Doping in XC skiing

[Cloxxki]

It’s also disturbing with Johaug who doesn’t have a very good technique. She really is wasting a lot of energy but still seemingly untouched by the toughest challenges. I might be wrong about her. I hope I’m wrong.

If Johaug is suspect to you, then Tora Berger must be worse, with her consistent last lap miracles. She's less tiny than Johaug, and surely laps harder in a finale, and nothing smooth about it.
Johaug being so tiny, half my weight actually, while she uses ski's nearly the same length, she compressed the snow much less than most any racer. With so little snow compression, even if she tried, there are smaller gains to be had skiing super neatly compared to a bulldozer like Bjoergen. We have seen what a gap Johaug can open on snow that requires smooth technique (for average sized skiers). She can take a lot of time out of Bjoergen and Kowalczyk there.
Also you'll appreciate that her downhill are barely slower. There is a difference usually, but in Sochi even at 70kph she was able to stay with the others. So her aerodynamics are quite good, and so is her glide.
Glide in it's fundamentals, is about ski width, length and pressure. Width being the same for both myself and Johaug (for reasons of typical technical shortsightedned in human powered performance sports), and her weight to ski length ratio being far superior, she'll actually have lower glide resistance PER KG than actually any heavier skier.
I don't know too much about the dynamics of being a smaller skier, but possible the agressive technique of Berger and Johaug is needed to get sufficient purchase through the poles and/or skis. At half the weight, they also have half the strength. But vertical oscillation is not half. I don't know...

If Northug is a unique talent, then so is Johaug. Being void of any sprinting power makes her look relatively believable compared to Bjoergen for sure, the long distance bodybuilder.
If I had to design the ideal ski racer around current (unfair to heavvier skiers) ski offerings, I'd propose someone like her. Any lighter and the downhills would become too slow. And heavier and glide advantage is gone. She could do with some fast twitch fibres, but hey, she is a 30km specialist. That's how she turned out, physically and mentally.

 

[Cloxxki]

Did he really perform that well in the 2013 Alpe Cermis stage? He wasn't in the top 3 time-wise at least for the climb, but I can't seem to find full results for the stage anywhere.

I am prepared to believe that Duerr being so strong on the Cortina stage is partly due to his mentality. It bothered me how people just tucked in to a group and rode it out till the finish. There should be changes like people coming from behind. If you have good power to weight, that climb is perfect to make good ground. Part of that stage is mental I am sure. And by far not everyone is giving it 100%. It's basically as a short alpine stage in cycling, ending with a bit of Flanders. With handicap start. Those able to ride alone, and hit their limit uphill, can make up ground.
I will agree that Duerr stood out. If he always was this strong, what has he been messing about the past years? Many others are doping, but he's a bit of a Muehlegg.

http://www.fis-ski.com/cross-countr...orld-predictions-final-stage-alpe-cermis.html
"The biggest challenge for the three Norwegians at the front of the field is Austrian Johannes Duerr – a climbing specialist starting 2 minutes behind Sundby in 5th (Canadian Harvey is in 4th overall – but not as strong a climber). Duerr did an impressive race on the Cortina-Toblach stage – winning the stage clearly. Duerr did also impress on the Final Climb last year – finishing the stage with the fourth best stage time and with the 2nd best time up the climb part of the stage."

 

[Cloxxki]

Sad story, makes you wonder whether biathlon really is ever safe. In the end it's a weapon in the hands of someone in some sort of struggle.
No rifle, no bullet. Makes the end that much easier to attain.
http://www.sport-fan.at/biathlon-trauer-um-deutsche-biathlethin-julia-pieper/17433/

 

[roundabout]

