I think Northug lost some fans because of the cars crash. At least me. Looks like he's one s*** of human really.
-
The Cycling News forum is still looking to add volunteer moderators with. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/har-gommer-sig-durr-efter-dopingskandalen/ (Swedish)
The Austrian skiing federation has banned Johannes Dürr for life. This is not a doping ban as such, he got the common two year ban from sports, it is just the Austrian skiing federation not wanting to have anything to do with him again.
Johannes Dürr's father in law is Gottlieb Taschler, vice president of the International Biathlon Union. Dürr is living in Antholz in Italy and he's got a job at customs in Innsbruck.
There are speculations that he could try for a come back for the Italians.
He had to pay back the prize money he won in Tour de Ski. If he'd told the usual story, I only did it once, there probably wouldn't be anything FIS could do about it. Northug got his Tour de Ski trophy in the mail.
The Austrian skiing federation has banned Johannes Dürr for life. This is not a doping ban as such, he got the common two year ban from sports, it is just the Austrian skiing federation not wanting to have anything to do with him again.
Johannes Dürr's father in law is Gottlieb Taschler, vice president of the International Biathlon Union. Dürr is living in Antholz in Italy and he's got a job at customs in Innsbruck.
There are speculations that he could try for a come back for the Italians.
He had to pay back the prize money he won in Tour de Ski. If he'd told the usual story, I only did it once, there probably wouldn't be anything FIS could do about it. Northug got his Tour de Ski trophy in the mail.
Evi Sachenbacher-Stehles CAS hearing is to be held 11 November.
http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenerales.asp/4-3-544-1092-4-1-1/5-0-1092-15-1-1/
Some Russian small fish have been provisionally suspended or given two year sanctions during the off season:
Yuryi Gavrilov (Cross country)
Viacheslav Baranunkin (Biathlon)
Valentin Pehterev and Andrey Dybasov (Biathlon)
Two more provisional suspensions are listed here, Nikita Mashkin and Arina Kalinina
http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenerales.asp/4-3-544-1092-4-1-1/5-0-1092-15-1-1/
Some Russian small fish have been provisionally suspended or given two year sanctions during the off season:
Yuryi Gavrilov (Cross country)
Viacheslav Baranunkin (Biathlon)
Valentin Pehterev and Andrey Dybasov (Biathlon)
Two more provisional suspensions are listed here, Nikita Mashkin and Arina Kalinina
First post. Actually, first post ever on any forum. Let me first say that I am a Norwegian, Associate Professor at a university - not medicine or physiology, but in the social sciences. Specializing in international relations. A couple of months ago, I decided to focus part of my research on nationalism/patriotism. As a side project, I have become interested in the doping question, in particular how it relates to Norwegian skiers in the 1990s. I have read all posts in this forum with great interest, and I have learned a hell of a lot. Especially, I thank you all for: (a) giving me extremly insightful knowledge/hypotheses of various kinds; (b) for providing me with a lot of sources (e.g., news articles) to help me kick-start this whole endavor; and (c) providing links (as well as explanations) to medical-technical issues. I very, very much appreciate this, and I hope this thread will continue.
If the thread lives on, I think I can add some additional value. In the medium or long term, my objective is to assist in doing a small portion of what the Norwegian media isn't, namely to get hold on and to publusg, at the very least, some systematic circumstantial evidence of what was really going on in the 1990s (and, probably or at least possibly, in later years as well).Many of my own thoughts and reflections are reflected by you guys as well, which is reassuring and helpful. "Hard" evidence (in the sense of being enough to get a conviction in court) is virtually impossible to come by. The circumstantial evidence that something was going on in Norway, on the other hand, fairly substantial. "Har evidence", if it ever appears, will either consist of confessions, or of the publication of blood values (from the competitive time of year) from earlier times, the latter of which, since Pechstein's 2009 case, now counts as evidence in this regard. Confessions are likely to appear sooner or later, the release of relevant blood values not so.
In any case, what you guys are doing is focusing on circumstantial evidence. By necessity. And I urge you to continue to do so, because it is vital. And it is vital irrespective of it leading to concusions of Norwegians being doped or not doped. But this evidence is not really systematized yet (publicly, at least), and - as a first cut - that will be my mission in the months ahead. The media won't really touch this stuff, for reasons which you have already made clear throughout the post (and the reasons are also depicted in the Finnish doculentary "When Heroes Lie"). So my objective is really to do my bit on this topic. And luckily, I'm paid to do so. It will still be sort of a part-time project for me, but I hope I can help. In any case, I will post some stuff soon, and, as I said before, I hope the thread lives on. Cheers, and thanks again for a wonderfully enlightning forum!
