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Doping in XC skiing

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Dazed and Confused said:
The is the secret to OEB's resurrection:

walk-barefoot-01.jpg


Harder, more painful training regime than the others.

For us who have loved and followed the sport for a long time, those kind of arguments doesn’t bite anymore. I loved to hear the stories about Mika Myllale and his preseason training, running thru the swamps and fighting against millions of mosquitos and extreme weights tied around his chest. Or the stories about Mühleggs asceticism and mental training, not to mention a wellknown rider fighting cancer and coming back as a winner of TDF. Time after time, almost all superhumans – with remarkable training stories in endurance sports – have been exposed as simple cheaters. Except the Norwegians of course, who count in the biggest ever Olympians during the very same decades.
 
Discgear said:
For us who have loved and followed the sport for a long time, those kind of arguments doesn’t bite anymore. I loved to hear the stories about Mika Myllale and his preseason training, running thru the swamps and fighting against millions of mosquitos and extreme weights tied around his chest. Or the stories about Mühleggs asceticism and mental training, not to mention a wellknown rider fighting cancer and coming back as a winner of TDF. Time after time, almost all superhumans – with remarkable training stories in endurance sports – have been exposed as simple cheaters. Except the Norwegians of course, who count in the biggest ever Olympians during the very same decades.

to well dope is just as much a skill in sports as anything else. complaining, allways complaining :rolleyes:
 
Apr 9, 2013
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There has been a discussion about norwegians Albumin levels from -98 shown here (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BGT4SY6CYAAMLiv.png:large). The average values with Albumin was higher than could be expected and that could be proof of norwegians used albumin as plasma expander to hide epo use. I´ve read some studdies and found some things about albumin that i thought intresting. (http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/1/98.full)

" Serum albumin concentration was related to the baseline Hgb concentration and its change over time. The mean Hgb concentration was 12.6 g/dl at an estimated albumin concentration of 4 g/dl and was 0.73 g/dl higher with each 1-g/dl increase in albumin (P = 0.01). In those patients where serum albumin concentration is high, Hgb also appears to be high and vice versa. Albumin increase over time was associated with an increase in Hgb."

This means that Albumin levels raise constant to raise in hgb. So we could expect high levels of albumin in the norwegians blood because of the high levels hgb and not as a factor from albumin in a plasma expander.

However this study also shows that when using epo one could more than half the doze of epo with the same result also adding a doze of albumin. This shown in this graph (http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/1/98/F4.medium.gif)

This dont explain the high mean value hbg in the norwegians blood but the albumin values dont necessarily explain hiding dopin.

But we now know that albumin level can show as teller if the hgb level is corect. If we see a bloodsample with high numbers hgb and its explained with poor Equipment and so on the albumin level should be low. If there is a high albumin level the high hgb level is corect.
 
Really don't like the results in either of the biathlon races so far. So many surprising results...it's downright absurd.

Lots of people who have been minutes behind the best skiers all season, who suddenly are on par with Fourcade or Domracheva.
 
May 25, 2009
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Time gaps as a whole seem fairly small, which I guess must reflect the course somehow? Easy shooting is playing a role too

I think the course maybe got faster as the race went on, for the women? Lots of 30+ numbers doing well. Though Bescond was very fast going off early.

Of course, the performance of Kuzmina and Shipulin, brother and sister, is notable.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Theres always someone that comes out of nowhere in the first race. Pidrushna at the worlds last year was super obvious too when she was suddenly skiing with the best.
 
maltiv said:
Really don't like the results in either of the biathlon races so far. So many surprising results...it's downright absurd.

Lots of people who have been minutes behind the best skiers all season, who suddenly are on par with Fourcade or Domracheva.
shh, or bore t(h)rea(d) will come and tell you it's called peaking and only natural that 40yo has beens suddenly discover the winning form.

gotta give it to OEB tho. so blatant that it's funny, just like horner.
 
meat puppet said:
shh, or bore t(h)rea(d) will come and tell you it's called peaking and only natural that 40yo has beens suddenly discover the winning form.

gotta give it to OEB tho. so blatant that it's funny, just like horner.
To be honest I think others have been much more blatant. Oberhofer, Eder, Kuzmina, Wierer, Soukop...the list goes on and on. All of whom haven't been close to the top 10 fastest skiers this year, then comes the olympics and bam.
 
maltiv said:
To be honest I think others have been much more blatant. Oberhofer, Eder, Kuzmina, Wierer, Soukop...the list goes on and on. All of whom haven't been close to the top 10 fastest skiers this year, then comes the olympics and bam.

Wierer's had quite a few top 10s that way this season. She isn't fast but she shoots quicker than anybody else (Fastest range time at nearly every race for two and a half years). Kuzmina's been one of the fastest all season as well. When she won in 2010 it was far more shocking than this. I'm actually amazed she's not won prior to this this season.

