Doping in XC skiing

[Bavarianrider]

some speculate that the lack of the usual peak form in a number of skiers may have to do with the unprecedented security measures in sochi.

many blogs from the athletes expressed a concern not only with the strict russian customs officers but the routine security surveillance.

it is far from unimaginable that in such circumstances some teams could have been scared from bringing over and using semi-legal and doping products.

i am far from suspecting all under-performing athletes, but among them, some, normally well known for being the masters of ski preparation and scientific peaking for major competitions, were curiously inept...

could that be missing their juice ?

Not that far fetched in my opinion. And certainly one of the reasons why a guy like Dürr went home during the games. However, that was simply too obvious. Nobody else was that stupid, of course.
Many guys looked like they weren't running on all cyclinders. We'll likely never no the reasons, though.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Legkov seems to have gained a lot of muscle lately. I don't know how much we can trust the weight numbers that are thrown around, but the Sochi site puts him at 73 kg now:
http://www.sochi2014.com/en/athlete-alexander-legkov
I think many here too easily compare skiers with tiny cyclists.

Yep, too many guys here don't understand that there's a huge differenc between the built and training of a cross country skier compared to cyclists, especially todays Gc guys.

 

[Kokoso]

Unbelievable. They just dropped everyone.

Well you haven't seen the race cause they didn't drop everyone, Sundby stayed with them.

 

[melkemugg]

Comparing this to Gewiss must be the most incompetent claim ive seen in a while, even for the clinic. Putin told russians not to dope years ago and what Putin wants, Putin gets, especially when after he kind of lost control of the testing. That might even be why we haven't seen as good results from the russians in the classic disciplines as we should expect.

Legkov was a huge favorite and even saved himself except from a showing in the 4x10. The other two are also hardly no surprises in a 50 KM.

 

[olhell]

German TV channel WDR claims the Russians have been inhaling Xenon to stimulate the bodys production of EPO. And that they have been doing this for years...
http://www.wdr5.de/sendungen/leonardo/xenon_doping100.html

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Putin told russians not to dope years ago and what Putin wants, Putin gets, especially when after he kind of lost control of the testing. That might even be why we haven't seen as good results from the russians in the classic disciplines as we should expect.

Nice sarcasm...

 

[Cloxxki]

Russia may well have created the cleanest game by scaring the competition. Totally plausible, as I alluded to before.

The sprinters weren't a match for the 50km specialists in the team sprint. Lacking some recovery? This may actually include the Russian sprinters, mind you.
I saw one gutsy move, Kalla in the skiathlon, she had to try it. But couldn't make it stick. All but Bjoergen had to let her go. Johaug tried in the twice as long 30km and same result.

Interesting thought that perhaps security was able to confiscate legal supplements, or scare team out of bringing them.

If Russia indeed went clean-ish, and enforced other to go cleaner than they were planning to be, then it's not strange they took the overall medal ranking, apart from the emphasis Olympic sports enjoyed the past 4+ years.

So was the security tough or invisible? I am hearing conflicting reports.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Comparing this to Gewiss must be the most incompetent claim ive seen in a while, even for the clinic. Putin told russians not to dope years ago and what Putin wants, Putin gets, especially when after he kind of lost control of the testing. That might even be why we haven't seen as good results from the russians in the classic disciplines as we should expect.

Legkov was a huge favorite and even saved himself except from a showing in the 4x10. The other two are also hardly no surprises in a 50 KM.

I'm very pessimistic about the outcome of endurance events any more.

If my suspicions about that race were wrong, well, that's good and I got it wrong. Add to that, I don't follow XC skiing but every four years, so I probably got it wrong. It's okay. I make mistakes.

A believable claim Russians are doping less would mean we'd see some declines in performance/overall ranking. This is not exclusive to Russia either. Any nation claiming they are performing clean-er/ish would see a decline in rankings. In short, Belarus would dominate!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Interesting thought that perhaps security was able to confiscate legal supplements, or scare team out of bringing them.

If Russia indeed went clean-ish, and enforced other to go cleaner than they were planning to be, then it's not strange they took the overall medal ranking, apart from the emphasis Olympic sports enjoyed the past 4+ years.

So was the security tough or invisible? I am hearing conflicting reports.

Please remember that the IOC demands relaxed anti-doping law as a part of a bid. It was Hein Verbruggen himself identified as the IOC member demanding it from France/Paris bid many years ago. So, it's very hard to know what's real or imagined in regards to anti-doping and the IOC.