If the thread lives on, I think I can add some additional value. In the medium or long term, my objective is to assist in doing a small portion of what the Norwegian media isn't, namely to get hold on and to publusg, at the very least, some systematic circumstantial evidence of what was really going on in the 1990s (and, probably or at least possibly, in later years as well).Many of my own thoughts and reflections are reflected by you guys as well, which is reassuring and helpful. "Hard" evidence (in the sense of being enough to get a conviction in court) is virtually impossible to come by. The circumstantial evidence that something was going on in Norway, on the other hand, fairly substantial. "Har evidence", if it ever appears, will either consist of confessions, or of the publication of blood values (from the competitive time of year) from earlier times, the latter of which, since Pechstein's 2009 case, now counts as evidence in this regard. Confessions are likely to appear sooner or later, the release of relevant blood values not so.
In any case, what you guys are doing is focusing on circumstantial evidence. By necessity. And I urge you to continue to do so, because it is vital. And it is vital irrespective of it leading to concusions of Norwegians being doped or not doped. But this evidence is not really systematized yet (publicly, at least), and - as a first cut - that will be my mission in the months ahead. The media won't really touch this stuff, for reasons which you have already made clear throughout the post (and the reasons are also depicted in the Finnish doculentary "When Heroes Lie"). So my objective is really to do my bit on this topic. And luckily, I'm paid to do so. It will still be sort of a part-time project for me, but I hope I can help. In any case, I will post some stuff soon, and, as I said before, I hope the thread lives on. Cheers, and thanks again for a wonderfully enlightning forum!
OK, second post, kind of innocuous, but nonetheless... The relatively non-prominent Norwegian female skier, Maj Helen Svorkmo, failed to participate in the December 1998 WC race in Toblach, due to her blood values. http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/1998/12/13/147592.html
Three separate values appeared: 16.7, 16.8, and 16.9. Of course, for a female, these values were really high and would, today, even bring her up close to the limit of male skiers. Of particular interest, however, was the reactions from herself and the Norwegian Federation in the hours after the screening tests were performed. Firstly, from May Helen herself: "I know that I normally have high values". Which she doesn't, and we know that because of an earlier news piece that has often been cited here: http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html
May Helens "normal" value is 14.3.
More tellingly was the reaction from the sporting director of NSF (Norwegian Skiing Federation), Inge Andersen: "We choose to be open about this to avoid there being any rumors or speculations. The leaders and athletes of other nations observed that she went to the test and that she threafter didn't start."
The trouble is that, originally, the official story from NSF was that Svorkmo failed to start in the race due to a sore throat. http://www.vg.no/sport/sorkmo-nektet-start-som-den-foerste/a/39047/ Andersen, after a day or so, said he was sorry for the misinformation, but that it was due to him and NSF trying to protect the athlete in question.
The point is basically about the "openness" and "integrity" and "honesty" of the Federation. Just one example, out of many. This is problematic.
Tina Bay (Norway) and Jirina Taranenko-Terelia (Ukraine) also failed to make the Toblach race. Illness was the explanation for the former.
In any case, 16.9 is sky-high. The explanation given by Norways team doctor, Arne Vilberg, was that she had, prior to Toblach, spent five nights in an altitude tent/house http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/1998/12/14/147781.html
The latter explanation is rendered invalid by all known scientific results. In any case, 16.9 (avg. over three tests: 16.8) is sky-high.
Cheers
Three separate values appeared: 16.7, 16.8, and 16.9. Of course, for a female, these values were really high and would, today, even bring her up close to the limit of male skiers. Of particular interest, however, was the reactions from herself and the Norwegian Federation in the hours after the screening tests were performed. Firstly, from May Helen herself: "I know that I normally have high values". Which she doesn't, and we know that because of an earlier news piece that has often been cited here: http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html
May Helens "normal" value is 14.3.
More tellingly was the reaction from the sporting director of NSF (Norwegian Skiing Federation), Inge Andersen: "We choose to be open about this to avoid there being any rumors or speculations. The leaders and athletes of other nations observed that she went to the test and that she threafter didn't start."
The trouble is that, originally, the official story from NSF was that Svorkmo failed to start in the race due to a sore throat. http://www.vg.no/sport/sorkmo-nektet-start-som-den-foerste/a/39047/ Andersen, after a day or so, said he was sorry for the misinformation, but that it was due to him and NSF trying to protect the athlete in question.
The point is basically about the "openness" and "integrity" and "honesty" of the Federation. Just one example, out of many. This is problematic.
Tina Bay (Norway) and Jirina Taranenko-Terelia (Ukraine) also failed to make the Toblach race. Illness was the explanation for the former.
In any case, 16.9 is sky-high. The explanation given by Norways team doctor, Arne Vilberg, was that she had, prior to Toblach, spent five nights in an altitude tent/house http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/1998/12/14/147781.html
The latter explanation is rendered invalid by all known scientific results. In any case, 16.9 (avg. over three tests: 16.8) is sky-high.
