Doping in XC skiing

[neineinei]

Don't think you've seen this, or you would have been completely sold...
http://vimeo.com/m/9642428
He's was supposed to comment the finish of the mens skiathlon in Vancouver olympics, live on national TV...

Imagine one of these guys in the same situation, commenting OTHER athletes:
Armstrong
Mühlegg
Dählie
Wiggins
...

not to say there is anything wrong with Elofsson, but being emotional about sport and your countrymen winning in the Olympics doesn't prove you are clean. One simply doesn't have to be a complete ******* to dope. And being emotional about sport doesn't mean you can't be a ******* (just ask any football hooligan or the ****** running in front of the cyclists in TdF.)

If Armstrong set his mind to it he could cry a river big enough to make an even Grander Canyon while commentating Horner in last years Vuelta.

 

[neineinei]

http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-blodverdier-er-misvisende-1.11587245

Professor of sports physiology Jostein Hallén seems to say that the bio passport can't be used to prove doping? At least not by FIS. Also the Sysmex machine FIS used might be faulty...

NRK gives the date and place for two of Auklands tests.

15,3 (1,4)
16,5 (1,7)
16,3 (1,7)
16,6 (1,5)
16,1 (1,5)
16,6 (2,0)
16,1 (1,3)
17,0 (1,2) Salt Lake City February 2002
16,7 (1,7)
16,0 (1,0)
15,9 (1,0)
15,0 (2,0)
14,7 (1,3)
15,1 (1,4) Cogne 14 December 2002
14,6 (0,8) Ottepä 12 January 2003
16,1 (1,3)
14,6 (1,0)
16,1 (1,8)
15,3 (2,1)
15,7 (1,77)
15,5 (0,9)
16,2 (1,4)

The original list is from VG:
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10137684

 

[BullsFan22]

Don't think you've seen this, or you would have been completely sold...
http://vimeo.com/m/9642428
He's was supposed to comment the finish of the mens skiathlon in Vancouver olympics, live on national TV...

Imagine one of these guys in the same situation, commenting OTHER athletes:
Armstrong
Mühlegg
Dählie
Wiggins
...

Ok. And....?

 

[Nicko.]

not to say there is anything wrong with Elofsson, but being emotional about sport and your countrymen winning in the Olympics doesn't prove you are clean. One simply doesn't have to be a complete ******* to dope. And being emotional about sport doesn't mean you can't be a ******* (just ask any football hooligan or the ****** running in front of the cyclists in TdF.)

If Armstrong set his mind to it he could cry a river big enough to make an even Grander Canyon while commentating Horner in last years Vuelta.

Way to miss the point...
Here's a guy that HIMSELF was world class and got VERY emotional (not euphorial!) about OTHER world class athletes winning in a sport that was very shady, giving Sweden it's first XC olympic gold since ... wait for it ... pre-epo Calgary '88.

Suppose he WAS dirty himself, why the extreme reaction 7 years after his own career ended?
It is impossible for me to imagine any dirty champion being so emotional (NB not euphorial, not excited) about other winners.

Suppose he was the clean talent of a decade, imagine the supressed emotions that would bubble up when winning clean proved possible again. Not because the winner was a fellow countryman but because he knew the winner was clean.

This event took place BEFORE the blood values of the past was brought up in main stream media last year, just in case someone thinks it could be an act to fake 'cleans'...
Imagine a non-exposed Armstrong, say 2006, crying a river (not in a yankie-yeah! kind of way) over Horner winning the Vuelta, NO WAIT, over Landis winning the 2006 TdF

 

[Velo1ticker]

Could someone who saw the document (and understands Swedish better than I do..) please clarify if the blood profiles in the document were only from cross-country skiers or from all nordic ski sports? Or was this information given?

What puzzles me a bit is that three Finnish skiers would've had suspiciously high blood values. (Hopefully I understood this part correctly). Kaisa Varis is a given, but to find two other Finnish skiers you have to go quite far down the results lists.
[IF other nordic athletes could be considered, then two nordic combined athletes come straight into mind: Samppa Lajunen and Jaakko Tallus who I both found quite suspicious at the time.]