That doesn't mean she's not doping, just that Kuzmina winning after hitting 10/10 and Domracheva, Mäkäräinen and Berger all missing targets is not shocking.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Wierer's had quite a few top 10s that way this season. She isn't fast but she shoots quicker than anybody else (Fastest range time at nearly every race for two and a half years). Kuzmina's been one of the fastest all season as well. When she won in 2010 it was far more shocking than this. I'm actually amazed she's not won prior to this this season.

That doesn't mean she's not doping, just that Kuzmina winning after hitting 10/10 and Domracheva, Mäkäräinen and Berger all missing targets is not shocking.
It's not, no, but the gap she wins by is.

I guess one explanation for the weird results is that the course seems to be quite easy, it's quite unusual that there's so little difference in skiing time.
 
Feb 6, 2014
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TomasC said:
Alright, can we see more nude FEMALE biathletes/skiers to assess who is doping and who not?

Team USA? Kikkan's mother Deborah Randall thinks she'll take over from Lindsey Vonn as the next blonde bombshell sports figure.

Outside Magazine today on Facebook -
Kikkan Randall is the most exciting thing in cross-country skiing since... forever

Anchorage Daily News:
'She's determined to change the face of her sport in this country forever'

Kikkan Randall is chasing gold at the Winter Olympics not just because an Olympic medal is the only thing lacking from her resume. She is doing it to make cross-country skiing cool.
"She's determined to change the face of her sport in this country forever, ...supporting her teammates around her and (lifting them) to their best.
Randall's personality is perfect for the heats -- long ago, she nicknamed herself Kikkanimal, a name that suits the ferocity she displays in competition -- and she thrives in the head-to-heat format.
Winning an Olympic medal could make Randall a household name... Winning one in an event that defies the image many Americans have of nordic skiing could transform the sport permanently.
Randall has already started the process with her continued, unprecedented success in the last several years. She spent much of her off-season last year doing interviews and filming commercials, and now that the Olympics are here, the spots are getting air-time and the Lower 48 is getting to know her.
"It's really cool to finally see cross-country get on the map and have people get interested," Randall said.
 
maltiv said:
It's not, no, but the gap she wins by is.

I guess one explanation for the weird results is that the course seems to be quite easy, it's quite unusual that there's so little difference in skiing time.

It is indeed unusual to see such clustered ski times, but on the course, this is no Vancouver (that really was a pretty easy track); the test events showed that Sochi's ski trails are in fact very difficult, and they haven't radically reprofiled them (in the individuals last year both Martin Fourcade and Darya Domracheva absolutely annihilated the field for course times, and when they talked to Miriam Gössner after the relay win for the Germans she talked of how excited she was to have such a difficult course in the Olympics with such severe climbing). However they have widened and safened a couple of points on the descent, most notably that difficult switchback where Maxim Tsvetkov was launched into a tree during the men's sprint there last season, so perhaps they've neutralised the descending part of it enough, and the run-in to the range is pretty easy, so that multiple misses like we saw from Soukalová are the exception rather than the norm. As we haven't seen any of the head to head racing yet, we haven't yet seen the shots of the course from the stadium section to the back part of the course, which last year had a very steep incline.
 
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The US women are widely expected to get gold. A lot of expectation.

Fasterskier:
The United States of America put on a man on the moon 43 summers ago. You wouldn’t think, really, that it would take until Sunday to put four American women on the podium in a World Cup cross-country relay ski race for the very first time.
Jessie Diggins, the American anchor, outsprinted Marthe Kristoffersen of Norway II as the U.S. women’s 4 x 5k relay team claimed third place Sunday at the World Cup relay in Gallivare, Sweden.
It just goes to show you two things:
One, nothing is impossible. Americans genuinely can excel at cross-country skiing.
Two, when Americans make something a priority, they are as good at it as anybody in the world.

This is the lesson of the U.S. Nordic combined team at the Vancouver 2010 Olympics, and this is what the U.S. cross-country team is aiming to show the world in Sochi in 2014.
Norway I won, in a time of 45.32.2; Sweden took second, in 45.51.6. The Americans: 46.00.4. Norway II: 46.00.9, just five-tenths of a second behind.