Cheers
Welcome to the forum, very interesting post.
To me that seems like clear evidence of blood manipulation, and no valid excuse can be made.
I think Skjeldal had similar jumps in his blood values (?) and when called out by Saltin he made some incredibly pathetic excuse that smelled bs to anyone that isnt norwegian.
There were also some other norwegians that went above the limit and prevented from starting races but forgot who it was.
Makes you wonder what was going on in the early/mid 90s when they didnt have to worry about tests..
To me that seems like clear evidence of blood manipulation, and no valid excuse can be made.
I think Skjeldal had similar jumps in his blood values (?) and when called out by Saltin he made some incredibly pathetic excuse that smelled bs to anyone that isnt norwegian.
There were also some other norwegians that went above the limit and prevented from starting races but forgot who it was.
Makes you wonder what was going on in the early/mid 90s when they didnt have to worry about tests..
I don't remeber if this has been posted before on this forum, or if I read it on a similar Swedish forum. Anyway, in May 2013 the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten interviewed a small handful of leaders/doctors/athletes about what they knew about EPO in 1994. http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/-207876_1.snd Inggard Lereim (you know, the responsible medic at '94, Norwegian team doctor, and long a prominent member - and leader - of FIS's medical committee). was one of those who were asked about this (actually, according to the article, he was asked about his knowledge of EPO in the 1990s, but it's fair to surmise that the journalist meant 1994 specifically).
Lereim's reply was, to be honest quite astonishing. A blatant lie: "We had good knowledge about EPO as a drug meant for patients, but that it was used for cheating, [this knowledge] came a bit later. We always have to spend some time before we can fathom that people are so dishonest that they utilize a life-saving druf for cheating."
A blatant lie. The question is rather: Why did he lie about this? A lie is what it is. Lereim is hugely respected sport physician, with all the knowledge in the world about EPO. Probably as early as in the late 1980s, he knew. But why lie in an inncuous interview?
Well, what Lereim did say, it sounds so - well, "Norwegian", in a way. Innocent. "Scandinavian".
It was an obvious lie, so I felt I had to spend a few minutes exposing it. 1994 was pre-Internet, but as a university employee I do have access to older stuff (much of which is digitilized). An interview by VG 26th of January 1994 was revealing. The interview was basically about EPO, with Lereim stating (I'm paraphrasing now) that he was sorry that EPO use couldn't be discovered during the Olympics (allegedly due to judicial problems), and that he was an impatient man who would like that they were able to test for it.
Well, I can translate the whole thing if someone requests it, but my main poitn was the thing about Lereim's lying.
I do not know why he lied. But I can speculate, which I do. And in sum, these speculations - based on numerous contradictions, questionable explanations, high blood values at single races, etc. - well, they amount to circumstantial evidence that point to the conclusion that there's a lot of things that went on that we haven't gotten information on.
But why lie?
Lereim's reply was, to be honest quite astonishing. A blatant lie: "We had good knowledge about EPO as a drug meant for patients, but that it was used for cheating, [this knowledge] came a bit later. We always have to spend some time before we can fathom that people are so dishonest that they utilize a life-saving druf for cheating."
A blatant lie. The question is rather: Why did he lie about this? A lie is what it is. Lereim is hugely respected sport physician, with all the knowledge in the world about EPO. Probably as early as in the late 1980s, he knew. But why lie in an inncuous interview?
Well, what Lereim did say, it sounds so - well, "Norwegian", in a way. Innocent. "Scandinavian".
It was an obvious lie, so I felt I had to spend a few minutes exposing it. 1994 was pre-Internet, but as a university employee I do have access to older stuff (much of which is digitilized). An interview by VG 26th of January 1994 was revealing. The interview was basically about EPO, with Lereim stating (I'm paraphrasing now) that he was sorry that EPO use couldn't be discovered during the Olympics (allegedly due to judicial problems), and that he was an impatient man who would like that they were able to test for it.
Well, I can translate the whole thing if someone requests it, but my main poitn was the thing about Lereim's lying.
I do not know why he lied. But I can speculate, which I do. And in sum, these speculations - based on numerous contradictions, questionable explanations, high blood values at single races, etc. - well, they amount to circumstantial evidence that point to the conclusion that there's a lot of things that went on that we haven't gotten information on.
But why lie?
Hi Kajsen.
That is a very interesting post. The side of doping you will be researching is the one that interests me and many others on here (that is the social side of doping, the lies etc, and not the scientific side of taking tests and concluding that if a scientist working for Wada says a doping substance has not been detected that must mean the athlete was clean), albeit my interest is more in cycling and mabe summer sports rather than witner ones but there is a massive overlap.
Out of interest how was it that you stumbled accross this forum.