I am prepared to believe that Duerr being so strong on the Cortina stage is partly due to his mentality. It bothered me how people just tucked in to a group and rode it out till the finish. There should be changes like people coming from behind. If you have good power to weight, that climb is perfect to make good ground. Part of that stage is mental I am sure. And by far not everyone is giving it 100%. It's basically as a short alpine stage in cycling, ending with a bit of Flanders. With handicap start. Those able to ride alone, and hit their limit uphill, can make up ground.
I will agree that Duerr stood out. If he always was this strong, what has he been messing about the past years? Many others are doping, but he's a bit of a Muehlegg.

http://www.fis-ski.com/cross-countr...orld-predictions-final-stage-alpe-cermis.html
"The biggest challenge for the three Norwegians at the front of the field is Austrian Johannes Duerr – a climbing specialist starting 2 minutes behind Sundby in 5th (Canadian Harvey is in 4th overall – but not as strong a climber). Duerr did an impressive race on the Cortina-Toblach stage – winning the stage clearly. Duerr did also impress on the Final Climb last year – finishing the stage with the fourth best stage time and with the 2nd best time up the climb part of the stage."

I think he had mono or something like that.

Did finish 4th in the skiathlon in the junior or U23 worlds a few years back, but 1) it's not really that meaningful
2) zero guarantee that he was not doping then

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sad story, makes you wonder whether biathlon really is ever safe. In the end it's a weapon in the hands of someone in some sort of struggle.
No rifle, no bullet. Makes the end that much easier to attain.
http://www.sport-fan.at/biathlon-trauer-um-deutsche-biathlethin-julia-pieper/17433/

Don't think it belongs in the Clinic. Belongs in the general thread. It's not a doping related story, it's just a really tragic story.

Other media on the story mention that she's spent time in a clinic with an eating disorder, and elsewhere that both her parents were unsuccessful sportspeople who had very high expectations of her as a promising young talent. Here it's also suggested she has a history of psychological problems.

A lot of background checks and profiling etc. have to be done before biathletes are allowed to take their rifles home. If you ever see video of the Schülercup you'll see rifles are kept on a stand by the range, the kids have to pick the rifle up to shoot, then put it back securely before they ski off again, a bit like the final run/shoot biathlon-type closing event to the modern pentathlon. The guns are typically kept by the clubs and it's only when you get to official cadre status that the guns go with the athletes. The question should therefore not be on whether the sport is safe; at the end of the day it's a sport with guns. There are many safety rules due to the guns that result in DQs. Andrea Henkel's been DQed from a World Championships race for firing a live round during zeroing by accident; Gabriela Soukalová has been DQed for carrying a live weapon even momentarily when changing rifles; Henkel (again) has been DQed for skiing a lap with a live round in the chamber because of a misfire, and Florian Graf has been DQed for putting his face in front of his gun to clear the sights. The question is not so much, should biathletes have been allowed to take their rifles home but more, given the history we are being told about in these articles, should Julia Pieper have been allowed to take her rifle home? If she passed the background checks, were they inadequate, or were they fine but due to subsequent changes in her mental state, should they require more regular updating in view of a tragedy like this?

 

[Discgear]

If Johaug is suspect to you, then Tora Berger must be worse, with her consistent last lap miracles. She's less tiny than Johaug, and surely laps harder in a finale, and nothing smooth about it.

....


If I had to design the ideal ski racer around current (unfair to heavvier skiers) ski offerings, I'd propose someone like her. Any lighter and the downhills would become too slow. And heavier and glide advantage is gone. She could do with some fast twitch fibres, but hey, she is a 30km specialist. That's how she turned out, physically and mentally.

I like Johaug, no one would be happier if you're right about her, but I don't agree that her body constitution is the perfect raw model. She's far too light weight for the downhills and always have to pick up the hard work before the other skiers.

What's kind of strange is that she has improved her technique the last two years. Not the same frenetic duracell work as before, glides somewhat longer. But she was actually more succesful back in the stroboscopic skiing days.
Tora is of course another similar example of energy waisting technique. Almost unbeatable from time to time and the battery never seems to run out of juice.