It wasn't an ordinary documentary - it was 100% focused on nailing Norwegians. Everyone else in the program was there to make the Norwegians look guilty. Like the segment with doping in cycling they used Steffen Kjærgaard (biggest/major doper in cycling?). SVT made a huge point about a Norwegian press conference. How is it possible to prove ones innocence 12 years after? What evidence can possible be produced to prove you were clean. Shouldn’t SVT prove their claim of doping?
When the Austrian explained how they beat the system it was automatically assumed that the Norwegian did the same. Elofsen could absolutely have done the same (not aiming for less than the legal limit but his normal values) but Elofsen was never asked about that. It became clear the program was like a Clint Eastwood western, the good (Elofsen), the bad (Norwegians) and the ugly (Mühlegg). Apparently it is possible for any Swede to dominate xc skiing without doping and impossible for a Norwegian. Svan, Wassberg, Mogren & Co beating known bloodbag users from Russia, Finnland and Germany all through 1980s and Elofsen 2000-2002.
Blodracet 2 proves that some of the accusations made in the fist program to be wrong. Kyrö (Finnish dope lord) said Norwegians ran a similar systematic doping; however with the numbers I saw it was clear that the Finns didn’t stop in 2001 and if one of two Norwegians on list is Hofstad with a certificate we are down to one man (Aukland). Russians, Estonia and Switzerland had more skiers with dodgy number than the Norwegians. Why not any questions to the Swiss or Russians?

 

[sworks]

Dählie is also a nice guy. Waited for the last man to finish before he left the area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVTnavf3QI4

 

[Shardi]

If you've won 29 championship medals on shady methods, it is a good thing to culture your own brand abit. Create the perception of beeing on the good side.
Take a look at how he accuses and discredits investigations of old blood samples etc nowadays.. Given his nature, it looks more like a part of a personal business model than genuine concern..

 

[figgelura]

http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-blodverdier-er-misvisende-1.11587245

Professor of sports physiology Jostein Hallén seems to say that the bio passport can't be used to prove doping? At least not by FIS. Also the Sysmex machine FIS used might be faulty...

NRK gives the date and place for two of Auklands tests.

15,3 (1,4)
16,5 (1,7)
16,3 (1,7)
16,6 (1,5)
16,1 (1,5)
16,6 (2,0)
16,1 (1,3)
17,0 (1,2) Salt Lake City February 2002
16,7 (1,7)
16,0 (1,0)
15,9 (1,0)
15,0 (2,0)
14,7 (1,3)
15,1 (1,4) Cogne 14 December 2002
14,6 (0,8) Ottepä 12 January 2003
16,1 (1,3)
14,6 (1,0)
16,1 (1,8)
15,3 (2,1)
15,7 (1,77)
15,5 (0,9)
16,2 (1,4)

The original list is from VG:
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10137684

I like that the norwegians dont change their tactics. Last year the few values did not proove anything and it was taken with HemoCue. What an insult. They said you have to meassure with an automatic red blood cell counter (bcc). When confronted with a vast number of values taken with bcc (sysmex) its still the Machines fault.

If anybody would Think Aukland got on the FIS special list becouse he had 14.6 in a competition you have to be norwegian. Its not Always how big the variation is but when it occurs. Hb values are on healthy people predictible. If you train hard pre big competition your values if Clean is going to drop and when you stop your hard training your values should come up again to normal level, abit increased if done on high level. If your values dont drop pre big competition and peaks exactly under limit right on competition and drops right after you end up on the list of suspicious athleats. If this happens more than once doping experts will say on tv that you doped.

 

[neineinei]

Being percived as a nice person doesn't prove you don't dope. Wiggins is a pratt but lots of people loves him, Armstrong is a psycho who lots of people though were a wonderful person, Dæhlie is generally thought of as a nice person, Elofsson gets emotional when he sees his countrymen win and Mühlegg is a reclusive. Mühlegg might have teared up over every singel medal won by Germany in Sochi, darbepoetin doesn't damage the tear production.