Its also good to know that people are still looking into doping in the early 90's as it seems to me that in most sports, those who did so have succesfully gotten away with it (like Indurain) as the motivation to look into sporting results from 4 or 5 (sporting) generations ago has evaporated.
Anyway I will be very interested in the information and conclusions you find. Your posts thus far have been very interesting. I have never heard of the documentary " when Heroes lie", but judging from the title and brief synopsis I just read I have to see it and wish more people in the mainstream media here were aware of it, or at least the basic comments that sports stars are capable of lying, since at the moment the popular opinion is that anyone who won a medal of any sort for their country must be honest to the bone.
That is a very interesting post. The side of doping you will be researching is the one that interests me and many others on here (that is the social side of doping, the lies etc, and not the scientific side of taking tests and concluding that if a scientist working for Wada says a doping substance has not been detected that must mean the athlete was clean), albeit my interest is more in cycling and mabe summer sports rather than witner ones but there is a massive overlap.
Out of interest how was it that you stumbled accross this forum.
Its also good to know that people are still looking into doping in the early 90's as it seems to me that in most sports, those who did so have succesfully gotten away with it (like Indurain) as the motivation to look into sporting results from 4 or 5 (sporting) generations ago has evaporated.
Anyway I will be very interested in the information and conclusions you find. Your posts thus far have been very interesting. I have never heard of the documentary " when Heroes lie", but judging from the title and brief synopsis I just read I have to see it and wish more people in the mainstream media here were aware of it, or at least the basic comments that sports stars are capable of lying, since at the moment the popular opinion is that anyone who won a medal of any sort for their country must be honest to the bone.
finnjävel said:Hi,
First of all sorry for a very long first post!
Just finished reading the whole thread, really enjoyed the juicy conversation! I'll probably mostly be only observing also in the future, but just wanted to urge the "clinicians" to keep up the good work! It's especially cool to get summaries of what's going on in norwegian media, since that language is not exactly my strength...
But maybe also a small contribution from my side, although this mostly just gives "historical perspective" and might already be well-known for the majority. The finnish broadcasting union YLE has some interesting old archive footage related to finnish doping starting from the 40's.
First, there are excerpts from an interview (from 1988, http://yle.fi/elavaarkisto/artikkel...ngilla_jo_1940-luvulla_82483.html#media=82477) with August Kiuru, an olympic and wc medalist xc-skier from 40's and 50's. He openly discusses the use of metamphetamine which was, according to him, very standard and commonplace in the finnish team during his active times. Also the athletes did not always know whether they were served a drink or "the drink" during the
competition before drinking it. He says once he took accidentally a double doze of pervitin since he did not know the drink contained it, and blacked out in the forest after skiing like a madman for a while only to wake up a couple of hours later from the snow! He also says he is sure others (nor,swe) had to also be using, since they were racing evenly against the doped finns. Of course none of that was forbidden by the rules during that time.
Kiuru also worked in the support team of finnish xc-team in wc's and olympics between 1966 and 2005. You get the feeling that using stimulants was very widespread still during the 70's. He describes how in Sapporo 1972 he was standing at the 40km mark of the 50km race when Kalevi Oikarinen who was tied at the second place run by and asked if he has "the drink". When Kiuru said he doesn't have anything, Oikarinen just outright quit the race because he though he could not compete with the norwegians without pervitin!
Kiuru said that he of course had the stuff with him but that the coaches had warned not to administer it (unlike in e.g. Vysoké Tatry where he did give it to Oikarinen who won gold), because there were supposed to be tests. But "the norwegians" (his words) had fooled the finns and cancelled the supposed tests during the night, so actually no tests ever occurred
dope or not to dope at least in 40's to 70's finnish xc seemed to come from the coaching staff of the national team.
People here who understand finnish might also be interested in this talk show from 1985 (http://yle.fi/elavaarkisto/artikkel...n_paljastusten_jalkeen_82383.html#media=82394) where the use of testosterone, growth hormone and blood transfusions among finnish top athletes in 70's and 80's is discussed. This is actually the show that drove Aki Karvonen to confess he had used blood transfusions before WC's in Seefeld (and also earlier as it later turned out). Also other sports are discussed, but roughly third of the show deals with blood transfusions in xc-skiing.
There is an interesting interview at the end with then still active finnish runner Ari Paunonen, who thinks that almost every top athlete worldwide is doping (at the time), though it is not explicitly clear if he refers to only distance running. It is not surprising that the guy is cynic about it, since he was maybe the greatest junior talent in finnish distance running ever, setting for example in 1977 the junior WR at 3000m that lasted for 20 years and beating for example Sebastian Coe at the world junior championships at the age of 17 (Coe was 19). Nonetheless, he never was never nearly as competitive as an adult and seems to attribute that to widespread doping.