 

[Cloxxki]

I like Johaug, no one would be happier if you're right about her, but I don't agree that her body constitution is the perfect raw model. She's far too light weight for the downhills and always have to pick up the hard work before the other skiers.

What's kind of strange is that she has improved her technique the last two years. Not the same frenetic duracell work as before, glides somewhat longer. But she was actually more succesful back in the stroboscopic skiing days.
Tora is of course another similar example of energy waisting technique. Almost unbeatable from time to time and the battery never seems to run out of juice.

Is Johaug too light in the sense of losing significant time on downhills? Not on the ultra-fast Sochi 30km. 70+ kph and she just stayed attached to Bjoergen. Not saying Johaug descends faster, ever than Bodyrgen, but I don't see her starting *every* ascend with a big deficit to make up. Often she'll be in a group and ski as an equal.
Remember that 5 meters lost at top speed dwnhill is just 0.3 seconds or so. One inspired climbing stride makes that up. Because there it's down to 1 meter.

Berger is different from most any other skier I've seen, in the difference between here pre-shoot speed and intensity compared to post-shoot, final lap. Her last lap was/is consistently on par with or faster than the likes of Neuner/Domracheva. Such a tiny lady, sub-par technique, and SO much speed. Her anaerobic speed, especially in the final 2-3km, is levels beyond that of others. She skies it like a sprinter does a single 1.2km race. Intensity is out of this world. Is she a magical Northug type, but with a 3km sprint rather than 500m?
It IS interesting that she has such a distinct turbo, and can't use it pre-shoot. And only rarely turns it on shortly pre-shoot 1, in relays and such situations.
Interesting physiology for sure, but brow-raising just as well. Especially when Johaug is considered suspect in the same context.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I just want to know how the hell Lars copes with his sister's appalling skiing technique compared to his grandiose, smooth brushstrokes, and how the hell Tora doesn't claw her eyes out watching her brother's attempts at shooting, when she can shoot all 5 from standing hitting dead centre in the time it takes him to work out which way round the rifle has to go.

 

[Cloxxki]

I just want to know how the hell Lars copes with his sister's appalling skiing technique compared to his grandiose, smooth brushstrokes, and how the hell Tora doesn't claw her eyes out watching her brother's attempts at shooting, when she can shoot all 5 from standing hitting dead centre in the time it takes him to work out which way round the rifle has to go.

It's the question everyone asks. Their parents did something really right, or really wrong. Or the mom has something to explain

 

[Armchaircyclist]

that' s the question for you and the norwegian media to explore. many posters already suggested their opinions...

as to the rest of your post, if northug being so sucky all along and being no news to anyone in norway before sochi, your inability to entertain my simple question - why the fork was he taken to sochi ? is norway really that poor on talent ? or you simply are unable to accept that you swallowed another spin that he was hitting the right form without ever showing one...

yes, fanboys are blind and i am happy to tell it as i see it.

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You must have trouble reading.
Northug being in bad form compared to his top form, still puts him easily into the norwegian squad. If it was new to everybody that his shape was in question, why did we discuss it up and down in our newspapers and discussion forums ?
If you tried presenting some facts, it would be easy to refute you, but your endless babble about "spin" gets a little tiring.
The facts are quite simple, Northug lost a lot of training, everybody was unsure of his form, his competitions before Sochi showed varying form, but a couple of good races. Unfortunately it was not enough, and in addition he got bad skis in the start of the games. How one cooks this up into a doping-conspiracy, I guess one needs the mind of a jealous Swede.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

I like Johaug, no one would be happier if you're right about her, but I don't agree that her body constitution is the perfect raw model. She's far too light weight for the downhills and always have to pick up the hard work before the other skiers.

What's kind of strange is that she has improved her technique the last two years. Not the same frenetic duracell work as before, glides somewhat longer. But she was actually more succesful back in the stroboscopic skiing days.
Tora is of course another similar example of energy waisting technique. Almost unbeatable from time to time and the battery never seems to run out of juice.