Mühlegg wasn't well liked prior to being caught, he was a weirdo. The others, Armstrong, Wiggins, Dæhlie and Elofsson all have fans who think they are outstanding and nice people. And they get very upset when anyone says their hero might have doped.

 

[Discgear]

Way to miss the point...
Here's a guy that HIMSELF was world class and got VERY emotional (not euphorial!) about OTHER world class athletes winning in a sport that was very shady, giving Sweden it's first XC olympic gold since ... wait for it ... pre-epo Calgary '88.

Suppose he WAS dirty himself, why the extreme reaction 7 years after his own career ended?
It is impossible for me to imagine any dirty champion being so emotional (NB not euphorial, not excited) about other winners.

Suppose he was the clean talent of a decade, imagine the supressed emotions that would bubble up when winning clean proved possible again. Not because the winner was a fellow countryman but because he knew the winner was clean.

Good point

Dählie is also a nice guy. Waited for the last man to finish before he left the area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVTnavf3QI4

Same guy who during his career showed off his superiority to the fellow olympic competitors by skiing backwards over the finishing line.....crushing them by minutes.

That kind of behaviour is not something that you would have expected from Elofsson. On the other hand, one of the most genuine and humble persons I've ever seen in XC-skiing was Mika Myllalae....

 

[Cloxxki]

@ToreBear
"I have a theory that the best skiers are not limited in their o2 transport capabilities at low altitude, but are at high altitude. Hence doping at High altitude could be really beneficial, and the o2 dopers will have an advantage."

Would you elaborate on that? Is blood doping a fallacy then, for sea level performance?

And how would skiing differ from cycling in that respect? Yes, we see GC dopers make huge differences on mountain top finishes, but this also has to do with the low air drag factor of alpine climbing. In a high-altitude flat time trial I would still expect smaller gaps between clean and blood doped.

Yeah, skiing at 1200-1300m gets me out of breath going at snail pace when I arrive on the tracks, having always live at sea level. But then, doesn't skiing take out breath away on any altitude? Racers don't try to perform right away when arriving at altitude, they take a few days to adjust and rest from the travels.

Lately I've been amazed that after 3-minute and longer sprint racers, heat winners cross the line with a bored look on their faces. Isn't 3 minutes enough to get the heart rate up, and start to breathe a little, at WC level FFS?
If any experienced skiers would jump in I'd appreciate.
I'm an MTB racer. Courses with lots of singletrack. A good start (loop) is essential or you're minutes behind instantly. You don't hold back the first few minutes. 3 minutes into an hour-race, even on the flats, I am pretty out of breath.
Is the difference the relatively easy descending recovery of skiing? The recovery doesn't seem as long and the sprint skiing really intense. Breathe a little, guys!

That said, I see biathletes crossing the line looking bored also.

 

[sworks]

That skiing backwards wasnt at all so bad as the thing Petter did against Hellner in Oslo. My comment on Dählie was mostly directed to BullsFan who, in some way, compared Dählie to Armstrong. And NO, I am not Norwegian. And by the way: There is a strong rumour that in Thunder Bay 50 k top-6 only 2 skiers had normal Hb values: Dählie and Forsberg. Forsberg quit competing partly because of that. (No, I have no links.)

http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski-VM_1995#50_km_fristil

 

[Shardi]

Bengt Saltin stated that all medalists at the 1995 World cup had hb values above 17.5 g/dl. That includes Björn Dählie.
Do we have any documented blood test values of him? No. Why? Beacuse it would show out of competition values of ~15.0, proving that he is a bloody doper like all the other usual suspects. Staining his stack of medals and his brand.
Both he and the Norwegian ski federation knows it. Its too much prestige and money involved to back down and show their hand. Both Dählies and the Ski federations behaviour regarding any investigations of old blood values, tests and performances is well in line and expected.

Stupidity did not get them where they are today.

