Doping in XC skiing

[python]

... especially in light of said athlete's association with Marc Biver.

is ollson also associated with marc biver ?

the mentioned athletes were mere natural random examples (that could be continued on and on) to give a pause to someone ready to lap up any excuse. explaining own suckiness by missing few weeks of training 3 months before the olympics is laughable...during the the olympics it was exclusively due to bad skis when many serious observers saw THAT and pure suckiness..again it was laped up uncritically by the fans. when spinning was no longer possible, as usual, the finger is pointed ANYWHERE, but the sucky object of admiration.

if it was so clear that northug was in poor form all along, why the hell he was in the olympics ? why his and the coaching staff claims of him finally feeling in shape just in the right time were lapped up ?

my previous post was not about cologna miracle -which i questioned in more that one post - but about the total lack of questioning attitude on the part some fans when their deities clearly deserved it...

the reason i keep stressing it, that imo uncritical thinking on the scale i observed is the best environment for doping. not to prove that any norwegian was doping. i dont have such proofs and never categorically pushed them.

 

[maltiv]

the mentioned athletes were mere natural random examples (that could be continued on and on) to give a pause to someone ready to lap up any excuse. explaining own suckiness by missing few weeks of training 3 months before the olympics is laughable...during the the olympics it was exclusively due to bad skis when many serious observers saw THAT and pure suckiness..again it was laped up uncritically by the fans. when spinning was no longer possible, as usual, the finger is pointed ANYWHERE, but the sucky object of admiration.

Northug is also known to be quite lazy in the summer, when he spent quite a lot of time partying in Magaluf. So when he got ill, he was already behind the competition.

Cologna was probably in better shape in June than Northug has been all season, which is why he managed to come back much quicker. Being lazy early in the summer can work for some, but it's extremely risky and screws you over if you get ill or injured.

 

[PunchingRouleur]

"Ich habe Dopingkontrollen bestanden, wo ich vorher die doppelte Dosis genommen hatte."

Johannes Dürr

So he passed tests many times when he was fully charged, now just got unlucky thanks to target testing and his own stupidity.

Dopers are still years ahead of doping controls.
Just simple IQ test, nothing changed.

 

[MrRoboto]

Being critical is being able to see both sides of an issue, and it's obvious that one side is missing here. Northug didn't miss 'a couple of weeks of training' or had 'a week of sniffles'. In late august he felt really bad after a tough month were he had pushed himself hard. It was discovered that he had been pushing himself while being infected with a virus. This set him really far behind already, and what was worse was that he didn't truly well again before late october. Thus he missed a lot of very important foundation for the season.

Cologna on the other hand got a serious injury. But it was as the season started, so his foundation for the season was already there. His job from then is mainly to keep in shape, which he could do by training alternatively from just after the operation. What is a bit strange is that he could come back straight to the top with so little competition training, but then again very few of the best racers did much competing between christmas and the olympics.

When it comes to Northug and the olympics. He said he felt good by then, but it was quite clear that he wasn't up on his usual level after the first two races -- Which is why he didn't get to race the 15 km. He still didn't blame his failures on his skis though.

 

[Discgear]

Northug is also known to be quite lazy in the summer, when he spent quite a lot of time partying in Magaluf. So when he got ill, he was already behind the competition.

Cologna was probably in better shape in June than Northug has been all season, which is why he managed to come back much quicker. Being lazy early in the summer can work for some, but it's extremely risky and screws you over if you get ill or injured.

I'm sorry to say, but being lazy in the summer won't do for any top contender in the toughest of sports, no matter how great the physical talent is. If Northug has been lazy in the summer during the succesful years; there's simply no plausible explanation. Except of course the subject of the thread.

 

[Saint Unix]

Johannes Dürr

So he passed tests many times when he was fully charged, now just got unlucky thanks to target testing and his own stupidity.

Dopers are still years ahead of doping controls.
Just simple IQ test, nothing changed.

Yep. The fact that pretty much every athlete who ever got caught for EPO and came completely clean about it have said that they've been doing it for ages without getting caught makes it naïve to think that most top endurance athletes aren't doing it. Especially in sports where the financial support and reward is much greater.

 

[MrRoboto]

Johannes Dürr

So he passed tests many times when he was fully charged, now just got unlucky thanks to target testing and his own stupidity.

Dopers are still years ahead of doping controls.
Just simple IQ test, nothing changed.

Sounds similar to what Bernhard Kohl said really. So you can say that things haven't changed much -- You have to be unlucky to get caught if you somewhat know what you are doing. But still...While it shows that it's still very difficult to catch someone for EPO, it also shows that if you are as bold as Dürr, you will probably get targeted (hopefully).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Speak of the devil, and he shall appear!

Bernhard Kohl discusses EPO and Johannes Dürr.