And oh, by the way, my source revealed the key to the norwegian succes during the 90's in xc-skiing
Great post and great info.
"The Skeptic", thanks for welcoming me. I am serious about this business now, and, as I have hinted to before, it has in part to do with the amount of circumstantial evidence that has appeared over the last couple of years. As you rightly point out, Kristen Skjeldal is part of this. As yet, I haven't organized my material, so I'll have to come back to a couple of things about him later.
But I would like to revisit the interview I referred to above: http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/Fikk-ikke-lov-til-a-sikre-dopingbevis-i-94-OL-207876_1.snd
This is not about XC skiing specifically, but rather about Johan Olav Koss (speed skater and triple gold medalist in Lillehammer, as you all know). Same interview, still a lie. Asked about his knowledge of EPO, Koss answered: "During the Olympics at Lillehammer I hadn't even heard about EPO".
A blatant lie, I surmised. But again I had to visit the newspaer articles from that time. And there was one from June 23 1993 (Aftenposten). Apart from the section where the article exhibits how Koss and Odne Søndrål were wuite thrilled to be invited and able to join Francesco Moser (Franceso Conconi's EPO-fille record-breaking cycling student) on the indoor cycling track in Hamar), the article refers to the invitation that our Norwegian speed skaters received for a lecture that same evening by Conconi. In hindsight, Koss's comments referring to the lecture are quite funny (though one shouldn't place too much weight on them, because he cannot possibly have meant to put them forward in such a blatant way): "It remains to be seen if he reveals all of his secrets, but I look forward to it. There's surely things we can pick up."
The article also stated that Conconi was renowned for getting his athletes in top shape for specific days. Koss and Søndrål's coach, Hans Trygve Kristiansen, added they, as well, were quite good in reaching top shape for events.
The coach of Norway's men skiing team, Inge Bråthen, was also invited to Cononi's lecture.
Well, I forgot to mention that Conconi's evening lecture was about doping of atheletes; with special reference to conclusions made by Conconi as regards the effects of EPO. In Norwegian (VG, 28. Dec. 1999; not on the Internet):
In Norwegian: Conconis foredrag/symposium var på Lillehammer 29-31 august 1993, og dreide seg om doping i idretten: Det som paradoksalt nok vakte statsadvokatens oppmerksomhet, var undersøkelser om EPO som Conconi selv offentliggjorde i 1993. Konklusjonene av denne undersøkelsen ble lagt fram på det andre internasjonale symposium om doping i idretten, som fant sted på Lillehammer 29. 31. august 1993.
Again: Why lie?
But I would like to revisit the interview I referred to above: http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/Fikk-ikke-lov-til-a-sikre-dopingbevis-i-94-OL-207876_1.snd
This is not about XC skiing specifically, but rather about Johan Olav Koss (speed skater and triple gold medalist in Lillehammer, as you all know). Same interview, still a lie. Asked about his knowledge of EPO, Koss answered: "During the Olympics at Lillehammer I hadn't even heard about EPO".
A blatant lie, I surmised. But again I had to visit the newspaer articles from that time. And there was one from June 23 1993 (Aftenposten). Apart from the section where the article exhibits how Koss and Odne Søndrål were wuite thrilled to be invited and able to join Francesco Moser (Franceso Conconi's EPO-fille record-breaking cycling student) on the indoor cycling track in Hamar), the article refers to the invitation that our Norwegian speed skaters received for a lecture that same evening by Conconi. In hindsight, Koss's comments referring to the lecture are quite funny (though one shouldn't place too much weight on them, because he cannot possibly have meant to put them forward in such a blatant way): "It remains to be seen if he reveals all of his secrets, but I look forward to it. There's surely things we can pick up."
The article also stated that Conconi was renowned for getting his athletes in top shape for specific days. Koss and Søndrål's coach, Hans Trygve Kristiansen, added they, as well, were quite good in reaching top shape for events.
The coach of Norway's men skiing team, Inge Bråthen, was also invited to Cononi's lecture.
Well, I forgot to mention that Conconi's evening lecture was about doping of atheletes; with special reference to conclusions made by Conconi as regards the effects of EPO. In Norwegian (VG, 28. Dec. 1999; not on the Internet):
In Norwegian: Conconis foredrag/symposium var på Lillehammer 29-31 august 1993, og dreide seg om doping i idretten: Det som paradoksalt nok vakte statsadvokatens oppmerksomhet, var undersøkelser om EPO som Conconi selv offentliggjorde i 1993. Konklusjonene av denne undersøkelsen ble lagt fram på det andre internasjonale symposium om doping i idretten, som fant sted på Lillehammer 29. 31. august 1993.
Again: Why lie?