 

[python]

some speculate that the lack of the usual peak form in a number of skiers may have to do with the unprecedented security measures in sochi.

many blogs from the athletes expressed a concern not only with the strict russian customs officers but the routine security surveillance.

it is far from unimaginable that in such circumstances some teams could have been scared from bringing over and using semi-legal and doping products.

i am far from suspecting all under-performing athletes, but among them, some, normally well known for being the masters of ski preparation and scientific peaking for major competitions, were curiously inept...

could that be missing their juice ?

Not that far fetched in my opinion. And certainly one of the reasons why a guy like Dürr went home during the games. However, that was simply too obvious. Nobody else was that stupid, of course.
Many guys looked like they weren't running on all cyclinders. We'll likely never no the reasons, though.

to the bolded... i doubt dürr was the only one who tried the trick. he was the one who got caught.

in this regard, another interesting detail was that in addition to unprecedented security and surveillance, the sochi accommodations for athletes and their supporting staff were regulated stricter than was usual in any Olympics. it was exceedingly difficult to get a spot in the olympic village for an extra support personnel.

for example, even a super star like northug - speaking from memory - was refused accommodations for several of his personal support staff that would have been above and beyond the norwegian team support staff. in all fairness and to their credit, if memory serves me right, he was refused by the norwegians themselves. i recall reading he was told, if you want your own people in sochi, you will have to locate them elsewhere in sochi and travel to outside the team's set-up to get their services.

i guess, it would be too stooopid, if not too suspicious, for him to insist on an alternative. hence, petter sucked as he never did at the olympic or world level.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

some speculate that the lack of the usual peak form in a number of skiers may have to do with the unprecedented security measures in sochi.

many blogs from the athletes expressed a concern not only with the strict russian customs officers but the routine security surveillance.

it is far from unimaginable that in such circumstances some teams could have been scared from bringing over and using semi-legal and doping products.

i am far from suspecting all under-performing athletes, but among them, some, normally well known for being the masters of ski preparation and scientific peaking for major competitions, were curiously inept...

could that be missing their juice ?

--------
I'm guessing you refer to Norway in your comment about the "masters of ski preparation".
How did Norwegian skiers perform actually ? Northug was sh**, and this is easily explained by him missing out on two months of training in pre-season due to illness, a well known fact in Norway.
In the relays both Norwegian teams had HORRIBLE ski-prep, and were getting beat by teams we never lose to.
The women had a very good olympics, the men did badly, no surprise with #1 star out of form, and with Sundby who never wins in championships, as the highest rated skier in the world cup.

We did exceptionally well in the sprint, great win by a guy who had not been winning much for years, until last sprint before sochi. If anything indicated juicing by performance, that would be these wins. But of course the norwegians are clean

 

[BullsFan22]

--------
I'm guessing you refer to Norway in your comment about the "masters of ski preparation".
How did Norwegian skiers perform actually ? Northug was sh**, and this is easily explained by him missing out on two months of training in pre-season due to illness, a well known fact in Norway.
In the relays both Norwegian teams had HORRIBLE ski-prep, and were getting beat by teams we never lose to.
The women had a very good olympics, the men did badly, no surprise with #1 star out of form, and with Sundby who never wins in championships, as the highest rated skier in the world cup.

We did exceptionally well in the sprint, great win by a guy who had not been winning much for years, until last sprint before sochi. If anything indicated juicing by performance, that would be these wins. But of course the norwegians are clean

Yes. Norwegians are definitely clean and the others are definitely dirty.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Yes. Norwegians are definitely clean and the others are definitely dirty.

-----------
Yes, leave the arguments out of it, it's a sarcasm-forum, not meant for discussion !

The one guy that has had a suspicious leap in performance this season - Durr from Austria, actually got caught for EPO. It almost gives me hope that the sport is clean.
By the way - good thing of him to just admit it, even before the B-sample, when did that ever happen before ?

 

[Discgear]

Omertà 2

Last year, from page 109 and onwards it was a lot of talk of the high blood values in the 90s and the astonishing fact that a major part of the medal winners from that decade have been caught for, or is connected to doping, except the Norwegians who then dominated the Nordic skiing events.

However, in my recollection we didn’t mention Nordic combined, which involves ski jump and xc-skiing. Let’s look on one of the most prominent athletes, Fred Børre Lundberg b.1969. In his career he won 9 individual events in the world cup between 1990-96 and 10 championships medals 1992-99, among them 5 gold medals, individual and team.

Thunder Bay 1995 is considered as one of the dirtiest championships ever, especially among Norwegians, considering the success for skiers like Smirnov, Myllylae, Prokurov, Fauner, Lazutina and Danilova.

