Doping in XC skiing

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Jul 16, 2012
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Walkman said:
Elofssons value was confirmed in a book a read with a source that I found trustworthy. A random site on the internet does not compare. Also, the site even says there might not have been a test of 96 but rather of 90. That value for Dæhlie has been thrown around for a while and I have never seen a good source, hence my doubts.
-------------
Dæhlie's value has been referred to endlessly since it was recorded at "toppidrettsenteret" ("center for elite sport") in Norway. By the way, another Norwegian has beaten his record now. Confirmed in this article in english here:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12929/If-all-goes-to-plan-big-future-predicted-for-junior-world-champion-Oskar-Svendsen.aspx
 
Apr 9, 2013
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Aukland

http://www.svt.se/ug/article1869659.svt/binary/FIS article Jakob Moerkerberg.pdf

"The blood profile from a skier who was tested
positive for Darbepoetin is presented in Fig. 3. The
variations in both [Hb] and %rets during the
3-month sampling period are typical of bone marrow
stimulation caused by rhEPO/Darbepoetin abuse. It
shows a marked increase in %rets before an increase
in [Hb], followed by a decrease in %rets when
Darbepoetin administration has ceased, and the
[Hb] has reached a high level."

This is how they use the bloodvalues to detect suspicious athletes. It is not only the variation in hb but also compared to the variation in rets and compared in time to big events. There is a significant drop in rets before the hb peaks. If you look at fig 3 in this link this is very clear. If we assume Auklands values are in a row i think we could clearly se this patern in 2001-2002 up to salt lake.

15,3 1,40 2001-11-25
16,5 1,70
16,3 1,70
16,6 2,00
16,1 1,50
16,6 1,50
16,1 1,30
17,0 1,20 Salt Lake City 2002-02-12

Here is a serie of numbers during three months up to SL just as the guy in fig.3 and we can see how hb is rising all the way to the olympics. Rets is peaking at 2,0 and doing a significant drop well before hb peaks right on the olympics. The exact same pattern as the Darbepotein guy in fig.3. This is according to all the dopinghunters writing this article a typical example how bloodvalues change when doing Darbepotein/epo. If the values with rets had gone up and down it would have been more insecure to do the asumption that the values and dates werent in a row.
 
May 19, 2010
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Hemmingsson also said specifically that no Norwegian or Swedish skier had HB over 17,5. And that they were suspicious of someone other than the Norwegians and the Swedes. The Russian women were dominating cross country skiing at the time.

Winners of the womens cross country relay in the 1990's:

1991 World Championship: Soviet Union
1992 Olympics: Unified Team (former USSR)
1993 World Championship: Russia
1994 Olympics: Russia
1995 World Championship: Russia
1997 World Championship: Russia
1998 Olympics: Russia
1999 World Championship: Russia

Why wouldn't FIS want to spend at least one of their blood testings on the women in 1995?
 
May 19, 2011
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neineinei said:
http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-blodverdier-er-misvisende-1.11587245

Professor of sports physiology Jostein Hallén seems to say that the bio passport can't be used to prove doping? At least not by FIS. Also the Sysmex machine FIS used might be faulty...

NRK gives the date and place for two of Auklands tests.

15,3 (1,4)
16,5 (1,7)
16,3 (1,7)
16,6 (1,5)
16,1 (1,5)
16,6 (2,0)
16,1 (1,3)
17,0 (1,2) Salt Lake City February 2002
16,7 (1,7)
16,0 (1,0)
15,9 (1,0)
15,0 (2,0)
14,7 (1,3)
15,1 (1,4) Cogne 14 December 2002
14,6 (0,8) Ottepä 12 January 2003
16,1 (1,3)
14,6 (1,0)
16,1 (1,8)
15,3 (2,1)
15,7 (1,77)
15,5 (0,9)
16,2 (1,4)

The original list is from VG:
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10137684
He took 3 tests at Salt Lake City. I think it's the 16,1 and the 16,7 together with the 17,0 (which was taken at February 12th).

Also, with the Cogne and Ottepää dates we can assume that Val di Fiemme is close by. If we compare with these dates, it should be the next one. But Aukland raced several more races, and it seems strange that they wouldn't take more tests ahead of the championship.