Quite interesting to see it publicised, but really nothing we don't already know. Kohl is kind of having to give them a "my first background on doping" talk. Bernhard has a lot more interesting things to say on the subject than this, which seems to be regurgitating a lot of the things he said about his own doping, mind.

 

[roundabout]

An eloquent, yet naive blog post on the subject (in German)

http://gunnarzloebl.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/offener-brief-an-herrn-durr/

 

[python]

I'm sorry to say, but being lazy in the summer won't do for any top contender in the toughest of sports, no matter how great the physical talent is. If Northug has been lazy in the summer during the succesful years; there's simply no plausible explanation. Except of course the subject of the thread.

it's about much more than being fed a ferry-tail about being lazy...

no surprise at all that many professional athletes exposed to harsh racing pressures during the racing season want to use the non-competitive months for 'letting it go'. northug is absolutely non-unique in 'being lazy'. this helps some regain or gain body fat and repair their immune systems, (ala ulle ), some reset and recharge their minds, some simply sleep off the hours they had to stay up...

what's amazing, is that despite my sincere attempts to show comparatively the less than unique or special conditions northug used to explain his suckiness, his fans continue to repeat, like robots, ONLY what he said or what his spinners in the norwegian media wanted them to believe.

this is truly amazing b/c any norwegian , if they truly wanted to check the alternative, can easily understand the swedish media, which is far more open-minded on both their own and the norwegians..

but i also have to complement roboto, maltiv and several others for NOT taking my comments personally and remaining civil and cordial.

 

[MrRoboto]

If you are aiming at something written in this thread, I suggest you answer it directly.

 

[python]

if you are aiming at something in this thread, i suggest that you quote it directly, so it could be answered directly.

 

[MrRoboto]

You seem to disagree with things being written about Northug here. If so, it would be nice if you could point to what you disagree with.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Johannes Dürr

So he passed tests many times when he was fully charged, now just got unlucky thanks to target testing and his own stupidity.

Dopers are still years ahead of doping controls.
Just simple IQ test, nothing changed.

Did you really believe he used EPO for the first time on february 16? Or that he was never tested before that?
If you buy Dürr's story, he didn't even go a single season before getting caught. He was probably targeted less than two months before the positive. Quit whining.

How is it an IQ test when JD knew he was going to be tested but thought the dosage would not be detected? Nothing at all to do with intelligence or lack there of.

 

[python]

some seem to be unable to read or accept my clearly stated multiple times points about northug spins about his form and his fanboysw robotic repeats of the spin. it would be nice if what needs to be repeated or needs more explanations is pointed to. a direct quote would be a good start.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

geezus, some of the long ago busted arguments here are beyond naive or silly...

- great many blood doper who were later caught or forced to admit had legitimately owned all sorts of altitude-simulating tents or houses. they really did. but it was also proven that if they were SOPHISTICATED DOPERs well advised, not only it was a convenient cover story but a very real tool to beet the epo test.
this iwas documented in numerous testimonies, affidavits and even scientific works. but of course, blind fanboys and girls will lap up anything that helps them to keep their faith.

as to the hilarious northug excuse for why he sucked (losing training time ), his fanboys of course will lap up again any story ignoring that cologna missed a lot more training time due to injury or that olsson missed the all-important pre-olympic traing and barely staedy alive...some norwegian fans of the sport - i stress some as even in this thread there are many open-minded norwegians - defy common sense.

----------------------------

Using an altitude tent is neither proof of doping or a likely reason that somebody is doping, it is merely an altitude tent. My point about it was that it is now forbidden in Norway, unlike in many other countries. By the way, there was no EPO-test in Dæhlie's time, he'd need no tent to beat an unexisting test.

Northug is VERY closely followed in Norwegian media, a documentary about his training has been running before the olympics. It was no news to us "fanboys" as you call us, that it was unlikely he'd perform at his usual levels. It was no news to his team either as is well documented on TV. You make it sound like having a virus for two months that stops you from training hard, and leaves you with 3 months approximately to get in shape for the olympics, is a laughable excuse. I think your argument is more of a laugh.

Cologna was able to train hard, even if injured, as he had alternative ways of training, so he would not lose endurance. There is a difference to that and being unable to push yourself for two months. The aforementioned partying and relatively relaxed summer training of Northug also comes into the fact that he really needed all the months he had planned to get in super shape.

One could also ask - what is really your point ? If you think Northug is doping, why in the world do you think he would have stopped now ? Why would he suddenly be scared after so many years on the top ?

 

[Armchaircyclist]

some seem to be unable to read or accept my clearly stated multiple times points about northug spins about his form and his fanboysw robotic repeats of the spin. it would be nice if what needs to be repeated or needs more explanations is pointed to. a direct quote would be a good start.

------------------
Instead of calling people names, you could start by talking straight yourself, instead of these "points about Northug spins" as you call it.