In the 15 km Nordic Combined event in Thunder Bay, the Norwegians failed in the Ski jump event. Fred Børre Lundberg was in 15th place and 3.02 behind the leader when the XC-skiing event started. Of course he won. By margin. He even had time to bow in front of the audience when he entered the stadium.

In 2005 Fred had since a few years stopped his active career. He then met a skier called Marit Bjoergen and they've been a couple ever since.

If you believe the Norwegians stayed clean in the 90s, no problem. But if you pursue the argument that “it such a long time ago, maybe it was fishy, but who really cares today?” then there is a problem. Most nations have had to deal with their past in one way or another. For me a real game changer was to see the interviews with anti-doping legend Bengt Saltin last year. You could clearly see his frustration over the past, and the Norwegians in particular.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Last year, from page 109 and onwards it was a lot of talk of the high blood values in the 90s and the astonishing fact that a major part of the medal winners from that decade have been caught for, or is connected to doping, except the Norwegians who then dominated the Nordic skiing events.

However, in my recollection we didn’t mention Nordic combined, which involves ski jump and xc-skiing. Let’s look on one of the most prominent athletes, Fred Børre Lundberg b.1969. In his career he won 9 individual events in the world cup between 1990-96 and 10 championships medals 1992-99, among them 5 gold medals, individual and team.

Thunder Bay 1995 is considered as one of the dirtiest championships ever, especially among Norwegians, considering the success for skiers like Smirnov, Myllylae, Prokurov, Fauner, Lazutina and Danilova.

In the 15 km Nordic Combined event in Thunder Bay, the Norwegians failed in the Ski jump event. Fred Børre Lundberg was in 15th place and 3.02 behind the leader when the XC-skiing event started. Of course he won. By margin. He even had time to bow in front of the audience when he entered the stadium.

In 2005 Fred had since a few years stopped his active career. He then met a skier called Marit Bjoergen and they've been a couple ever since.

If you believe the Norwegians stayed clean in the 90s, no problem. But if you pursue the argument that “it such a long time ago, maybe it was fishy, but who really cares today?” then there is a problem. Most nations have had to deal with their past in one way or another. For me a real game changer was to see the interviews with anti-doping legend Bengt Saltin last year. You could clearly see his frustration over the past, and the Norwegians in particular.

----------------

I think if you ask Norwegians who they would think was more likely doped, their heroes of the 90s, Dæhlie and Alsgaard, or the heroes of today, Bjørgen and Northug, I think most, maybe as high as 98% would say none of them doped. If anybody believe there is doping, I think it is more likely they would believe there is doping now. We do know that Dæhlie had an altitude-house at home, which surely helped him get to high blood values, but that was not illegal at the time, it is illegal in Norway now though.
One athlete from the 90s has been under suspicion at least on discussion forums, and that is speed skater Koss, who had an incredible olympic in 94, after a poor season coming into it. And who was also a student of medicine at the time.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

As to Lundberg beating the competition in the combined cross-country, that was no surprise.
The good jumpers pretty often get crushed by the good skiers in this dicipline.

 

[oevkride]

The Nordic combined is a microscopic sport. You always get these weird results in the mini sports, so results from one championship are not really proving anything. It is also always huge gaps after the ski jump part, as there are some who specializes at jumping and some who can ski. Very few do both good. In Sotchi 45 second gaps where at several occasions covered in matter of 1-2km. FIS has registered approx 700 athletes as active in the world. I think it is the smallest Olympic sport by far.

 

[Discgear]

----------------

I think if you ask Norwegians who they would think was more likely doped, their heroes of the 90s, Dæhlie and Alsgaard, or the heroes of today, Bjørgen and Northug, I think most, maybe as high as 98% would say none of them doped. If anybody believe there is doping, I think it is more likely they would believe there is doping now. We do know that Dæhlie had an altitude-house at home, which surely helped him get to high blood values, but that was not illegal at the time, it is illegal in Norway now though.

The Nordic combined is a microscopic sport. You always get these weird results in the mini sports, so results from one championship are not really proving anything. It is also always huge gaps after the ski jump part, as there are some who specializes at jumping and some who can ski. Very few do both good. In Sotchi 45 second gaps where at several occasions covered in matter of 1-2km. FIS has registered approx 700 athletes as active in the world. I think it is the smallest Olympic sport by far.

As I said,

If you believe the Norwegians stayed clean in the 90s, no problem.

 

[Silhouette]

Nordic combined is a different sport these days. Back in the 90s you had some athletes (typically Japanese) that were great ski jumpers that could get around a cross country lap at a moderate pace, and others (typically Norwegians) that were great cross country skiers who could participate in ski jumping without falling on their face (usually).