Quick note, as regard my post above: I see now that I have mixed the dates of Conio's lecture. Koss was attending a lecture in June - the verified EPO-focused one was in late August the same year. Which means I don't have solid ground for claiming that Koss was lectured about EPO. It is likely he was, but I cannot as yet know. I still think he lied, though...
Kajsen said:
Well, since Koss was a medical student it seems incredible that he would have no knowledge of EPO..
Thanks, The Hitch! The documentary "When Heroes Lie" is a Finnish one, made in the wake of the 2001 scandal where basically all of the top Finnish skiers were exposed as dopers: http://tv.nrk.no/program/KOID28009411/naar-heltene-lyver
It's a two-hour documentary, focused on Finland. A great watch. It also contains ca. two minutes about Norway, which created - back in 2012 - an enormous uproar among the media and the NSF (Skiing Fed.). I won't post any links to the uproar now, but the reactions were like after Blodracet (the two Swedish documentaries). In any case, one of the two minutes revolved around the statements of a source that supposedly had worked in a key position for NSF in Norway. He stated that, if people were to get hold of the truth, there wouldn't be any (skiing) heroes in Norway, only losers.
But the source did not dare to go public. He (or she, for that matter) wanted to remain anonymous. Understandably (if the source was real, that is), because in Norway, you will be in serious danger of being killed if you come forward with that kind of information.
Anyway, the head of the Norwegian state-owned broadcaster, NRK, felt (obviously) the need to check out the source before the documentary was broadcast in Norway. He found that the source was relevant, and the source confirmed that he had made these exact comments.
Sorry for not providing a link now, but my files are currently a mess.
About how I stumbled upon this forum: Well, I really don't know. Just some semi-random googling, I guess. A couple of weeks ago. But in all honesty, collectively, you guys bring a hell of a lot of extremly valuable information and hypotheses and links. Much more so than the Norwegian media. But that Norway's media don't do this, well that is understandable. I might retur to the latter point later.
Cheers!
It's a two-hour documentary, focused on Finland. A great watch. It also contains ca. two minutes about Norway, which created - back in 2012 - an enormous uproar among the media and the NSF (Skiing Fed.). I won't post any links to the uproar now, but the reactions were like after Blodracet (the two Swedish documentaries). In any case, one of the two minutes revolved around the statements of a source that supposedly had worked in a key position for NSF in Norway. He stated that, if people were to get hold of the truth, there wouldn't be any (skiing) heroes in Norway, only losers.
But the source did not dare to go public. He (or she, for that matter) wanted to remain anonymous. Understandably (if the source was real, that is), because in Norway, you will be in serious danger of being killed if you come forward with that kind of information.
Anyway, the head of the Norwegian state-owned broadcaster, NRK, felt (obviously) the need to check out the source before the documentary was broadcast in Norway. He found that the source was relevant, and the source confirmed that he had made these exact comments.
Sorry for not providing a link now, but my files are currently a mess.
About how I stumbled upon this forum: Well, I really don't know. Just some semi-random googling, I guess. A couple of weeks ago. But in all honesty, collectively, you guys bring a hell of a lot of extremly valuable information and hypotheses and links. Much more so than the Norwegian media. But that Norway's media don't do this, well that is understandable. I might retur to the latter point later.
Cheers!
Just a quick one regarding the anonymous source from the Finnish documentary. From a Swedish forum I was reading about XC doping, I was reminded about the late-1980s case of Odd Lindberg. He once reported on the Norwegian sale-hunting industry, claiming (and filming) the (supposedly) inhumane methods of seal hunting. Long story short, he had to move to Sweden, where he stayed under police protection for a long, long time. It's the way it is... We like our XC skiers, and we like to hunt...
the skeptic, about Koss. To be honest, I think I will mostly focus on XC, but we Norwegians cannot fully avoid Koss on this topic. As you rightly point out, he was a med student at the time (and has since completed his med degree).
According to this 2012 interview: Koss (and other Norwegian skaters) got vitamins through salad and pills - never injections. As a med student at the time (1994, I guess), he had had physics, chemistr, and latin (he flunked the latter course, he says, laughing). He adds that speed skating was a tiny sport with very little money; they could not pay any doctors. "Seriously, if EPO was available, we didn't know about it.We heard some things about it in 1992, but that was something we under no circumstance would take any part in" [Norwegian: " men da som noe vi absolutt ikke kom til å være i nærheten av".
And then, responding to a question, he added something about Conconi - whom he "had never met and didn't know who was". Apparently, they trained at Hamar at the same time out of coincidence (contradicting the article I referred to above; the meetiong between Conconi/Moser and Koss/Søndrål was pre-planned by Norwegian cyclist Dag-Erik Pedersen).
The trouble (or, one significant part of the trouble) is that these people are lying. For some reason...