In any case I don't think this speaks to Aukland's advantage. It does look very suspicious. Would be nice to know his normal level today though.

figgelura said:
http://www.svt.se/ug/article1869659.svt/binary/FIS article Jakob Moerkerberg.pdf

"The blood profile from a skier who was tested
positive for Darbepoetin is presented in Fig. 3. "
That's quite interesting, because those numbers must be Mühlegg's test results (The last result is from the day of the 50k in Salt Lake City -- his b-test came up positive the next day if I remember correctly). I wonder why this wasn't included in the show.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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MrRoboto said:
The Norwegian press finally picked up on the "positives" from Salt Lake City:
http://www.tv2.no/2014/03/07/sport/5387938#.UxrXgc5FDpq

Catlin claims they never confirmed the positives because the tests were never 100% completed. Apparently it was his decision to shut it down because they were so swamped with work from the other positives.
Good so, but it seems that the Norwegian press - I've seen articles in more papers about NYTs article - have all excluded the most controversial part:

Jacques Rogge, had decided against pursuing their cases because “it would raise a huge stink around the world.”
 
May 19, 2011
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Discgear said:
Good so, but it seems that the Norwegian press - I've seen articles in more papers about NYTs article - have all excluded the most controversial part:

Jacques Rogge, had decided against pursuing their cases because “it would raise a huge stink around the world.”
That's true, although you omit an important part of the sentence:
'he and the International Olympic Committee president at the time, Jacques Rogge, had decided against pursuing their cases because “it would raise a huge stink around the world.”'

TV2 definitively should have asked about this, but this expands on what happened -- Instead of having the whole process explained in one very vague sentence, Catlin actually says quite in depth what happened here.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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neineinei said:
According to Peter Hemmingsson, who was in charge of the anti-doping testing in Thunder Bay in 1995, tests were only taken in three of the cross country races and one of the nordic combined competitions.
neineinei said:
If I only could test at 3 races I would have picked the men's 50 km as one of them, but we don't know for sure that they tested the blood of the podium in the Thunder Bay 50 km.
Well, we don’t know exactly what Hemmingson meant. To me it makes more sense that it was three male and three female events. But anyhow I agree with your conclusion that the men 50 K was likely one of those events, especially since we also have a reliable source – according to the Swedish team doctor – that this event was tested.

Walkman said:
Only 7 skiers did take individual medals on the men's side. So it's possible to only test 3 out of 4 races and still test all the one's who did win a medal.
If indeed three male events were tested, Saltin could actually be right that all the medalists had abnormal blood values.

neineinei said:
What we do know is that if Hemmingsson was telling the truth about the testing in Thunder Bay what Uppdrag granskning claimed about all the medalists in Thunder Bay having HB over 17,5 doesn't add up.
No we don’t know that. Once again, It's the Swedish team doctor in the 90s who says that Henrik Forsberg (5th in that race) should have won silver in 50K Thunder Bay 1995 since a reliable source told him that at least 3 of the four first places in that run were skiers with very high blood values.

You could have very high blood values without peeking over 17,5. Maybe some of those medalists didn’t go over the limit but was close, 17.2 is still a very high value especially with the knowledge we have today. The quote of the Swedish team doctor was from last year.

It seems that the Swedish and Norwegian ski federations have an agreement to never accuse one another. That has become painstakingly clear in the two documentaries by Uppdrag Granskning. Especially the NSF like to speak about “we and the swedes”.

Now look into this once more, it wasn't the source that told the Swedish team doctor that Dählie was clean, it was the Swedish team doctor himself who said that he believed Dählie was clean. Hence, since three skiers in front of Forsberg - who was 5th - had very high values, his conclusion was probably something like this:
Well it can’t be Dählie since he is a Norwegian, therefore it must have been the gold medalist, bronze medalist and the 4th place who was Vanzetta.

Medalists was Fauner, Dählie, Smirnov.

Again, to my knowledge only the medalists were tested in those days. It doesn’t make sense that they should have tested the gold medalist, not the silver medalist but then the bronze medalist and the runner up.
 