Some facts:

- Northug had an infection for about two months, hurting his training, this is no spin, it is well documented on TV I'm Norwegian, I saw the program FFS.

-Northug and his trainer were both uncertain if there was enough time to get in shape for the olympics.

-Norwegians who seldom doubted his form before, were split to the point were many meant he should stay home from the olympics because of lack of form.

-In the end Northug and his team were convinced that he would make it in time, and be in great shape at the olympics. In fact he also said at the olympics that he felt in shape. However, we all saw what happened, he did not have the necessary endurance at altitude and in hard slopes in Sochi.

-The Norwegians struggled with ski-prep in the start of the games. What other way would you explain that the women's team that had won EVERY relay-competition since 2009, came in 5th even behind France and Germany ? It was a joke, and I saw with my own eyes, ice under the skis of Johaug. You are a complete idiot about XC-skiing if you can't admit to this fact that the skis were bad for Norway in that race. Would Norway have won with good skis ? Most likely yes, but 100% sure is they would never be 5th on good skis.

 

[python]

w Why would he suddenly be scared after so many years on the top ?

that' s the question for you and the norwegian media to explore. many posters already suggested their opinions...

as to the rest of your post, if northug being so sucky all along and being no news to anyone in norway before sochi, your inability to entertain my simple question - why the fork was he taken to sochi ? is norway really that poor on talent ? or you simply are unable to accept that you swallowed another spin that he was hitting the right form without ever showing one...

yes, fanboys are blind and i am happy to tell it as i see it.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

some speculate that the lack of the usual peak form in a number of skiers may have to do with the unprecedented security measures in sochi.

many blogs from the athletes expressed a concern not only with the strict russian customs officers but the routine security surveillance.

it is far from unimaginable that in such circumstances some teams could have been scared from bringing over and using semi-legal and doping products.

i am far from suspecting all under-performing athletes, but among them, some, normally well known for being the masters of ski preparation and scientific peaking for major competitions, were curiously inept...

could that be missing their juice ?

------------------

As a Swede doesn't it feel a bit stupid to come on like this now that your hockey-star is just busted, and it is a known fact that you beat Finland and stole their place in the final by using a juiced up player ?

After all, your entire argument is that there is so high security in Sochi, that Northug suddenly is scared to bring his doping equipment, which you obviously think he has been bringing all over the world for his entire career. How stupid an argument is that really ?

As to "spins" about Northug partying in the summer, these are not "spins" these are facts from outside the press, from people seeing him out partying and drinking beer. Not a word about this in the press.

 

[python]

if you want to call any argument stupid, you need to pay attention to those who mindlessly swallow crap and suspend asking natural questions.

once again and for the n-th time any facts you and several others view ONLY from the point of what was sold to you by the norwegian media. ONLY and ONLY.

most less biased fans of the sport, even when viewing their compatriots, are much more balanced. this fanatisism about their heros being infallible and incapable of spinning seems much less prevalent in germany, in sweden, in finland even in russia.

i read time and again, from the multiple athletes when they underperformed, 'i made mistakes, i was beaten by a stronger competitor, i dont know what happened...' sundby, for example, is not resorting to spinning and that's why i respect him.


it is only when northug is the subject a wall of spinning and deflections is blindly accepted as he never resorted to such. i dont know a single swede or german or finn who does not laugh about his lack of training crap several months befor the olympics...

yes, you and several others made the point for me when rationalizing northug's bs.

 

[Cloxxki]

Northug was so sucky that he took a win at the Tour de Ski, in the 10km Classic. No other ski pro's present trying to win that one made it easy for his feable untrained awesomeness. And this was not the first event there either. So he was getting tired slower than the others. Must be from all that missed training that he was showing the others his tail?
After the TdS he went back being under trained.

Tragic that a small modest country such as Norway has no option but to use a weak and undertrained skier to represent at the Olympics. Put him in the team sprint. And the 50k. No-one else to give it a go.
At least the Germans threw in some over-raced tired biathletes last minute. Not too sucky.

 

[neineinei]

I wonder why Dürr are telling as much as he does. Isn't he risking having to pay back prize money? He says bad economy was the reason he started doping. He is likely to be in a really bad situation now, economically He could have said he started doping just before the Olympics. Would FIS bother to retest older samples or start a bio passport case against him? FIS has never started a bio passport case before, or had an EPO positive for that. Maybe he is just an honest person basically - a confusing and uncommon concept in sports.

 

[Cloxxki]

I wonder why Dürr are telling as much as he does. Isn't he risking having to pay back prize money? He says bad economy was the reason he started doping. He is likely to be in a really bad situation now, economically He could have said he started doping just before the Olympics. Would FIS bother to retest older samples or start a bio passport case against him? FIS has never started a bio passport case before, or had an EPO positive for that. Maybe he is just an honest person basically - a confusing and uncommon concept in sports.