 

[Discgear]

That skiing backwards wasnt at all so bad as the thing Petter did against Hellner in Oslo. My comment on Dählie was mostly directed to BullsFan who, in some way, compared Dählie to Armstrong. And NO, I am not Norwegian. And by the way: There is a strong rumour that in Thunder Bay 50 k top-6 only 2 skiers had normal Hb values: Dählie and Forsberg. Forsberg quit competing partly because of that. (No, I have no links.)

http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski-VM_1995#50_km_fristil

No links, but you describe it as a strong rumour. Howcome? Forsberg was by the way a fantastic technician in the freestyle disciplin.

 

[ToreBear]

I like that the norwegians dont change their tactics. Last year the few values did not proove anything and it was taken with HemoCue. What an insult. They said you have to meassure with an automatic red blood cell counter (bcc). When confronted with a vast number of values taken with bcc (sysmex) its still the Machines fault.

If anybody would Think Aukland got on the FIS special list becouse he had 14.6 in a competition you have to be norwegian. Its not Always how big the variation is but when it occurs. Hb values are on healthy people predictible. If you train hard pre big competition your values if Clean is going to drop and when you stop your hard training your values should come up again to normal level, abit increased if done on high level. If your values dont drop pre big competition and peaks exactly under limit right on competition and drops right after you end up on the list of suspicious athleats. If this happens more than once doping experts will say on tv that you doped.

Well lets look at his performance on the days that these tests were carried out:


15,1 (1,4) Cogne 14 December 2002
Here he split first place with Frode Estil, so it's 1st.
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=2164&raceid=4328

14,6 (0,8) Ottepä 12 January 2003
So here he seems to be missing some blood. A good theory would be that he had a full tank, then removed some to use later. That way the rets would be low despite him obviously not having enough blood, and it should have been done a few days ago. If you read the secret race you would know that they were in awful shape after the extraction.


So what were his result in Ottepä?

30th?
20th?
70th?
Did not Finnish?

Nope it was 2nd.
1.Jørgen Brink
2. Anders Aukland
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=2164&raceid=4152

So either he didn't really need that blood he just withdrew, or he did'nt feel sick despite his blood indicating he should be feeling sick.
Or, as the professors theory states, one which I think is sensible. The measurement was actually wrong. I don't know what they used, but as you, I would assume a sysmex. It's not an infallable machine as far as I know, and it has to be calibrated, and the procedure has to be correct in response to timing and his position when blood is drawn.

The Fis suspicion list was actually Saltins suspicious notes. You see, at that time Saltin was the Big Boss of Fis anti doping, and I don't think they had anyone else who could draw up a suspicion list.

So could Saltin be wrong?

Well, to me Auklands numbers seem completely legit, and there was no retest because of high values that would have made sure if the measurement was correct. His performance at the olympics seemed to not be as good as his World cup performances prior to the olympics would have indicated. In short his olympics were a tad mediocre.

So I have a hard time reconciling Aukland being on the suspicion list when this woman is not:
Hct Hgb % Rets Plats Datum
37,0 13,5 1,60 2001-11-23..............Looks quite normal.
38,0 14,3 2,50 2001-12-14..............Whaat? Must be an error.
38,0 14,3 2,40 2001-12-14..............Nope, no error her rets really are that high.
41,3 15,0 2,96 2001-12-22..............Damn those rets are high! Must be an error.
41,3 15,0 2,76 2001-12-22..............Nope, her rets and hgb really are increasing.
41,0 14,3 2,40 2002-02-07..............Well the hgb i a little lower, and her rets are a little down from the last test. Lets wait two days in case it's an altitude thing.

41,0 14,5 2,50 2002-02-09..............Nope, still high rets.

And this woman was not placed on the suspicious list, while Aukland was on it. To me that defies logic.

@ToreBear
"I have a theory that the best skiers are not limited in their o2 transport capabilities at low altitude, but are at high altitude. Hence doping at High altitude could be really beneficial, and the o2 dopers will have an advantage."

Would you elaborate on that? Is blood doping a fallacy then, for sea level performance?
.....

I'll have to explain later since I'm a bit tired and I need to be a bit more alert before I start writing.

