Doping in XC skiing

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Aug 9, 2012
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Random Direction said:
Somewhere up above clocxii asked about Harvey and Kershaw. Alex's genetics surely play a part in his success. Was excellent from a young age. Used to coach at races where Devon skied (and raced him once or twice). Clearly superior talent then.

I'd put the general increase in Canadian success down to less doping from the Norwegians, Italians, Finns and Russians now. As a nation we were clueless as to the depth of top level doping from 1988 to 2006 ( to pick the cycling year). Never came up in conversations even though we were dealing with junior elites. Thunder Bay 1992 was hilarious for the doped up ones. Wonder if the heavy stuff started earlier with Skiers with Conconi than for cyclists.
Again, there is no indication of any Norwegian doping. These are clinic theories not supported by any positives/police revelations/tell all books/death bead confessions etc.

The Italians have the Coni investigation revealing things.
The Finns had the 2001 tests, and the follow up.
The Soviets had positives to numerous to mention.

I have a hard time seeing any junior doping from any of the above(maybe Russian individuals). It wouldn't make sense to dope your juniors. Dope is/was expensive, and that money would be used for the big senior races.

Thunder Bay was in 1995 with weird snow conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships
 
Aug 9, 2012
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Discgear said:
This article in NY Times is pure dynamite. So Rogge and IOC didn't go forward with the two biathlets since "it would raise a huge stink around the world"! Well, they didn't hestitate to go forward with three goldmedalists in the same Olympics: Mühlegg, Danilova and Lazutina.

What could possibly cause a greater stink? Lazutina took 5 medals in the previous Olympics Nagano 1998, among them three golds. Danilova took three in Nagano, among them 2 golds.
Well I think it’s fair to assume that the biathletes that also were doped in Salt Lake City 2002 must at least have being gold medalists, based on the “stink” quote.
So recapitulating; we had multiple Olympic gold medalists in a German competing for Spain and two Russian ladies that was charged as dopers – but the two biathletes that showed positive tests for darbepoetin was not put forward by president of IOC since it would be raising an even greater stink around the world.

Salt Lake 2002 was the big game for Ole Einar Bjoerndalen. He took all gold medals, three individual and the relay. Among the ladies Germany was successful. Henkel and Wilhelm took one each and Germany also won the relay.

A safe bet would be that the great stink would have been caused by either the duo Henkel/Wilhelm or Ole Einar Bjoerndalen in combination with another Norwegian, or one of the German ladies.
They should have at least 5 samples from Bjørndalen going by his placings. Not being able to find enough supporting evidence in 5 samples seems strange.

As for stink and Lawsuits? I don't know who that could be. Could be anybody.
 
Sep 8, 2009
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yes it could be anybody, it could be the russian biathlete oleg bernodov

just like in cycling, there must be hundreds of hidden positives. that's why tests will never matter. even if there are the best tests ever, the humans look at them. so yeah tests mean shiit
 
May 19, 2010
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ToreBear said:
They should have at least 5 samples from Bjørndalen going by his placings. Not being able to find enough supporting evidence in 5 samples seems strange.

As for stink and Lawsuits? I don't know who that could be. Could be anybody.
They had plenty of samples from Mühlegg taken at the Salt Lake Olympics too. FIS was after him, no doubt targeting him. He'd managed to avoid the OOC testers prior to the Olympics.Even if he hadn't been on the podium they should have picked him for testing at every opportunity. Still the positive test was from the 50 km, the last of the individual races. Lazutina's positive was from a test taken after the relay she didn't get to go because of too high hem. It was on February 19. She'd been on the podium prior to that too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z8qe7YWDOQ
 
Aug 9, 2012
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neineinei said:
They had plenty of samples from Mühlegg taken at the Salt Lake Olympics too. FIS was after him, no doubt targeting him. He'd managed to avoid the OOC testers prior to the Olympics.Even if he hadn't been on the podium they should have picked him for testing at every opportunity. Still the positive test was from the 50 km, the last of the individual races. Lazutina's positive was from a test taken after the relay she didn't get to go because of too high hem. It was on February 19. She'd been on the podium prior to that too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z8qe7YWDOQ
More than 5 in competition tests?(you don't need to answer that)

If you are so sure you should be less vague in your counter arguments. And posting a youtube video of the race doesn't say anything about what you said.

I get your point that the other samples might have problems, so I guess we are back at square one.

But remember Muhlegg was observed by the testers trying to dilute his urine with a ton of water. They got him because they decided to wait until after the medal ceremony when his urine would be less diluted. I would think they were sharp enough to notice such behavior in any of the athletes, and would hence follow the same procedure.