According to this 2012 interview: Koss (and other Norwegian skaters) got vitamins through salad and pills - never injections. As a med student at the time (1994, I guess), he had had physics, chemistr, and latin (he flunked the latter course, he says, laughing). He adds that speed skating was a tiny sport with very little money; they could not pay any doctors. "Seriously, if EPO was available, we didn't know about it.We heard some things about it in 1992, but that was something we under no circumstance would take any part in" [Norwegian: " men da som noe vi absolutt ikke kom til å være i nærheten av".
And then, responding to a question, he added something about Conconi - whom he "had never met and didn't know who was". Apparently, they trained at Hamar at the same time out of coincidence (contradicting the article I referred to above; the meetiong between Conconi/Moser and Koss/Søndrål was pre-planned by Norwegian cyclist Dag-Erik Pedersen).
The trouble (or, one significant part of the trouble) is that these people are lying. For some reason...
Well, what the heck, before I retire for the evening. You know the Hemocue, of course, which is the key "evidence" for the defense of Norwegian skiers (notably, Bjørn Dæhlie and his 17.5 from '95). Ola Rønsen was the key spokesman of our Federation on these matters, slaughtering the precision of the Hemocue, which was used by FIS throughout the '90s.
In 1998, regarding Sture Sivertsen's quite low blood values at a WC race, Rønsen pointed to several reasons for this result (13.3), including that Sture had drunk a lot of water before the test, and that the measuring device's margin of error was one percent.
One percent. It could be a misquote of course. But the Hemocue-bashing of late is really not looking good in any case. Oh, and here's the story. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/miss-paa-miss-for-sture/a/6487/
There's a couple of other funny things in that article, but I'll save them for later...
In 1998, regarding Sture Sivertsen's quite low blood values at a WC race, Rønsen pointed to several reasons for this result (13.3), including that Sture had drunk a lot of water before the test, and that the measuring device's margin of error was one percent.
One percent. It could be a misquote of course. But the Hemocue-bashing of late is really not looking good in any case. Oh, and here's the story. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/miss-paa-miss-for-sture/a/6487/
There's a couple of other funny things in that article, but I'll save them for later...
It's the lying! Why? After SVT's documentary "Blodracet" in 2013, the sporting director of Norway's XC skiers, Åge Skinstad, was interviewed by VG. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/doping/skinstad-skal-legge-fram-alt/a/10101143/ He said something about high values being normal (particularly for him and his skiing son, Petter), and then he was asked if he kned about Norwegian skiers that had been banned from starting races due to the blood values.
His answer was that "there is one known case, May-Helen Svorkmo". She had high values, but she came right from altitude training [not that it matters, but the article I referred to a few posts ago said articifial altitude house, for five days only]. There qwas never any suspicion about doping being directed against her".
Well, Svorkmo's 16.9 is one thing (covered in post above). Skinstad's memory, though, has faded since 2010 (http://www.tv2.no/a/3377088 (http://www.tv2.no/a/3377088
Back then, when asked the same question, he did remember Tore Ruud Hofstad and Frode Estil, in addition to Svorkmo.
This is not by any means a big story. It's just more lying. Or spinning the truth, at least. Or forgetting things that are convenient to forget. NSF's (Norway's Ski Fed) talks at length about openness, nothing to hide, honesty, integrity, culture, free speech, and all that.
The evidence points in the other direction, however. It might not be a problem about doping (on the other hand, it might), but at the very least NSF as an organization is portraying an image of itself that is far, far removed from the rhetoric these same people use.
His answer was that "there is one known case, May-Helen Svorkmo". She had high values, but she came right from altitude training [not that it matters, but the article I referred to a few posts ago said articifial altitude house, for five days only]. There qwas never any suspicion about doping being directed against her".
Well, Svorkmo's 16.9 is one thing (covered in post above). Skinstad's memory, though, has faded since 2010 (http://www.tv2.no/a/3377088 (http://www.tv2.no/a/3377088
Back then, when asked the same question, he did remember Tore Ruud Hofstad and Frode Estil, in addition to Svorkmo.
This is not by any means a big story. It's just more lying. Or spinning the truth, at least. Or forgetting things that are convenient to forget. NSF's (Norway's Ski Fed) talks at length about openness, nothing to hide, honesty, integrity, culture, free speech, and all that.
The evidence points in the other direction, however. It might not be a problem about doping (on the other hand, it might), but at the very least NSF as an organization is portraying an image of itself that is far, far removed from the rhetoric these same people use.
In reference to my post above somewhere, about Inggard Lereim lying about not knowing about EPO in 1994, this book states otherwise (along with the article I referred to in that earlier post): http://books.google.no/books?id=wi2d4YyLh3wC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=%22francesco+conconi%22+%22inggard+lereim%22&source=bl&ots=pbiWAcVTXP&sig=6tQFlGV7NmOnpOEIrf5lMm4MDEE&hl=no&sa=X&ei=_6dKVLLWG8TmyQOk34LICg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22francesco%20conconi%22%20%22inggard%20lereim%22&f=false
It says that "In February 1994, the head of doping controls at the Lillehammer Winter Olympics Games, professor Inggard Lereim, announced without further comment that Francesco Conconi was engaged in research on the detection of erythropoietin".