All the signs were there for this on Saturday, when Kikkan Randall finished third in the 10k and Holly Brooks fifth. Liz Stephen had been among the race leaders but broke a pole and ended up 21st. Randall was last year’s World Cup sprint champion. She and Brooks, in an interview late Saturday, had talked about how so much was changing.
You can see it, they said, in attitudes, and not just within the U.S. team — where there is the absolute, unconditional belief that they can win — but from others, and in particular the Scandinavians, who long had dismissed the Americans. Now, both said, other teams wanted to know whether the Americans would be interested in training with them. That never used to happen, they said.
Brooks went first, skiing the first of the two classic legs. She skied solidly, 11.2 seconds out, in eight place. Randall then skied the fastest classic leg of the day. She moved the Americans up into second, 8.2 seconds back of Norway I. As the race moved to freestyle, Stephen got the Americans to within 4.2 seconds of Norway I.
Diggins went out knowing that Sweden’s anchor, Charlotte Kalla, the Vancouver 2010 10k gold medalist, would probably overtake her. Which Kalla did.
After Diggins collapsed onto the snow, the other Americans spent maybe 10 minutes in the finish area. There were hugs. There were tears. The TV cameras couldn’t get enough.

About that 'peaking at 30/40' thing. And apparently "mental strength" dominates over performance-enhancement programs and levels the playing field. So no excuses! It's just a matter of wanting it bad enough (all things being equal with training and equipment, which it is).

U.S. cross-country skiing breakthrough
But for Kikkan Randall to finish third, and fellow American Holly Brooks fifth, in the women’s 10-kilometer freestyle event on Saturday in Gallivare, Sweden, 62 miles north of the Arctic Circle, the opening cross-country World Cup meet of the season — that is big stuff looking toward the Sochi Olympics, now just a little bit over 14 months away.

The Norwegians, as usual, dominated both the women’s and men’s events. Marit Bjoergen captured her 56th individual victory, winning in 22:31.8. Another Norwegian, Therese Johaug, took second, 12.6 seconds behind. Randall crossed 25.9 seconds behind, with Charlotte Kalla of Sweden fourth, 15.92 back.

Bjoergen has seven Olympic medals, three gold. Johaug won gold in Vancouver in 2010 in the women’s 4 x 5k relay. Kalla is the Vancouver 10k gold medalist.

Martin Johnsrud Sundby won the men’s 15k — his first World Cup win and just second individual win overall — in 30.37. Alexey Poltoranin of Kazakhstan took second, 8.9 seconds behind; Sweden’s Marcus Hellner took third.

The United States has not earned an Olympic medal in cross-country skiing since Bill Koch’s silver in Innsbruck in 1976 in the 30k. But like the U.S. Nordic combined team, which broke through to win four medals in Vancouver in 2010, the trajectory of the U.S. cross-country team — as Sochi draws into view — would seem to be pointing in the right direction.

Randall, already a three-time Olympian, is last season’s World Cup sprint champion. Brooks skied on the Vancouver Olympic team. Both are based in Alaska. Brooks turned 30 earlier this year. Randall will turn 30 at the end of December.
“I like to say cross-country skiers are like fine wine,” Randall said Saturday after the race, adding, “We get better with age. It just takes a lot of years to train the systems for endurance sports. You see it in triathlon, you see it in marathon … it takes maturity and experience.” It takes mental strength.

For far too long, she explained, “American skiers have looked at Scandinavians and automatically put them on a pedestal. We have thought they are better than we are. That they are superstars. That they grow up on skis, have skiers on cereal boxes and we are just not as good.”

Out of 77 racers — one more did not start — Brooks drew the number six start slot Saturday. She posted sweet splits but thought little about it, knowing the seeded group of racers, those expected to break through to the podium, were coming much later in the day. She crossed in 23:00.3.
When she finished, as the race leader, Brooks was led to the reindeer-skin leader’s chair. And there she sat — for a very long time. Through the racers who drew start slots in the teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, even into the 50s. “They kept telling me, ‘You can get up and do something. I was not to get up and leave. As far as I was concerned, that was the best seat in the house.’ “
Randall drew start slot 56. She had intended for the race Saturday to be nothing more than a hard workout. Still recovering from a stress fracture in her right foot at the end of the summer, she spent September — when she typically is ramping up for the season ahead — on a doctor’s-orders 50-percent reduction in her training that included running not on dry land but in a pool.
Upon arrival in Europe, last week, she still had not done any demanding intervals. Then, on Friday, the U.S. team did a workout and, she said, it felt “surprisingly good.”
The real surprise, though, was Saturday’s third-place. It marked Randall’s first-ever non-sprint podium finish.
“The joke on the World Cup circuit now is that everyone needs to do intervals in a swimming pool,” Brooks said, laughing.
Seriously, though — two Americans in the top five. This is how Olympic medals — plural — become real possibilities. Another American with experience in the Vancouver Olympics, Liz Stephen of East Montpelier, Vt., who turns 25 in about a month, was skiing in the top five before crashing and breaking a pole; she finished 21st.

“It’s breaking down the barriers and doing this once and making sure you don’t underestimate yourself,” Brooks said. “If I can do this once, I can do it again. If I can do it. my teammates can do it.”