Add to this that the competitions format has been changed so that ski jumping results created much larger time gaps and the cross country laps were much harder/longer before, and you had ridiculous situations like "can the Norwegians catch up to the Japanese in the team competition? They're only 7 minutes behind...."

 

[oevkride]

As I said,

If you believe the Norwegians stayed clean in the 90s, no problem.

I totaly agree that it would be very surpricing if no of the norwegian skiers did drugs in the 90's.
But arguing that some random result form a tiny sport proves anything makes no sense. Even if the winner is living with Bjoergen 15 years later.

Go through xc world cup results in the 90's. Particulary the classic style races. If I recall correct, they should look much weirder.

 

[python]

geezus, some of the long ago busted arguments here are beyond naive or silly...

- great many blood doper who were later caught or forced to admit had legitimately owned all sorts of altitude-simulating tents or houses. they really did. but it was also proven that if they were SOPHISTICATED DOPERs well advised, not only it was a convenient cover story but a very real tool to beet the epo test.
this iwas documented in numerous testimonies, affidavits and even scientific works. but of course, blind fanboys and girls will lap up anything that helps them to keep their faith.

as to the hilarious northug excuse for why he sucked (losing training time ), his fanboys of course will lap up again any story ignoring that cologna missed a lot more training time due to injury or that olsson missed the all-important pre-olympic traing and barely staedy alive...some norwegian fans of the sport - i stress some as even in this thread there are many open-minded norwegians - defy common sense.

 

[Cloxxki]

On Nordic Combined.
I didn't know about Bjoergen's husband, perhaps commentators don't like a 90's invincible skier in their back ground stories. That Bjoergen is yet another fast farmers daughter suits the vibe better.
I haven't followed it for a few years, and only saw the normal hill ski race. The 2 with a modest gap stayed away. Brilliant German skier and very cautious, too cautious to be efficient yet still very capable, Japanese.

Bill Demong, whom I remember as fast enough to make the US XC relay team, LOST time on the leaders. The Norwegians likely to make ground did well in that race, but not awesome. The 2 stayed away after all, and large groups were formed behind them. Bill Demong and his compatriot failing stood out at me. Another security stare scare perhaps?
Going into the race, I was looking for Demong to make up that 1:30 to the leaders. He was one of the few NOT to make ground. Sorry to highlight an also-ran.

 

[search]

Bill Demong and his compatriot failing stood out at me. Another security stare scare perhaps?
Going into the race, I was looking for Demong to make up that 1:30 to the leaders. He was one of the few NOT to make ground. Sorry to highlight an also-ran.

nowadays Frenzel & Watabe (decent in both disciplines) are both about equally good skiers as Demong, who isn't even the strongest in the US team anymore, both Fletcher brothers are better, especially Taylor. Demong hasn't done anything since his win at the Olympics four years ago.

 

[Gracey]

as to the hilarious northug excuse for why he sucked (losing training time ), his fanboys of course will lap up again any story ignoring that cologna missed a lot more training time due to injury or that olsson missed the all-important pre-olympic traing and barely staedy alive...some norwegian fans of the sport - i stress some as even in this thread there are many open-minded norwegians - defy common sense.

Long time lurker here. Northug hasn't exactly been in fantastic form this year. Just 1 win during Tour de Ski from memory. I don't think his poor performance was a surprise nor is there any sinister reason behind in. I think its rather ironic that insinuations of doping are being drawn from a correlation between poor performance and support staff restrictions, but in the same breath, an athlete who's astounding return from ankle surgery, a mere 3 months from the Olympics, is being used as a an example of how little impact a reduction of training hours has on performance... especially in light of said athlete's association with Marc Biver.

 

[Cloxxki]

Long time lurker here. Northug hasn't exactly been in fantastic form this year. Just 1 win during Tour de Ski from memory. I don't think his poor performance was a surprise nor is there any sinister reason behind in. I think its rather ironic that insinuations of doping are being drawn from a correlation between poor performance and support staff restrictions, but in the same breath, an athlete who's astounding return from ankle surgery, a mere 3 months from the Olympics, is being used as a an example of how little impact a reduction of training hours has on performance... especially in light of said athlete's association with Marc Biver.

Very fair comment.

I do feel Northug is being given too much slack for never getting back in shape after a week of sniffles somewhere in the autumn or something
Normal superstars don't let that stand in the way of medals. Although Cologna is a bit weird. As is Justyna. Ankle injury, about the only way to get a skier down, both getting their golds.