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She has been working on getting stronger, and becoming a better finisher. She has become better, but is still without a chance against the good finishers.

As to her results, I think she needs really tough conditions, preferably loose snow, to win. The heavier skiers like Bjørgen will always outsprint her in firm conditions with hard packed snow. I don't think she has become a worse skier, the results vary with the conditions.

 

[Cloxxki]

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She has been working on getting stronger, and becoming a better finisher. She has become better, but is still without a chance against the good finishers.

As to her results, I think she needs really tough conditions, preferably loose snow, to win. The heavier skiers like Bjørgen will always outsprint her in firm conditions with hard packed snow. I don't think she has become a worse skier, the results vary with the conditions.

It would be suspect if she started winning easy climbing hard surface sprint races. Against her body style and performace dynamic of skis.
Bjoergen is the sprinter muscle maniac that does't break a sweat in a 30km with 6x the 5-minute climb. And not a skinny girl in the world who can beat her over 30km. Worse than the Armstrong thing.

 

[BullsFan22]

Laura Orgue, Spain. 10th place in the women's 30km mass start in Sochi on the penultimate day of the Olympics a few days ago. I know the women's field isn't nearly as strong and deep as the men's, and that the chasing pack behind the asthmatics wasn't the greatest, but that result to me stood out, particularly as she hasn't had too many significant results in recent memory to suggest she was gonna fight for a top 10 at the Olympics. Oh, and she is Spanish.

 

[Saint Unix]

There was a Spanish guy who did quite well in the men's 50K too. Came in around the same time as Bauer, Jespersen and Gaillard, although those guys didn't have the best of races.

 

[kingjr]

There was a Spanish guy who did quite well in the men's 50K too. Came in around the same time as Bauer, Jespersen and Gaillard, although those guys didn't have the best of races.

Imanol Rojo, he was at the front for a bit when most of the favourites were changing skis.

 

[frenchfry]

The son of some family friends is doing his first world cup race this weekend. I wish I could tell them there is no doping problem in X-country skiing.

Despite winning a European cup and some races last year as a junior, he has never been tested...

 

[Armchaircyclist]

The son of some family friends is doing his first world cup race this weekend. I wish I could tell them there is no doping problem in X-country skiing.

Despite winning a European cup and some races last year as a junior, he has never been tested...

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You could tell them that the sport is clean enough that clean athletes win on a regular basis. Testing comes at a higher level, but is still insufficient as in most sports.
The training is very different from the old days, much more weights and upper-body strength today. I guess that can be a good thing as training gets more varied, and a cross-country perfect body is not like the concentration camp look of the typical long distance runner or cycling-climber.

 

[frenchfry]

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You could tell them that the sport is clean enough that clean athletes win on a regular basis. Testing comes at a higher level, but is still insufficient as in most sports.
The training is very different from the old days, much more weights and upper-body strength today. I guess that can be a good thing as training gets more varied, and a cross-country perfect body is not like the concentration camp look of the typical long distance runner or cycling-climber.

Indeed he does a lot of upper body strength and weights. I think he is well supported by family and coaches so hopefully he will be winning the big races soon on only bread, water and tartiflette.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

The Johannes Duerr case is interesting from a clinic perspective. Since he totally admits his doping, and says that there is no need for a b-sample, he seems credible even though a cheat of course.
And the interesting fact is that he had been doping the same way for quite a while, so he has done a lot of races on EPO without getting detected, and without any warnings for bio-passport. Good thing he did not do the usual "I made one terrible mistake, never seen drugs before etc etc"..

On the other side, one can argue that he got caught, so doing epo is obviously not 100% safe. His return to home-base during the olympics was probably so suspicious to some testers that they decided to do some extra testing.

 

[roundabout]

Were there no warnings for bio-passport? I've seen mentioned that he passed 14 tests this season. Seems reasonably high to me so he could have been possibly targeted.