Now I'm writing something from memory without a direct link. But I'm telling you this now. I'm being intellectually honest. Using IIRC or something like that should do nicely as well.

Had I been very into this issue I would have asked for a source.

As it is, I don't really see anything worth spending time on.

Urging you to improve your posting quality is however worth a little time.:)

Otherwise point taken.
 
May 19, 2010
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ToreBear said:
More than 5 in competition tests?(you don't need to answer that)

If you are so sure you should be less vague in your counter arguments. And posting a youtube video of the race doesn't say anything about what you said.

I get your point that the other samples might have problems, so I guess we are back at square one.

But remember Muhlegg was observed by the testers trying to dilute his urine with a ton of water. They got him because they decided to wait until after the medal ceremony when his urine would be less diluted. I would think they were sharp enough to notice such behavior in any of the athletes, and would hence follow the same procedure.

Now I'm writing something from memory without a direct link. But I'm telling you this now. I'm being intellectually honest. Using IIRC or something like that should do nicely as well.

Had I been very into this issue I would have asked for a source.

As it is, I don't really see anything worth spending time on.

Urging you to improve your posting quality is however worth a little time.:)

Otherwise point taken.
Having to state "I'm being intellectually honest" usually isn't a good sign. But as you haven't mentioned pedophiles or neuronal degradation in the frontal lobes in the post maybe you now are giving it a try.

What was so offensive about the video of Mühlegg trashing everybody in the first race of the Salt Lake City Olympics? Was it the Swedish commentators? Watching Elofsson breaking himself trying to follow Mühlegg? Or watching Bjørndalen having his best skiing form ever? The double gold winner from the Lahti 2001 FIS World championship was crushed. Bjørndalen went on to win all the biatlon gold medals.

Why are Bjørndalens negative tests taken right after races so valuable when you know Mühlegg was caught in a test taken after a medal ceremony and Danilova and Lazutina tested positive a day when the they didn't race? Their tests were first found negative. It took retesting to catch them. Bjørndalen, Mühlegg, Lazotina and Danilova all tested negative after races. That much we know. What we don't know is if Bjørndalen tested negative after all his races. Two biathlets tested positive and got away with it. That is a fact.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Have any of you noticed that Bjoerndalen will empty a water bottle before talking to a coach after a race? Trying to hydrate, and no excuses there :)
Seem to remember seeing Bjoergen do it also while being handled by doping tester, but don't hold me to that.
 
Jun 25, 2009
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Discgear said:
Trond, since this is a thread on doping. What's your take? Is it that Landertinger must have been juiced, since he had faster skiing time than OEB on the last lap?
Nah, I am not sure. And Landertinger I don't really have an opinion on.

I think what we (also) are seeing in this Olympics, is the difficulty of racing at 1500m - and how everyone have been training and acclimated themselves to it.

Bjørndalen has been racing for many years now, and he really is the oddest of guys. There are few with his level of dedication, in all areas. There are many articles about this, it is truly is astonishing what level of sacrifice this man makes.

Bjørndalen, as the only skier - opted out of the national team way of preparing for racing in this height. He did not believe in it. He is older now, but everyone who has been racing knows that it is possible to ski superfast at his age. But he does not recoup as well due to his age. He knows that he had his chances early on and wanted to prepare max for that.

Svendsen said to the media today that he felt is skiing form is not there, and that they didn't prepare optimally. But he also said that is was a matter of 1-3 changes in how hard the training was in the final week. So it is truly a matter of fine tuning.

The Norwegian skiers fell through as well, except for Sundby (which has been awesome all year). If they prepared like the biathletes it could be the same issue.

Which also means that they will improve their form over the next days.
 
Jun 25, 2009
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Cloxxki said:
Have any of you noticed that Bjoerndalen will empty a water bottle before talking to a coach after a race? Trying to hydrate, and no excuses there :)
Seem to remember seeing Bjoergen do it also while being handled by doping tester, but don't hold me to that.
What kind of bottle. Does it say Isklar?

There is a sponsorship deal that makes all the skiers have that damn bottle in all post race footage. Especially interviews. Been debated quite a bit in Norway as it looks too silly and (although seeing Johaug sucking on things is not the worst ;)).



