Doping in XC skiing

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Armchaircyclist said:
Disgear wrote: "To me it seems clear that the high altitude program, that was common among the Norwegians in the late 90s and early 2000s, was a perfect cover in hiding blood manipulation/doping. Or was this acclaimed scientist so naïve that the skiers doped without his knowledge during the high altitude camps, and he was happy to see that his program gave stunning results, without any suspicions? I don’t know what is more devastating to a scientist, but after all, maybe it was just naivety from Stray-Gundersen? "
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Sundby who just won the world cup with almost twice the points of number 2, claims to have had around 150 days at high altitude this year, and wants to cut back next year. He actually says that he is not sure of the effects of high altitude training, and says maybe it's his hard training over the last 10 years that has finally given him the results this year. Maybe this will be a good test of how altitude training works, if he suc** next year while training at low altitude.


One thing is sure though - those 150 days at altitude means he is on training camp for around half the year, that surely has an effect also or what ? Is it so unlikely that Norway basicly being one of a few nations with big teams, and lots of top athletes in cross-country, who are well funded, and train together, plays a part also ?

Another Norwegian who believes in high altitude training is Bjørndalen. He just lives at high altitude all year round to be on the safe side. At 40 he lives in a campingcar, and is concentrating 100% on training and sleeping as he says.. plus walking on glowing coals before the season of course.

Sorry, but I am not buying the altitude. First it was much better grinds, skis and wax, now it's altitude. I know the Norwegians have a number of camps, including altitude camps in Val Senales pretty every year, multiple times a year, but it doesn't explain everything. Bjoerndalen has always done this, especially when he was with his italian girlfriend who lived in Toblach. With money and technology, i imagine it can be easy or easier than we think, to manipulate blood levels. I am sure they are using all means necessary to control their levels during the winter. Bjoerndalen has been at the top or near the top for 16-18 years now, he has survived the doping era of the 90's and 2000's and has more WC wins than Roger Federer has tennis titles. I am not sold on him being clean, especially not 10-15 years ago. So too Bjoergen or some of the other top Norwegians. In an endurance sport, where people like Kowalczyk are always suspected to be doping and Bjoergen has had the upper hand in a lot of their encounters and also considering her muscular build and ability to dominate a distance race a day after dominating the sprints with 4 races in one day, it's hard not to speculate. Unfortunately not many will speak out about this, just as not many spoke out against Armstrong's doping and how sad would it be if the top Norwegians DID in fact dope but were covered up by their federation, FIS, WADA, IOC, just like the UCI covered up Armstrong.
 
May 19, 2010
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Discgear said:
One common explanation from the Norwegian Ski Federation to the high blood values that has surrounded Norwegian xc-skiers during the 90s and last decade, has been successful high altitude training programs.

High altitude training gives high blood values. But it only lasts for a few days after you come down to normal altitude again. So altitude training can be the explanation for high values on a test. And it was the explanation Saltin thought was most likely for the skiers (including Sachenbacher-Stehle) who tested too high prior to the Turin games. There had been world cup races in Davos (at 1,560 m) the weekend befor the start of the Turin games, and according to Saltin the leaders of the various teams hadn't been paying enough attention to bringing the skiers down to low altitude before the testing.
 
May 19, 2010
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The only Norwegian I've noticed now giving the high altitude explanation for testing high is Anders Aukland. When asked by SVT why his blood values were high in SLC he said "Jeg vet jeg var mye i høyden før Salt Lake." (I know I was a lot at high altitude prior to Salt Lake). For some other reason SVT's sub texting for it was "Jag vet att de var höga under Salt Lake" (I know they were high during Salt Lake).
 
BullsFan22 said:
Bjoerndalen has been at the top or near the top for 16-18 years now, he has survived the doping era of the 90's and 2000's and has more WC wins than Roger Federer has tennis titles. I am not sold on him being clean, especially not 10-15 years ago. So too Bjoergen or some of the other top Norwegians. In an endurance sport, where people like Kowalczyk are always suspected to be doping and Bjoergen has had the upper hand in a lot of their encounters .

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It's fair enough that somebody has doubts about these two. I still believe in Bjørndalen though, mostly because he makes most athletes look like they do their sport just as a hobby. Truly a one-track mind on that guy.

With Bjørgen, it's easy to see how her bodyshape gets people suspicious. Maybe her bodyshape is the revolution to cross country, just like things changed in swimming, when swimmers started training with weights.

As for beating Kowalczyk, I've seen a documentary about her in training, and how she's at least at times have had horrible training conditions. Which might explain why her technique is not that good, but her endurance is excellent. Not unlikely to me that the most talented skier from a great ski nation, can beat the only "freak of nature" coming from a country with poor cross country traditions. Seemed extremely stubborn and tough in training that one. The usual "she's from the east-bloc she dopes" outcry has been less frequent as she has stayed on top level with no positives for a long time. She also seems like a bit of an *******/diva which could easily lead to somebody talking if there was something to talk about.
 