May 19, 2010
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Seems Aftenbladet (in the skiing/biathlon metropol Stavanger) was first, they have spoken with Catlin. Then the others reported that they had read it in Aftenbladet.
http://www.aftenbladet.no/100Sport/skiskyting/Testansvarlig-hevder-mistenkelige-dopingprover-fra-OL-ble-droppet-424210_1.snd

After a while even the Swedes had read it, and so it was reported there. I don't think this was covered by the Swedish press until yesteday either.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/article18498566.ab

The VG journalist with a copy of the 5000 FIS blood tests retweeted Macurs tweet about her article a month ago, on February 7. It is not as if they didn't know about it.
 
May 19, 2011
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neineinei said:
Seems Aftenbladet (in the skiing/biathlon metropol Stavanger) was first, they have spoken with Catlin. Then the others reported that they had read it in Aftenbladet
TV2 writes that they have spoken with Catlin.
 
Feb 15, 2014
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Armchaircyclist said:
-------------------------
What about Dæhlie's recorded max ? 96 seems incredible of course, but it's there on that list:
http://www.topendsports.com/testing/records/vo2max.htm
If you follow the list to one of its sources, you will note that Espen Bjerke's result, for example, has varied quite a lot over a relatively short period of time - 96, 86, 91:
http://fasterskier.com/article/hofstad-closing-in-on-the-vo2-max-record/

Comparing the biggest scores each athlete has reputedly achieved in some vo2max test seems to me to be a fruitless exercise, at least when it comes to answering some question of "biggest natural talent". Indurain had one reported value over 100, in the topendsports article his result was reported as 88...
 
Mar 4, 2013
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In the Skavlan show yesterday http://www.svtplay.se/video/1874630/del-9-av-12, Ski president Erik Röste really embarresed himself and the NSF with very strange arguments. You could really see how frustrated Aukland was with his federation. Aukland mad a very strong and honest impression until at 30.41, when the talk show host suddenly asks Aukland:
Have you ever been doping?

First answer is ... well misty. He talks about the moral in Norwegian skiing and so on..... Skavlan asks again:
Yes or No, have you been doping?

.......I haven't done it. [smiles]

Skavlan asks:

Have you ever used enhancing drugs that later have been prohibited?

No, I haven't [smiles]
 
Mar 4, 2010
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figgelura said:
I like that the norwegians dont change their tactics. Last year the few values did not proove anything and it was taken with HemoCue. What an insult. They said you have to meassure with an automatic red blood cell counter (bcc). When confronted with a vast number of values taken with bcc (sysmex) its still the Machines fault.
4 consecutive tests all showing a measurement error of 1-1.5 g/dl seems like a rather ridiculous claim. :eek:

ToreBear said:
Well lets look at his performance on the days that these tests were carried out:


15,1 (1,4) Cogne 14 December 2002
Here he split first place with Frode Estil, so it's 1st.
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=2164&raceid=4328

14,6 (0,8) Ottepä 12 January 2003
So here he seems to be missing some blood. A good theory would be that he had a full tank, then removed some to use later. That way the rets would be low despite him obviously not having enough blood, and it should have been done a few days ago. If you read the secret race you would know that they were in awful shape after the extraction.


So what were his result in Ottepä?

30th?
20th?
70th?
Did not Finnish?

Nope it was 2nd.
1.Jørgen Brink
2. Anders Aukland
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&competitorid=2164&raceid=4152

So either he didn't really need that blood he just withdrew, or he did'nt feel sick despite his blood indicating he should be feeling sick.
Or, as the professors theory states, one which I think is sensible. The measurement was actually wrong. I don't know what they used, but as you, I would assume a sysmex. It's not an infallable machine as far as I know, and it has to be calibrated, and the procedure has to be correct in response to timing and his position when blood is drawn.
This is such a straw man. No one thinks Aukland's Hb 14.6 and ret% 0.8 indicates blood withdrawal. We think the 4 consecutive tests in the Hb 14.6-15.1 range indicate that 16.X is not his natural mean.

Why did he still do well in those races? Well, there was a considerable normalisation of both Hb and retics in WC races post Salt Lake city. There are several plausible reasons for this. A test for darbepoetin had been introduced, the sport had been tarnished by huge scandals at the last couple of major championships and FIS announced the introduction of blood profiling and targeted testing.