Before Saturday, the refrain had always been, as Brooks noted, “Oh, you’re just an American and an American has never been on a distance podium before.” She paused. “There’s no way. Having these results,” she said, “is contagious.”

46246_10152293818765613_319862569_n.jpg


They're going to be taking everybody out in the next few days. The Americans train with the Norwegians.
 
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Norway's 2010 Coach of the Year Frode Lillefjell coached Kikkan Randall and Alaska Pacific University Nordic Ski Center since 2001.
Liz Stephen and Randall stayed with Petter Northug in Norway.
The US Team has a close relationship to Alaska Pacific University, heavy investment from British Petroleum (a USOC sponsor).
At least 6 of the 7 US women and one of the men at Sochi train at APU's ski center. Um, do the math on that.

What does that mean? Well, nothing. American elite-level cross country skiers are a small family. Not many of them. They all know each other. The ski team is composed of members who are not all students at APU, but are members of the community funded by APU.
 
Somewhere up above clocxii asked about Harvey and Kershaw. Alex's genetics surely play a part in his success. Was excellent from a young age. Used to coach at races where Devon skied (and raced him once or twice). Clearly superior talent then.

I'd put the general increase in Canadian success down to less doping from the Norwegians, Italians, Finns and Russians now. As a nation we were clueless as to the depth of top level doping from 1988 to 2006 ( to pick the cycling year). Never came up in conversations even though we were dealing with junior elites. Thunder Bay 1992 was hilarious for the doped up ones. Wonder if the heavy stuff started earlier with Skiers with Conconi than for cyclists.
 
So was Svendsen hampered in his preparation by having lots of doping tests in a short time? He was feeling targeted, I hear?
Losing so much ski time on OEB is, well, "not normal".

Neither was how easy Bjoergen stayed with that acceleration of Kalla. 5-minute climb, many extra kgs of muscle mass. While dropping the best (admittedly, non-explosive) climber on the tour.

BTW, did you notice that Bjoergen's downhill speed in the skate leg was up to 72 or 73kph, while the men didn't manage any faster the day after? Could be snow. That extra mass of Bjoergen sure descends well. Commentators spoke of having 5kg over Johaug, but surely it must be closer to 15kg?
 
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Original research. Sometimes it's good to go home to mama.

Inst. J. Sports Med. 8 (1987) 231-233
© Georg Thieme Vetlag Stuttgart • New York

Effect of Reinfusion of Autologous Blood on Exercise Performance in Cross-country Skiers
B. Berglund and P. Hemmingson
Departments of Medicine and Clinical Physiology, Karoiintka Hospital Stockholm, and Department of Surgery, Östersunds lasarett, Sweden

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/R069.pdf
 
Apr 22, 2012
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maltiv said:
To be honest I think others have been much more blatant. Oberhofer, Eder, Kuzmina, Wierer, Soukop...the list goes on and on. All of whom haven't been close to the top 10 fastest skiers this year, then comes the olympics and bam.
None of Oberhofer, Eder, Wierer had top ten ski time. On the contrary, Kuzmina is one of the fastest all season.
Soukup improved a lot, but he showed what he's capable of in the past.
 
roundabout said:
Over in the archive section

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/sp...=tw-share&_r=0

Quote:
He told me that two biathletes from those Games had also tested positive for the drug on the final day, but that he and the International Olympic Committee president at the time, Jacques Rogge, had decided against pursuing their cases because “it would raise a huge stink around the world.”

???

This article in NY Times is pure dynamite. So Rogge and IOC didn't go forward with the two biathlets since "it would raise a huge stink around the world"! Well, they didn't hestitate to go forward with three goldmedalists in the same Olympics: Mühlegg, Danilova and Lazutina.

What could possibly cause a greater stink? Lazutina took 5 medals in the previous Olympics Nagano 1998, among them three golds. Danilova took three in Nagano, among them 2 golds.
Well I think it’s fair to assume that the biathletes that also were doped in Salt Lake City 2002 must at least have being gold medalists, based on the “stink” quote.
So recapitulating; we had multiple Olympic gold medalists in a German competing for Spain and two Russian ladies that was charged as dopers – but the two biathletes that showed positive tests for darbepoetin was not put forward by president of IOC since it would be raising an even greater stink around the world.

Salt Lake 2002 was the big game for Ole Einar Bjoerndalen. He took all gold medals, three individual and the relay. Among the ladies Germany was successful. Henkel and Wilhelm took one each and Germany also won the relay.

A safe bet would be that the great stink would have been caused by either the duo Henkel/Wilhelm or Ole Einar Bjoerndalen in combination with another Norwegian, or one of the German ladies.