Armchaircyclist said:
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It's fair enough that somebody has doubts about these two. I still believe in Bjørndalen though, mostly because he makes most athletes look like they do their sport just as a hobby. Truly a one-track mind on that guy.

With Bjørgen, it's easy to see how her bodyshape gets people suspicious. Maybe her bodyshape is the revolution to cross country, just like things changed in swimming, when swimmers started training with weights.

As for beating Kowalczyk, I've seen a documentary about her in training, and how she's at least at times have had horrible training conditions. Which might explain why her technique is not that good, but her endurance is excellent. Not unlikely to me that the most talented skier from a great ski nation, can beat the only "freak of nature" coming from a country with poor cross country traditions. Seemed extremely stubborn and tough in training that one. The usual "she's from the east-bloc she dopes" outcry has been less frequent as she has stayed on top level with no positives for a long time. She also seems like a bit of an *******/diva which could easily lead to somebody talking if there was something to talk about.

Fair enough. I hate to suspect all of these top names, but with so many scandals in pretty much every sport, and doing a bit of research and the SVT documentary, etc, it just has me thinking and not being sold.
 
Northug crashed his Audi A7 drunk the other day.

A common theme has been that the general mindset in Norway against doping is so strong, that it's simply out of question that any prominent skier would try the shortcut.

I know one thing. The general mindset against drinking and driving is absolute and total in both Norway and Sweden.

A person who doesn't hesitate about driving drunk and risking other peoples lifes, probably has a flexible moral concerning the subject of the thread.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/0f6e2dff-1a5d-4481-bf21-3e17df80e8eb

Russian customs detected large amounts of intravenous equipment in the baggage of seven nations at the Sochi Winter Olympics, a doping watchdog report said Tuesday.

Russian security services also found syringes and needles in five athletes' apartments, said the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) report.

At least eight athletes faced disciplinary hearings for banned drugs during the Winter Games in February. Four athletes were excluded from the event before it ended.

The WADA observer mission to the Games said that Russian customs scanned 16,000 bags in the buildup to the Olympics and during the Games.

"Seven named nations were identified as importing 'large amounts of intravenous systems' as well as other medical equipment," said their report.

"On five occasions the Federal Security Services 'detected the use of needles and syringes in the living quarters'" of unnamed delegations, it added.
 
neineinei said:
Tero Similä tested positive for EPO. Both A- and B-sample tested and positive. The test was taken out of competion on March 9.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/ski_association_confirms_tero_simila_doping_findings/7252310

Now can we please suspend Sami Jauhojärvi and Livo Niskanen as well? Such a big rise of form from Niskanen in a matter of weeks, and Jauhojärvi skiing like a god in the team sprint after doing pretty much nothing in the months leading up to the olympics and the month after the olympics.

I haven't seen anything new regarding Mads Drange and the high blood values/potential doping in Norway in the 90's, have they swept this under the rug and totally ignored it/erased it in the people's memory, or what?
 
3 being caught, only women, and only for 2 substances.

What would the real populationsof dopers be on the world cup then?
These were not even grossly outperforming individuals. Like a 40 year old male who gets back in the winning game with the game at the highest level in a long time or ever.
The Russians are part of an underground domestic system. Stehle is part of an underground culture.
 
Cloxxki said:
3 being caught, only women, and only for 2 substances.

What would the real populationsof dopers be on the world cup then?
These were not even grossly outperforming individuals. Like a 40 year old male who gets back in the winning game with the game at the highest level in a long time or ever.
The Russians are part of an underground domestic system. Stehle is part of an underground culture.
At the time of the Russian busts, Karolis Zlautkaskas of Lithuania was also busted, so it wasn't just women. It's just that he said "no point in the B sample. I wanted to qualify for the Olympics, I got tested, I got busted. Sorry everyone, I'll see you in a couple of years".

Now, why has it taken half a year to get to the sentences for these? I guess since the season was kaput for them it doesn't really matter, but even so especially with the Russian ladies with the EPO, it seems pretty clear cut; I guess the whole dietary supplements talk with Evi's positive made it a bit more of a case for wrangling back and forth... anyway, I think realistically her career is over unless she's going to do a nationality switch or something. Even if she gets the ban overturned, she'll be behind in preparation for the season, and she's just a totally different generation to the rest of the German squad, where apart from Franziska Hildebrand they're all a decade younger than her or more (Hildebrand 1987, Gössner 1990, Hinz 1992, Dahlmeier 1993, Knoll 1993, Kummer 1993, Preuß 1994) and as well as having far fewer miles left on the clock and with less to offer as a biathlete than at least four of the above, she's also damaged goods at this point.
 
May 19, 2010
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The biggest catch in skiing last season was no doubt Dürr, who was caught for EPO by IOC.

FIS, on the other hand, are cutting down on their EPO testing.