EDIT: Quick Search in Google, it's not that bottle: http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/mesterskap/Johaugs-flasker-ma-bli-hjemme-fra-OL-414057_1.snd#.UvjX7PldW4E
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Discgear said:
Mika Myllale and his preseason training, running thru the swamps and fighting against millions of mosquitos and extreme weights tied around his chest. Or the stories about Mühleggs asceticism and mental training, not to mention a wellknown rider fighting cancer and coming back as a winner of TDF. Time after time, almost all superhumans – with remarkable training stories in endurance sports – have been exposed as simple cheaters. Except the Norwegians of course, who count in the biggest ever Olympians during the very same decades.
Never heard of this Myllylä (or just forgot his name, since I watch winter sports only every 4 yrs at the olympics).
So I just looked up at Wiki. Basically a trou-out-career-doper. I guess endurance skiing has the same problems as cycling, only that cycling is the lone scapegoat for all other dirty sports...
It was funny how the german commentator(s) hailed speed skater grandma Pechstein yesterday (I actually loved it when she finished 4th :D (says a german who´s always happy when germans win)), yet those same guys **** on cycling every time they have a chance. What hypocrites.

BTW, I do not believe 40+ year old OEB a second. German TV brought a story about him today how he is sooo focused, trains hard, blablabla... Always the same BS they wanna sell us.
 
May 19, 2010
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Don Catlin's news about the positives from Salt Lake City is a shocker. But it was published four days ago in The New York Post, and still no mention in the press in Norway, at least not on the websites of the newspapers or NRK or TV2.

If you ask someone in Norway or Sweden to name a known doper, Mühlegg would be part of most peoples answer. Anything related to that story should be super interesting, and on every front page. Don't they have time to read The New York Post during the Olympics?

Catlin seems to say more than that there were two more positives for darbepoetin, He says the 3 known cases were only “the tip of the iceberg” of the positive tests for darbepoetin in Salt Lake City. 2 unknown cases doesn't make 3 cases only the tip of the iceberg. Catlin seems to say there were lots of dabepoetin use in Salt Lake City. And to improve my post I will now link to the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics Medal Table.
 
Jun 25, 2009
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neineinei said:
Don Catlin's news about the positives from Salt Lake City is a shocker. But it was published four days ago in The New York Post, and still no mention in the press in Norway, at least not on the websites of the newspapers or NRK or TV2.

If you ask someone in Norway or Sweden to name a known doper, Mühlegg would be part of most peoples answer. Anything related to that story should be super interesting, and on every front page. Don't they have time to read The New York Post during the Olympics?

Catlin seems to say more than that there were two more positives for darbepoetin, He says the 3 known cases were only “the tip of the iceberg” of the positive tests for darbepoetin in Salt Lake City. 2 unknown cases doesn't make 3 cases only the tip of the iceberg. Catlin seems to say there were lots of dabepoetin use in Salt Lake City. And to improve my post I will now link to the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics Medal Table.
Wow. Interesting read. Thanks!
 
Jun 22, 2009
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neineinei said:
Don Catlin's news about the positives from Salt Lake City is a shocker. But it was published four days ago in The New York Post, and still no mention in the press in Norway, at least not on the websites of the newspapers or NRK or TV2.

If you ask someone in Norway or Sweden to name a known doper, Mühlegg would be part of most peoples answer. Anything related to that story should be super interesting, and on every front page. Don't they have time to read The New York Post during the Olympics?
I was about to say it was not unexpected that the Post might be ignored by any reasonable person, but then noticed the story is actually from The New York Times, and by Juliet Macur at that. So yes, from a reputable source and by a journalist who knows the doping landscape.

Really, it is stunning that clear positives simply go unenforced. :eek:
 
I'm guessing the 'tip of the iceberg' sentence is just badly formulated by either Catlin or the journalist, or that Catlin means that there were many that used it that just wasn't caught. Don't really think he's speaking in riddles here.

Also interesting to see that Catlin seemingly thought that taking on 5 cases was a bit too much. For whatever reason Rogge really wanted the cases to be forgotten (I'm guessing he rather would want to see all 5 cases being buried), he still seems to have a point here. As far as I know it took about 2 years with preparation and court cases to get these 3 doping cases resolved.

When that is said...You would think IOC had enough resources to handle a couple of extra cases if they really wanted to.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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neineinei said:
Having to state "I'm being intellectually honest" usually isn't a good sign. But as you haven't mentioned pedophiles or neuronal degradation in the frontal lobes in the post maybe you now are giving it a try.

What was so offensive about the video of Mühlegg trashing everybody in the first race of the Salt Lake City Olympics? Was it the Swedish commentators? Watching Elofsson breaking himself trying to follow Mühlegg? Or watching Bjørndalen having his best skiing form ever? The double gold winner from the Lahti 2001 FIS World championship was crushed. Bjørndalen went on to win all the biatlon gold medals.

