time. What are the odds of that?
 
Bavarianrider said:
Björgen might as well compete in the mens races from here on. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sometimes it's kind of hard to appreciate her total dominance. I wonder if there's anyone outside Norway and Sweden who thinks she's fair play?
Have we ever seen anyone else combine such extreme muscle mass with superior endurance?

My prediction is that Heidi Weng is going to be equally dominant in a year or two. They seem to be shaped in the same way.
 
Discgear said:
Sometimes it's kind of hard to appreciate her total dominance. I wonder if there's anyone outside Norway and Sweden who thinks she's fair play?
Have we ever seen anyone else combine such extreme muscle mass with superior endurance?

My prediction is that Heidi Weng is going to be equally dominant in a year or two. They seem to be shaped in the same way.
Heidi's got a long way to go before she is shaped the same way as Marit.

5243942_1981368.jpg


Also, Heidi keeps doing things like finishing on the podium of the Lysebotn Opp, which I wouldn't think is really powerhouse territory:

Lysefjordsveien.gif


(as far as Øygardstøl)
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Cloxxki said:
Why would Bauer have lost more medals to dopers than taking them from the clean?
Central Europe has a pretty bad reputation. Bauer hit the scene and just showed greater horsepower. And then faded, perhaps when testing got in the way?
I was a Bauer fan until I started visiting The Clinic. If he was beating dopers to the TdS win 9amongst others), he is the greatest of all time. What are the odds of that?
I don't understand the first question, genuinly. Central Europe has bad reputation? Why? And what countries do you count for Central Europe? He faded and that has somethind to do with fact that he's getting older and unlike some others, for instance Chris Horner, his performance naturally gets worse.
Yep, he really is one of the greatest of all time. So, cheer for him cause now he's even older then last year :)
 
Bjørndalen shot 8.2 sec faster than Landertinger on the final shoot! Lander was under 2 sec behind at the finish.

B had the second fastest shoottime overall, and third fastest time in the ski.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Yup, sorry to say it, but Bjørndalen outskiing Martin Fourcade and Emil Hegle Svendsen on one of the tougher sets of trails in world biathlon really, really needs to be here.

Agreed. I thought Fourcade & Svendsen would be dominant on this course, but not in the least bit. A lot of guys performed well today.
 
I mean, I know a lot of people peak specifically for this event and last year's event was late in the season so a lot of tired legs, but at last year's event the gaps in ski time were much larger than today.

And I also know that Bjørndalen has been on the podium a few times this season and has been strong, so it would make sense that if both Fourcade and Svendsen fail to capitalise on their best form, he would be one of those in line to capitalise. But his results had been waning since 2010, each season he was becoming less competitive and by last season only competing for the podium positions on occasion, and then this season he's suddenly back among the podium contenders almost whenever he wants to be. I find it concerning.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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What about Austirans? Any ideas? Eder faster on skis then many? Landertinger out of his slump just in time? That's concerning too.