figgelura said:
I like that the norwegians dont change their tactics. Last year the few values did not proove anything and it was taken with HemoCue. What an insult. They said you have to meassure with an automatic red blood cell counter (bcc). When confronted with a vast number of values taken with bcc (sysmex) its still the Machines fault.
If anybody would Think Aukland got on the FIS special list becouse he had 14.6 in a competition you have to be norwegian. Its not Always how big the variation is but when it occurs. Hb values are on healthy people predictible. If you train hard pre big competition your values if Clean is going to drop and when you stop your hard training your values should come up again to normal level, abit increased if done on high level. If your values dont drop pre big competition and peaks exactly under limit right on competition and drops right after you end up on the list of suspicious athleats. If this happens more than once doping experts will say on tv that you doped.
Well lets look at his performance on the days that these tests were carried out:
15,1 (1,4) Cogne 14 December 2002
Here he split first place with Frode Estil, so it's 1st.
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=2164&raceid=4328
14,6 (0,8) Ottepä 12 January 2003
So here he seems to be missing some blood. A good theory would be that he had a full tank, then removed some to use later. That way the rets would be low despite him obviously not having enough blood, and it should have been done a few days ago. If you read the secret race you would know that they were in awful shape after the extraction.
So what were his result in Ottepä?
30th?
20th?
70th?
Did not Finnish?
Nope it was 2nd.
1.Jørgen Brink
2. Anders Aukland
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=2164&raceid=4152
So either he didn't really need that blood he just withdrew, or he did'nt feel sick despite his blood indicating he should be feeling sick.
Or, as the professors theory states, one which I think is sensible. The measurement was actually wrong. I don't know what they used, but as you, I would assume a sysmex. It's not an infallable machine as far as I know, and it has to be calibrated, and the procedure has to be correct in response to timing and his position when blood is drawn.
The Fis suspicion list was actually Saltins suspicious notes. You see, at that time Saltin was the Big Boss of Fis anti doping, and I don't think they had anyone else who could draw up a suspicion list.
So could Saltin be wrong?
Well, to me Auklands numbers seem completely legit, and there was no retest because of high values that would have made sure if the measurement was correct. His performance at the olympics seemed to not be as good as his World cup performances prior to the olympics would have indicated. In short his olympics were a tad mediocre.
So I have a hard time reconciling Aukland being on the suspicion list when this woman is not:
Hct Hgb % Rets Plats Datum
37,0 13,5 1,60 2001-11-23..............Looks quite normal.
38,0 14,3 2,50 2001-12-14..............Whaat? Must be an error.
38,0 14,3 2,40 2001-12-14..............Nope, no error her rets really are that high.
41,3 15,0 2,96 2001-12-22..............Damn those rets are high! Must be an error.
41,3 15,0 2,76 2001-12-22..............Nope, her rets and hgb really are increasing.
41,0 14,3 2,40 2002-02-07..............Well the hgb i a little lower, and her rets are a little down from the last test. Lets wait two days in case it's an altitude thing.
41,0 14,5 2,50 2002-02-09..............Nope, still high rets.
And this woman was not placed on the suspicious list, while Aukland was on it. To me that defies logic.
Cloxxki said:
@ToreBear
"I have a theory that the best skiers are not limited in their o2 transport capabilities at low altitude, but are at high altitude. Hence doping at High altitude could be really beneficial, and the o2 dopers will have an advantage."
Would you elaborate on that? Is blood doping a fallacy then, for sea level performance?
.....
I'll have to explain later since I'm a bit tired and I need to be a bit more alert before I start writing.
Shardi said:
Bengt Saltin stated that all medalists at the 1995 World cup had hb values above 17.5 g/dl. That includes Björn Dählie.
Do we have any documented blood test values of him? No. Why? Beacuse it would show out of competition values of ~15.0, proving that he is a bloody doper like all the other usual suspects. Staining his stack of medals and his brand.
Both he and the Norwegian ski federation knows it. Its too much prestige and money involved to back down and show their hand. Both Dählies and the Ski federations behaviour regarding any investigations of old blood values, tests and performances is well in line and expected.
Stupidity did not get them where they are today.
Well, when Saltin was asked for the source he referred to his predecessor, Peter Hemmingsson.
Hemmingssons response:
Det er bare er tull, sier en opprørt dopingjeger til Dagbladet.
It is just nonsense, "said an upset doping Hunter to Dagbladet.
And:
Jeg har aldri noensinne hørt om unormalt høye verdier i prøver tatt av Dæhlie, slik det er referert til. Det er bare tull, sier Hemmingsson.
I have never ever heard of abnormally high values in samples taken of Dæhlie, as it is referred to. It's just nonsense, "said Hemmingsson.
So between the guy responsible for the job at the time, and the guy who took over his job 7 years later and says the first guy told him, I'm going to trust the guy who was actually responsible for the testing at the time.
http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/03/01/...ranskning/bjorn_dehlie/bengt_saltin/25997163/
This guy agrees with Hemmingson:
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/svenske-lakaren-forsberg-bestulen-pa-silver
He was the Swedish team doctor in the 90s.
He says he had a source. Probably Hemmingson at the time.
Discgear said:
No links, but you describe it as a strong rumour. Howcome? Forsberg was by the way a fantastic technician in the freestyle disciplin.
Here is a link perhaps to the originator of the rumor.
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/svenske-lakaren-forsberg-bestulen-pa-silver