Bengt Saltin stated that all medalists at the 1995 World cup had hb values above 17.5 g/dl. That includes Björn Dählie.
Do we have any documented blood test values of him? No. Why? Beacuse it would show out of competition values of ~15.0, proving that he is a bloody doper like all the other usual suspects. Staining his stack of medals and his brand.
Both he and the Norwegian ski federation knows it. Its too much prestige and money involved to back down and show their hand. Both Dählies and the Ski federations behaviour regarding any investigations of old blood values, tests and performances is well in line and expected.

Stupidity did not get them where they are today.

Well, when Saltin was asked for the source he referred to his predecessor, Peter Hemmingsson.

Hemmingssons response:

Det er bare er tull, sier en opprørt dopingjeger til Dagbladet.

It is just nonsense, "said an upset doping Hunter to Dagbladet.

And:

Jeg har aldri noensinne hørt om unormalt høye verdier i prøver tatt av Dæhlie, slik det er referert til. Det er bare tull, sier Hemmingsson.

I have never ever heard of abnormally high values in samples taken of Dæhlie, as it is referred to. It's just nonsense, "said Hemmingsson.

So between the guy responsible for the job at the time, and the guy who took over his job 7 years later and says the first guy told him, I'm going to trust the guy who was actually responsible for the testing at the time.
http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/03/01/...ranskning/bjorn_dehlie/bengt_saltin/25997163/

This guy agrees with Hemmingson:
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/svenske-lakaren-forsberg-bestulen-pa-silver

He was the Swedish team doctor in the 90s.

He says he had a source. Probably Hemmingson at the time.

No links, but you describe it as a strong rumour. Howcome? Forsberg was by the way a fantastic technician in the freestyle disciplin.

Here is a link perhaps to the originator of the rumor.
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/svenske-lakaren-forsberg-bestulen-pa-silver

 

[RdBiker]

It wasn't an ordinary documentary - it was 100% focused on nailing Norwegians. Everyone else in the program was there to make the Norwegians look guilty. Like the segment with doping in cycling they used Steffen Kjærgaard (biggest/major doper in cycling?). SVT made a huge point about a Norwegian press conference. How is it possible to prove ones innocence 12 years after? What evidence can possible be produced to prove you were clean. Shouldn’t SVT prove their claim of doping?
When the Austrian explained how they beat the system it was automatically assumed that the Norwegian did the same. Elofsen could absolutely have done the same (not aiming for less than the legal limit but his normal values) but Elofsen was never asked about that. It became clear the program was like a Clint Eastwood western, the good (Elofsen), the bad (Norwegians) and the ugly (Mühlegg). Apparently it is possible for any Swede to dominate xc skiing without doping and impossible for a Norwegian. Svan, Wassberg, Mogren & Co beating known bloodbag users from Russia, Finnland and Germany all through 1980s and Elofsen 2000-2002.
Blodracet 2 proves that some of the accusations made in the fist program to be wrong. Kyrö (Finnish dope lord) said Norwegians ran a similar systematic doping; however with the numbers I saw it was clear that the Finns didn’t stop in 2001 and if one of two Norwegians on list is Hofstad with a certificate we are down to one man (Aukland). Russians, Estonia and Switzerland had more skiers with dodgy number than the Norwegians. Why not any questions to the Swiss or Russians?

I didn't see it that way but maybe it depends on the nationality of the viewer or the colour of the glasses he or she uses.

You ask what the athletes could do... maybe allow FIS to release all their test values and allow/request retesting of old samples. The accusations are so dire that it is hard to imagine why a clean athlete wouldn't allow this to clear their name.

About the Finnish, I think a lot of people agree with you. I for one never assumed they would've stopped after Lahti. Probably the use got smaller and less organized (for a while) since I assume they had to start doing it more independently, but still it's far fetched to say they stopped completely. What I do find disturbing is that in addition to Varis, two other skiers were apparently also blood doping, and they still finished in places like 30.-40.

I know I shouldn't go there, but I think Jan Ullrich's comment can be applied to skiing too:
"Whoever still can't put one and one together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help."

 

[Discgear]

Here is a link perhaps to the originator of the rumor.
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/svenske-lakaren-forsberg-bestulen-pa-silver

Thanks for the link ToreBear, seems like it can be the source of the rumour.