Why are Bjørndalens negative tests taken right after races so valuable when you know Mühlegg was caught in a test taken after a medal ceremony and Danilova and Lazutina tested positive a day when the they didn't race? Their tests were first found negative. It took retesting to catch them. Bjørndalen, Mühlegg, Lazotina and Danilova all tested negative after races. That much we know. What we don't know is if Bjørndalen tested negative after all his races. Two biathlets tested positive and got away with it. That is a fact.
Muhlegg got nothing on this.
1 1059628 ALSGAARD Thomas 1972 NOR 1:12:26.4
2 1006181 DAEHLIE Bjoern 1967 NOR 1:13:13.6 +47.2
3 1011225 MYLLYLAE Mika 1969 FIN 1:14:14.5 +1:48.1
4 1022089 BOTVINOV Michail 1967 RUS 1:14:43.3 +2:16.9
5 1008121 DE ZOLT Maurilio 1950 ITA 1:14:55.5 +2:29.1
6 1011516 ISOMETSAE Jari 1968 FIN 1:15:12.5 +2:46.1
7 1008703 FAUNER Silvio 1968 ITA 1:15:27.7 +3:01.3
8 1032177 KRISTIANSEN Egil 1966 NOR 1:15:37.7 +3:11.3
9 1048473 MUEHLEGG Johann 1970 GER 1:15:42.8 +3:16.4
10 1006569 SMIRNOV Vladimir 1964 KAZ 1:16:01.8 +3:35.4
Destroying "clean" competition is one thing, this is something else.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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the sceptic said:
Svendsen suddenly losing all form. not normal. Has he been target tested or something?
I believe there was news of him having been tested multiple times in a week. And then the Russian/Lithuanian positives came out. Some explanation that the IBU cannot ONLY test those being targeted. Svendsen himself may have been targeted.
Just putting this out there. Could OEB use his influence to pull a Tyler/Floyd on him? It sure would explain it :)

Landertinger I don't trust one bit. When all the Austrians were flying, he was covering complete relay stints in jump skate. then got slow, then got fast again, and the whole team walked in sync that way.
 
Jun 25, 2009
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Vino attacks everyone said:
he has been bad in the hight before. Honestly doubt he would loose all doping form in 2 weeks :rolleyes:
This. Just saw him on an interview live now. He does not like this height. But he also said that his body just doesn't work at the moment. Feels powerless. Very disappointed.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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neineinei said:
Having to state "I'm being intellectually honest" usually isn't a good sign. But as you haven't mentioned pedophiles or neuronal degradation in the frontal lobes in the post maybe you now are giving it a try.

What was so offensive about the video of Mühlegg trashing everybody in the first race of the Salt Lake City Olympics? Was it the Swedish commentators? Watching Elofsson breaking himself trying to follow Mühlegg? Or watching Bjørndalen having his best skiing form ever? The double gold winner from the Lahti 2001 FIS World championship was crushed. Bjørndalen went on to win all the biatlon gold medals.

Why are Bjørndalens negative tests taken right after races so valuable when you know Mühlegg was caught in a test taken after a medal ceremony and Danilova and Lazutina tested positive a day when the they didn't race? Their tests were first found negative. It took retesting to catch them. Bjørndalen, Mühlegg, Lazotina and Danilova all tested negative after races. That much we know. What we don't know is if Bjørndalen tested negative after all his races. Two biathlets tested positive and got away with it. That is a fact.
State facts, perhaps post link, that's all I wanted to point out. Nothing more.
 
May 25, 2009
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I think it's getting a bit silly if you start using mediocrity at a big event as a sign of doping

To me it looks like Lindstroem had the fastest skiing. Though I don't think the guys in the first group at the start showed all their speed, and obviously Fourcade didn't at the end.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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the sceptic said:
Muhlegg got nothing on this.


Destroying "clean" competition is one thing, this is something else.
Agree, thats been covered earlier in the thread. It still doesn't make sense.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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MrRoboto said:
I'm guessing the 'tip of the iceberg' sentence is just badly formulated by either Catlin or the journalist, or that Catlin means that there were many that used it that just wasn't caught. Don't really think he's speaking in riddles here.

Also interesting to see that Catlin seemingly thought that taking on 5 cases was a bit too much. For whatever reason Rogge really wanted the cases to be forgotten (I'm guessing he rather would want to see all 5 cases being buried), he still seems to have a point here. As far as I know it took about 2 years with preparation and court cases to get these 3 doping cases resolved.

When that is said...You would think IOC had enough resources to handle a couple of extra cases if they really wanted to.
I don't agree. As a senior scientist Catlin should, and probably is very careful in choosing the right words in an extremely sensitive matter. In the article it's clear that the reporter asked several times the same question, as this was shocking news. New York Times isn't Verdens Gang.
 
Well, then you have to wonder why he even spoke about two positives in the first place. If there are many more that were caught, why only open up about these two? Why should we take the ambiguous part of what he's saying more seriously than what's clearly written? It doesn't make any sense.
 

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