 

[Pazuzu]

Bjoergen is the sprinter muscle maniac that does't break a sweat in a 30km with 6x the 5-minute climb. And not a skinny girl in the world who can beat her over 30km. Worse than the Armstrong thing.

Yep. She's a freak of nature. An outlier. An anomaly. A one in a trillion physical specimen!

Can you imagine if team Norway cloned Bjoergen? They'd never again miss a single podium. They could start 5-6 Bjoergens in every race, and between them, three of them would be bound to have good skies and 'be in the zone'. Total domination.

 

[Cloxxki]

Yep. She's a freak of nature. An outlier. An anomaly. A one in a trillion physical specimen!

Can you imagine if team Norway cloned Bjoergen? They'd never again miss a single podium. They could start 5-6 Bjoergens in every race, and between them, three of them would be bound to have good skies and 'be in the zone'. Total domination.

I think it's mostly worrisome (insult of our intellligence) that a sprint specialist gets this good at 30k's without starting to lose sprints. As narrow as the women's side of the sport is, that's rare to see combined in one person, if it wasn't that way from the get-go.
It's not like ski sprinters are lazy atheletes who don't log any miles.
Are we really to believe she has a better power to weight than Johaug, with that added bulk, and doesn't suffer from extra oxygen uptake to feed the fast-twitch fibres she's obviously got in spades?
Bjoergen is much more scary than Northug or even Cologna in terms of dominance. Northug CAN be broken on long hills. Bjoergen (in terms of build the anti-climber) cannot be broken even by Johaug (the ultimate climber). Not normal.

 

[Pazuzu]

... Are we really to believe she has a better power to weight than Johaug, with that added bulk, and doesn't suffer from extra oxygen uptake to feed the fast-twitch fibres she's obviously got in spades? ...

And to be so dominant at age 33. Sprinters usually fade by this age. Either she's the greatest physical specimen ever or the biggest fraud ever, to paraphrase GL.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Were there no warnings for bio-passport? I've seen mentioned that he passed 14 tests this season. Seems reasonably high to me so he could have been possibly targeted.

Timing matters with EPO. Safe EPO doses are going to be small to stay in the suspicious range. If they sanction him for EPO his scores must be ridiculous because the test is easier to defeat as it is complicated to perform and requires experience to interpret results.

The guy is claiming he's the lone doper. It will be interesting how this plays out after the sanction is done. He could go Floyd Landis on them.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

I think it's mostly worrisome (insult of our intellligence) that a sprint specialist gets this good at 30k's without starting to lose sprints. As narrow as the women's side of the sport is, that's rare to see combined in one person, if it wasn't that way from the get-go.
It's not like ski sprinters are lazy atheletes who don't log any miles.
Are we really to believe she has a better power to weight than Johaug, with that added bulk, and doesn't suffer from extra oxygen uptake to feed the fast-twitch fibres she's obviously got in spades?
Bjoergen is much more scary than Northug or even Cologna in terms of dominance. Northug CAN be broken on long hills. Bjoergen (in terms of build the anti-climber) cannot be broken even by Johaug (the ultimate climber). Not normal.

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If you think Bjørgen is doping all the time, she'd have to be pretty talented at hiding it, the team does stay together most of the year, and she shares a double room with Johaug on trips if I remember correctly. I understand well why she is suspected though, especially her breaks from world cup can seem suspicious. Of course you could argue the whole team is doped up, then I'd say they are REALLY talented at hiding it, since absolutely nothing has come out over the years, no dodgy doctors, no unhappy team members telling it all.

As to her not starting to lose sprints, she was #10 today. In the olympics she was knocked out in the semi-finals. She is usually the last one after the first 20 meters these days, but the "sprint" is usually a pretty hard event comparable to a 1500m run. It is nothing new that "sprinters" can do well in mass start over a long distance.