FIS Out-of-Competition Tests Season 2012/2013 for EPO: 291
FIS Out-of-Competition Tests Season 2013/2014 for EPO: 254

FIS In-Competition Tests Season 2012/2013 for EPO: 205
FIS In-Competition Tests Season 2013/2014 for EPO: 70

Even the highly sucsessful EPO testing of the ski jumpers (irony) had to take a cut, from 25 to 22.

FIS claims:
The FIS Anti-Doping Programme continues to focus on unannounced out-of-competition testing, collecting athlete biological passport (ABP) tests from athletes in the registered testing pool.

Still, the biopassport testing is reduced from the 2012/2013 season to the 2013/2014 season (an Olympic season), and a lot more of the ABP tests were taken in competion this season.

FIS Out-of-Competition Tests Season 2012/2013 for the blood passport: 1426
FIS Out-of-Competition Tests Season 2013/2014 for the blood passport: 954

FIS In-Competition Tests Season 2012/2013 for the blood passport: 14
FIS In-Competition Tests Season 2013/2014 for the blood passport: 352

They also cut out almost all other blood testing this season:

2012/2013: 246 OOC/35 IC
2013/2014: 2 OOC/0 IC


2012/2013 testing statistics
2013/2014 testing statistics
 
10580142_688519541222515_1667736124532837638_n.jpg


Seems like stone griding really helps muscle growth:rolleyes:
 
Aug 5, 2014
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First post, long time reader, fan of cycling and fascinated by doping.

Been reading this thread and watched the documentaries. How can there be any claim, on a cycling forum, that most skiers didn't go cRiisy in the 90s? Norway bts, was once called the last Soviet state by former swedish minister of business, Björn Rosengren. It was said with a bit of tongue in cheek, but still it addressed the point of Norway being stubborn and shut down. Obviously it wasn't said in terms of doping.

Anyway, longer post than I expected. I must however say I am glad to read these many informative and sensible posts from just about everyone except the norwegians.
 
May 16, 2012
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Dr.ugs said:
First post, long time reader, fan of cycling and fascinated by doping.

Been reading this thread and watched the documentaries. How can there be any claim, on a cycling forum, that most skiers didn't go cRiisy in the 90s? Norway bts, was once called the last Soviet state by former swedish minister of business, Björn Rosengren. It was said with a bit of tongue in cheek, but still it addressed the point of Norway being stubborn and shut down. Obviously it wasn't said in terms of doping.

Anyway, longer post than I expected. I must however say I am glad to read these many informative and sensible posts from just about everyone except the norwegians.

The last soviet state comment was said because of a potential merger between Telia and Telenor. Which became politics because norway did not want to privatize Telenor and he got a little bitter because the fusion did not happen. Extremely out of context and misplaced statement to put in this place, but what the hell.

There are no evidence of doping in high level xc-skiing in Norway but there was a clear dominance in the 90s and some guys had some crazy values and was very dominant. As a norwegian I also recall some controversy about norwegians training in pressure chamber tents and cabins. I would not be surprised if there was a blood transfusion or twenty either. Marit is just another example of the general tendency in endurance sports, that it apparently pays off to be asthmatic.

In great danger of being very targeted as biased: you have to remember that no country put so much effort and money into being best at XC-skiing as norway, and you cant compare the amount of talent that goes into XC-skiing in norway to any other country with exception of maybe Russia, so its much harder to compare results to for example cycling
 
All the budget in the world cannot explain supremacy through the EPO years, or a body builder being the second best climber.
At least Johaug is tiny and skinny on skies way longer than herself. That's a logocal reason to expect good ski times. But a body builder winning 30k, even when littered with multi-minute climbs...I can't find a logical explanation for that. In much larger sports I am not aware of it ever happening. Who was the fastest similarly muscled man up Alpe d'Huez? And yeah, Lance was doped to da max, and skinny compared to Marit.
 
Cloxxki said:
All the budget in the world cannot explain supremacy through the EPO years, or a body builder being the second best climber.
At least Johaug is tiny and skinny on skies way longer than herself. That's a logocal reason to expect good ski times. But a body builder winning 30k, even when littered with multi-minute climbs...I can't find a logical explanation for that.

She essentially has a man's body. Which has to be an advantage in a women's field. How that happened, who knows. Could be doping-related, doesn't have to be.
 
Jul 15, 2012
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melkemugg said:
There are no evidence of doping in high level xc-skiing in Norway but there was a clear dominance in the 90s and some guys had some crazy values and was very dominant. As a norwegian I also recall some controversy about norwegians training in pressure chamber tents and cabins. I would not be surprised if there was a blood transfusion or twenty either. Marit is just another example of the general tendency in endurance sports, that it apparently pays off to be asthmatic.

In great danger of being very targeted as biased: you have to remember that no country put so much effort and money into being best at XC-skiing as norway,....
a0b5lw.jpg


http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1087121#post1087121
 
Feb 4, 2012
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Bavarianrider said:
10580142_688519541222515_1667736124532837638_n.jpg


Seems like stone griding really helps muscle growth:rolleyes:
Naturally. Stone grinding skis requires a lot of physical exertion. Burns calories and builds muscles. ;)