Strange though when you actually read what was said. It's the Swedish team doctor in the 90s who says that Henrik Forsberg should have won silver in 50K Thunder Bay 1995 since a reliable source told him that at least 3 of the four first places in that run were skiers with very high blood values.

Now it gets interesting, it wasn't the source that told him that Dählie was clean, it was the Swedish team doctor who said that he himself believed Dählie was clean.

Medalists was Fauner, Dählie, Smirnov.

To my knowledge only the medalists were tested in those days.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Being percived as a nice person doesn't prove you don't dope. Wiggins is a pratt but lots of people loves him, Armstrong is a psycho who lots of people though were a wonderful person, Dæhlie is generally thought of as a nice person, Elofsson gets emotional when he sees his countrymen win and Mühlegg is a reclusive. Mühlegg might have teared up over every singel medal won by Germany in Sochi, darbepoetin doesn't damage the tear production.

Mühlegg wasn't well liked prior to being caught, he was a weirdo. The others, Armstrong, Wiggins, Dæhlie and Elofsson all have fans who think they are outstanding and nice people. And they get very upset when anyone says their hero might have doped.

------------------
How one is perceived proves nothing of course. But that being said, to compare how Armstrong and Dæhlie have been perceived is kind of stretching reality a bit. Did Dæhlie make any enemies at all ?
It's also interesting how the Elofsson fans in here seem to not notice Elofsson saying the Norwegians were clean.

Dæhlie these days seems like a humble guy, who is for instance very impressed by Bjørndalen, and how he stays motivated at 40. If he was an ******* I'd guess he'd seem ****ed off at Bjørndalen beating his records. Dæhlie was the guy famous for always giving it all in competition, and looking half-dead after finishing. Not exactly like the Muhleggs who usually look rested after finishing.

It's not exactly strange how people who are innocent are tired of doping questions, but Aukland has been in the press quite a lot, and answering questions politely.

 

[Walkman]

I always liked Elofsson, seemed like a good, honest, humble guy, great skier, had probably the best technique at the time. Having said that, I am not putting all my money on him being clean. If Don Catlin says that none of those races in SLC seemed clean, and Elofsson was right up there for two of them, not including the 30km which he unfortunately tried to follow Muhlegg. What about the year before? With the Finns doping, Muhlegg doping, Austrians and Italians doping, Russians (although their mens team wasn't as strong and as deep in those years), yet he managed to win two golds, I am not sure about that. He may have been super talented, but in the modern world of professional sports, particularly professional endurance sports, I am not gonna be completely sold on him and suckered in by the Moncoutie effect.

He had a VO2 Max of 88 mL/(kg·min). That't the same as Miguel Indurain had.


Difference is, Elofsson did this test when he was 20. Guy was a beast like no other. Fellow swede and sliver medalist in the 50km 1998 olympics, Niklas Jonsson said in an interview that during interval training in Ramsau, Elofsson beat the rest of the swedish male team almost as easily as those guys beat the swedish women…

 

[Armchaircyclist]

I like that the norwegians dont change their tactics. Last year the few values did not proove anything and it was taken with HemoCue. What an insult. They said you have to meassure with an automatic red blood cell counter (bcc). When confronted with a vast number of values taken with bcc (sysmex) its still the Machines fault.

If anybody would Think Aukland got on the FIS special list becouse he had 14.6 in a competition you have to be norwegian. Its not Always how big the variation is but when it occurs. Hb values are on healthy people predictible. If you train hard pre big competition your values if Clean is going to drop and when you stop your hard training your values should come up again to normal level, abit increased if done on high level. If your values dont drop pre big competition and peaks exactly under limit right on competition and drops right after you end up on the list of suspicious athleats. If this happens more than once doping experts will say on tv that you doped.