I found this article from 2003:

http://www.expressen.se/sport/svenske-dopingjagaren-skidakarna-ar-tvungna-att-uppge-var-de-finns/

Bengt Saltin is optimistic: - It looks tremendously better than a year ago. We now see a normal blood picture in most of the field in the World Cup.
Which is consistent with the data Uppdrag Granskning got a hold of. 2002-2003 looks like the cleanest season in 2001-2007.

But maybe it was a matter of measurement error? :rolleyes:
 
Mar 4, 2010
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neineinei said:
Anna Karin Zidek (née Olofsson) says she is one of the unnamed Swedes in the Uppdrag granskning program:

http://www.expressen.se/sport/vintersport/hon-trader-fram-jag-har-inget-att-dolja/

She says she has hereditary haemochromatosis.

Wolfgang Pichler vouches for her:

http://www.expressen.se/sport/vintersport/hundra-procent-saker-att-hon-inte-var-dopad/
In other news, haemochromatosis does not cause abnormal red blood cell production.

http://www.expressen.se/sport/skidskytte/lakare-skeptiska-till-acos-blodforklaring/
 
Mar 19, 2009
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May have been discussed earlier.
But Ole Einar Bjoerndalen has decided to continue another 2 years. He found that he's overcome "back problems" and is now competitive again. Wants to participate the 2016 Oslo Worlds.

Going totally Longo on us.
 
Cloxxki said:
May have been discussed earlier.
But Ole Einar Bjoerndalen has decided to continue another 2 years. He found that he's overcome "back problems" and is now competitive again. Wants to participate the 2016 Oslo Worlds.

Going totally Longo on us.
I've read/heard somewhere that he wants to compete in Falun in 2015 in the Nordic Worlds.

Don't know if true of course.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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roundabout said:
I've read/heard somewhere that he wants to compete in Falun in 2015 in the Nordic Worlds.

Don't know if true of course.
I'm almost completely sure this is a false rumour. He wouldn't compete there unless he thought he could win, and I don't see that happening. He has said he wants to participate in the Kontiolahti and Holmenkollen world championships.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Womans 30K in Holmenkollen :eek:

1) Marit Bjørgen, Norge 1.20.55,7
2) Therese Johaug, Norge +1.41,8
8) Kristin Størmer Steira, Norge +3.54,9
13) Heidi Weng +4.27,4
17) Marthe Kristoffersen +4.30,9

Same country. Can't be the famous stone grinding effect or the horrible Sochi waxing problems. Say what you want about Bjoergen but it takes some balls to simply destroy the rest of the field in this manner, a week when everyone talks about widespread doping in XC-skiing.

Bjoergen is amazing, to be able to keep that beautiful technique throughout the race takes some incredible strength. Johaugs skiing technique is laughable, still smashing rest of the field.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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Discgear said:
Womans 30K in Holmenkollen :eek:

1) Marit Bjørgen, Norge 1.20.55,7
2) Therese Johaug, Norge +1.41,8
8) Kristin Størmer Steira, Norge +3.54,9
13) Heidi Weng +4.27,4
17) Marthe Kristoffersen +4.30,9

Same country. Can't be the famous stone grinding effect or the horrible Sochi waxing problems. Say what you want about Bjoergen but it takes some balls to simply destroy the rest of the field in this manner, a week when everyone talks about widespread doping in XC-skiing.

Bjoergen is amazing, to be able to keep that beautiful technique throughout the race takes some incredible strength. Johaugs skiing technique is laughable, still smashing rest of the field.
Why do you think people shouldn't be skeptical of Bjoergen?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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MustIski said:
Aukland won that world cup race in Kuopio Finland, november 2011. Norwegians took places 1 - 8 ahead of Elofsson and Muhlegg. According to my bad memory, blood values from that race where mentioned somewehere in this topic or Blodracet.
According to this article in VG http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/artikkel.php?artid=3193748 (haven't found the original article in Helsingin Sanomat) 60% of the skiers in places 1-15 had abnormal blood values in that race in Kuopio November 2001. Scientist dr. Jim Stray-Gundersen was the source. VG said in the article that they had failed to get in contact with Stray-Gundersen before the article was published. It's quite amazing that they didn't do a follow up of this sensational stuff!

VG said it was unclear if Helsingin Sanomat meant only the men’s race or both the women’s 10K and men’s 15K. Women’s race was won by Bente Skari with another 3 Norwegian ladies making it into the top 15, among them Marit Bjoergen.