The stupidity of leaving the games to dope should add years to his ban. Turns out all but the Russians and Sundby were sucky. He could perhaps have won clean!

People say he was noticed so much this season. But didn't he put in a stellar Alpe Cermis climb last season? If you are that fast clean, you need not dope. Much more likely he was doped all along, and just got better with the years and experience, or upped the doping a notch wanting to be a factor at the Olympics. Train harder, race better. Be a ski pro that actually makes money.
The boohoo "I tried to dope and only once" is getting old. The odds can't possibly agree.

 

[Discgear]

once again and for the n-th time any facts you and several others view ONLY from the point of what was sold to you by the norwegian media. ONLY and ONLY.

most less biased fans of the sport, even when viewing their compatriots, are much more balanced. this fanatisism about their heros being infallible and incapable of spinning seems much less prevalent in germany, in sweden, in finland even in russia.

I don’t agree about Northug. I’ve never suspected him. He’s a unique skiing talent and don’t rely on extreme stamina to win races. He has by far the most tactical head and can race in an energy saving way to explode the very last part of the race. I don’t like him though, far too disrespectful to his fellow contesters. A lot of his success has been about FIS changing XC racing in a way that benefits racers like Northug. Skiers like Legkov, Rickardsson and Sundby can perform well but usually don’t have much of a change in winning races.

I’m convinced that the 90s were very dirty even among the Norwegians but I haven’t seen anything that connects Northug with the “dark” past.

It’s however different with Bjoergen and of course Bjoerndalen who raced throughout the 90s. It’s also disturbing with Johaug who doesn’t have a very good technique. She really is wasting a lot of energy but still seemingly untouched by the toughest challenges. I might be wrong about her. I hope I’m wrong.

To save the sport, the truth about the 90s has to come up to the surface. Now it seems the anti-doping work is more of a farce, a cherry picking of skiers. The recent revelations about Salt Lake 2002 in New York Times were very telling, and confirmed the suspicions that some skiers and maybe nations/nation simply are too big to “fail”. People are losing interest in a sport that should stand for healthy outdoor activities and stories about lonely heroes building success through endless struggles and hard work. Not simple cheaters.

 

[jsem94]

The stupidity of leaving the games to dope should add years to his ban. Turns out all but the Russians and Sundby were sucky. He could perhaps have won clean!

People say he was noticed so much this season. But didn't he put in a stellar Alpe Cermis climb last season? If you are that fast clean, you need not dope. Much more likely he was doped all along, and just got better with the years and experience, or upped the doping a notch wanting to be a factor at the Olympics. Train harder, race better. Be a ski pro that actually makes money.
The boohoo "I tried to dope and only once" is getting old. The odds can't possibly agree.

Did he really perform that well in the 2013 Alpe Cermis stage? He wasn't in the top 3 time-wise at least for the climb, but I can't seem to find full results for the stage anywhere.

He still would not have won anything of significance being clean. He really stepped up his game this season. His effort on the Cortina-Toblach stage was out of this world.

(conspiracy alien UFO dark overlord theory illuminati ahead, lol)
I don't know why he got caught, when he even said his dose was half what he had used when beating tests earlier, but this time he got caught. Perhaps someone caught wind of him going back home to Austria in the middle of the games and thought it was extra suspicious and made sure he was going to get caught. It was kind of nevertheless kind of reckless on his part.


On the topic of Northug, Norwegians and summer training:

His sucky form for these Games cannot be attributed to just dosages imo. We know very little about their doping practices. What we do know is that Northug missed most of the pre-season and then races the Tour de Ski. A pattern that has been recognized is how the Norwegian racers had to peak earlier and perform well to even secure a spot for the Olympic team, as well as a lot of riders opting out of the TDS performing well at the Olympics. Northug lost out on a lot of valuable training volume.

If doping prep is equal to what it has been before, then there are other factors making the entire Norwegian team fail. The TDS is probably one of those factors.

To whomever said that Cologna missed the early and mid season but still did well at the Olympics, well, Petter's body may not respond the same way to training stimulus as Dario's. Also, Petter raced the TDS fully, which he probably shouldn't have done going into the Olympics.

And also, you make it sound like the pre-season doesn't even matter. That it doesn't matter what you do in the summer, because well, Dario came back the way he did anyway. In that case, why even train in the summer? Why not just spend the entire summer in Magaluf constantly partying?

Why are people even talking about accumulated training hours for an entire year then, and talking about trying to increase training volume gradually to get even better? Is this all bogus, trying to direct attention away from drug stacks? My thought would be that the drugs are what help them deal with increased workload and training volume, not just performance enhancing.

My summary would say there are many factors to Northug's poor performance, and most things combined have probably led to what we saw from him this year.