---------------------------------------
It seems strange to me how Aukland reacts, if he was doped why would he say something like this: "I had even higher blood-values on our own tests. I was well over 17 in altitude training in stelvio and seitser alm." (From norwegian newspaper VG.)
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10137684

Aukland asks the Norwegian ski federation to publish all the values they have, and is angry that he seems to be defending himself alone here. Other skier Ruud-Hofstad does not want his values published, but says he has natural high values as does his father a blood donor, and also his mother. Ruud-Hofstad was once denied start for high values, this never happened to Aukland.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

He had a VO2 Max of 88 mL/(kg·min). That't the same as Miguel Indurain had.


Difference is, Elofsson did this test when he was 20. Guy was a beast like no other. Fellow swede and sliver medalist in the 50km 1998 olympics, Niklas Jonsson said in an interview that during interval training in Ramsau, Elofsson beat the rest of the swedish male team almost as easily as those guys beat the swedish women…

-------------------------
What about Dæhlie's recorded max ? 96 seems incredible of course, but it's there on that list:
http://www.topendsports.com/testing/records/vo2max.htm

 

[Walkman]

-------------------------
What about Dæhlie's recorded max ? 96 seems incredible of course, but it's there on that list:
http://www.topendsports.com/testing/records/vo2max.htm

Elofssons value was confirmed in a book a read with a source that I found trustworthy. A random site on the internet does not compare. Also, the site even says there might not have been a test of 96 but rather of 90. That value for Dæhlie has been thrown around for a while and I have never seen a good source, hence my doubts.

 

[neineinei]

Thanks for the link ToreBear, seems like it can be the source of the rumour.

Strange though when you actually read what was said. It's the Swedish team doctor in the 90s who says that Henrik Forsberg should have won silver in 50K Thunder Bay 1995 since a reliable source told him that at least 3 of the four first places in that run were skiers with very high blood values.

Now it gets interesting, it wasn't the source that told him that Dählie was clean, it was the Swedish team doctor who said that he himself believed Dählie was clean.

Medalists was Fauner, Dählie, Smirnov.

To my knowledge only the medalists were tested in those days.

According to Peter Hemmingsson, who was in charge of the anti-doping testing in Thunder Bay in 1995, tests were only taken in three of the cross country races and one of the nordic combined competitions.

Ifølge FIS' medisinske oppsynsmann ved 1995-mesterskapet i Thunder Bay ble det bare utført tester ved tre langrennsøvelser og én kombinertøvelse, og ingen svenske eller norske utøvere hadde hemoglobinnivåer over grense på 17,5.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/03/01/...ranskning/bjorn_dehlie/bengt_saltin/25997163/

The blood screening prior to races was first used in the FIS Nordic World Ski Championships in 1997.

If I only could test at 3 races I would have picked the men's 50 km as one of them, but we don't know for sure that they tested the blood of the podium in the Thunder Bay 50 km.

What we do know is that if Hemmingsson was telling the truth about the testing in Thunder Bay what Uppdrag granskning claimed about all the medalists in Thunder Bay having HB over 17,5 doesn't add up. They didn't test them all, so how can anyone know that they all were over 17,5?

 

[Walkman]

According to Peter Hemmingsson, who was in charge of the anti-doping testing in Thunder Bay in 1995, tests were only taken in three of the cross country races and one of the nordic combined competitions.



http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/03/01/...ranskning/bjorn_dehlie/bengt_saltin/25997163/

The blood screening prior to races was first used in the FIS Nordic World Ski Championships in 1997.

If I only could test at 3 races I would have picked the men's 50 km as one of them, but we don't know for sure that they tested the blood of the podium in the Thunder Bay 50 km.

What we do know is that if Hemmingsson was telling the truth about the testing in Thunder Bay what Uppdrag granskning claimed about all the medalists in Thunder Bay having HB over 17,5 doesn't add up. They didn't test them all, so how can anyone know that they all were over 17,5?

Only 7 skiers did take individual medals on the men's side. So it's possible to only test 3out of 4 races and still test all the one's who did win a medal.

 

[neineinei]

Only 7 skiers did take individual medals on the men's side. So it's possible to only test 3out of 4 races and still test all the one's who did win a medal.

But there were also a relay. Not to mention the womens races. Why would they use all the tests on the men?