For Sweden and Elofsson this start of the World Cup season 2001 was a big shock. The Olympics in Salt Lake was coming up in a few months and to see this Norwegian dominance must have been devastating for the self-confidence. For the Norwegians this race was extremely important. To just make it into the Olympic team you had to deliver in the opening WC race, and so they did!

1 AUKLAND Anders 1972 NOR 38:55.0 0.00
2 JEVNE Erling 1966 NOR 39:03.3 +8.3
3 ESTIL Frode 1972 NOR 39:28.3 +33.3
4 HJELMESET Odd-Bjoern 1971 NOR 39:49.7 +54.7
5 SKJELDAL Kristen 1967 NOR 39:57.8 +1:02.8
6 ALSGAARD Thomas 1972 NOR 40:00.8 +1:05.8
7 BJONVIKEN Tore 1975 NOR 40:02.9 +1:07.9
8 BJERVIG Espen 1972 NOR 40:04.0 +1:09.0
9 ELOFSSON Per 1977 SWE 40:05.6 +1:10.6
10 MUEHLEGG Johann 1970 SPA 40:08.3 +1:13.3
11 REPO Sami 1971 FIN 40:20.4 +1:25.4
12 MAE Jaak 1972 EST 40:20.6 +1:25.6
13 ROTCHEV Vassili 1980 RUS 40:23.2 +1:28.2
14 IVANOV Mikhail 1977 RUS 40:25.3 +1:30.3
15 FREDRIKSSON Mathias 1973 SWE 40:29.6 +1:34.6
 
May 19, 2010
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Discgear said:
According to this article in VG http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/artikkel.php?artid=3193748 (haven't found the original article in Helsingin Sanomat) 60% of the skiers in places 1-15 had abnormal blood values in that race in Kuopio November 2001. Scientist dr. Jim Stray-Gundersen was the source. VG said in the article that they had failed to get in contact with Stray-Gundersen before the article was published. It's quite amazing that they didn't do a follow up of this sensational stuff!

VG said it was unclear if Helsingin Sanomat meant only the men’s race or both the women’s 10K and men’s 15K. Women’s race was won by Bente Skari with another 3 Norwegian ladies making it into the top 15, among them Marit Bjoergen.

For Sweden and Elofsson this start of the World Cup season 2001 was a big shock. The Olympics in Salt Lake was coming up in a few months and to see this Norwegian dominance must have been devastating for the self-confidence. For the Norwegians this race was extremely important. To just make it into the Olympic team you had to deliver in the opening WC race, and so they did!

1 AUKLAND Anders 1972 NOR 38:55.0 0.00
2 JEVNE Erling 1966 NOR 39:03.3 +8.3
3 ESTIL Frode 1972 NOR 39:28.3 +33.3
4 HJELMESET Odd-Bjoern 1971 NOR 39:49.7 +54.7
5 SKJELDAL Kristen 1967 NOR 39:57.8 +1:02.8
6 ALSGAARD Thomas 1972 NOR 40:00.8 +1:05.8
7 BJONVIKEN Tore 1975 NOR 40:02.9 +1:07.9
8 BJERVIG Espen 1972 NOR 40:04.0 +1:09.0
9 ELOFSSON Per 1977 SWE 40:05.6 +1:10.6
10 MUEHLEGG Johann 1970 SPA 40:08.3 +1:13.3
11 REPO Sami 1971 FIN 40:20.4 +1:25.4
12 MAE Jaak 1972 EST 40:20.6 +1:25.6
13 ROTCHEV Vassili 1980 RUS 40:23.2 +1:28.2
14 IVANOV Mikhail 1977 RUS 40:25.3 +1:30.3
15 FREDRIKSSON Mathias 1973 SWE 40:29.6 +1:34.6

A list of "suspicious skiers" compiled by Stray-Gundersen was published (without his consent) by a journalist in a book in 2002.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/04/08/sport/ski/langrenn/andrus_veerpalu/16113928/

In "Seier'n er vår" he leaked the names of 12 medal winners from Lahti World Championship in 2001 that were on a "suspect list" he had access to. This list contained a total of 23 athletes from 13 nations (no Norwegians and Swedes) with "very abnormal" blood values.
 

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