Why lie, Inggard?
It says that "In February 1994, the head of doping controls at the Lillehammer Winter Olympics Games, professor Inggard Lereim, announced without further comment that Francesco Conconi was engaged in research on the detection of erythropoietin".
Why lie, Inggard?
About values and Norwegian skiers/leaders. Our current coach for the XC males is Trond Nystad. In 2006 he was responsible for the U.S. female team. During the Torino Olympics, Kikkan Randall (having previously had surgery for massive blood clots), received a five-days suspension due to her blood values. The latter part of the story reads like this:
"Two cross-country skiers from the 2002 Olympics arrived in Utah with high hemoglobin levels, and both were found to have taken darbepoetin. Russia's Larissa Lazutina and Johann Muehlegg of Spain were both stripped of gold medals. "I felt it was pretty unfair, the fact that it's for the athletes' health, to be compared to (tainted) athletes from the past," Randall said. Her coach, Trond Nystad, agreed. "I think it was a bigger thing in the media than it was for us," he said. "The funny thing is that the negative attention came from the U.S. where I think journalists are uneducated on the issue. In Europe they know this isn't a big deal."
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/distancing-skiers-happy-escape-taint-article-1.646987
Here, too, it's not necessarily a big deal (and I do not know Kikkan's normal values), and it doesn't prove anything at all. But Nystad's comments just reflect something that is not at all in synch with the way NSF and our skiers like to present themselves.
"Two cross-country skiers from the 2002 Olympics arrived in Utah with high hemoglobin levels, and both were found to have taken darbepoetin. Russia's Larissa Lazutina and Johann Muehlegg of Spain were both stripped of gold medals. "I felt it was pretty unfair, the fact that it's for the athletes' health, to be compared to (tainted) athletes from the past," Randall said. Her coach, Trond Nystad, agreed. "I think it was a bigger thing in the media than it was for us," he said. "The funny thing is that the negative attention came from the U.S. where I think journalists are uneducated on the issue. In Europe they know this isn't a big deal."
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/distancing-skiers-happy-escape-taint-article-1.646987
Here, too, it's not necessarily a big deal (and I do not know Kikkan's normal values), and it doesn't prove anything at all. But Nystad's comments just reflect something that is not at all in synch with the way NSF and our skiers like to present themselves.
This was new to me, and pretty damning (I'm usually careful when it comes to using such words): http://www.vg.no/sport/bjonviken-gikk-med-ulovlig-blodverdi/a/42237/
According to this 1999 article, Tore Bjonviken was allowed to race in Davos before X-mas 1998 after measuring 18.6. (The limit at the time was 18.5, now it is 17.0.) Arne Vilberg, Norways doctor, was the man responsbile for the measurement. This was the same race in which female May Helen Svorkmo (earlier article) was measured at 16.9.
Those numbers are pretty much insane. (As stated earlier, Tina Bay of NOrway had to pull out before the race, supposedly because she was ill).
Astonishnly, Vilberg, when interviewed, states that the finger test (Hemocue, I suppose) on average is 0.8 above venal tests (is "venal" the right word?). "Therefore we were sure that Bjonviken was on the right side of the limit", Vilberg tells the newspaper.
Seriosuly, "sure that... right side of..." 18.5 is the limit - and the apparent goal is to get racers as close to that as possible! Today the limit is 17.0!
I found that pice of news a few minutes ago. It doesn't end there, though. The article says that "both him [i.e. Bjonviken] and Sorkmo are among the racers with a naturally high level of hemoglobin".
According to the now-famous 2001 article http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html
... it isn't so. Normal values: Svorkmo: 14.3; Bjonviken: 16.0
18.6. "we were sure that Bjonviken was on the right side of the limit"
I'm usually quite level-headed, but this is...
According to this 1999 article, Tore Bjonviken was allowed to race in Davos before X-mas 1998 after measuring 18.6. (The limit at the time was 18.5, now it is 17.0.) Arne Vilberg, Norways doctor, was the man responsbile for the measurement. This was the same race in which female May Helen Svorkmo (earlier article) was measured at 16.9.
Those numbers are pretty much insane. (As stated earlier, Tina Bay of NOrway had to pull out before the race, supposedly because she was ill).
Astonishnly, Vilberg, when interviewed, states that the finger test (Hemocue, I suppose) on average is 0.8 above venal tests (is "venal" the right word?). "Therefore we were sure that Bjonviken was on the right side of the limit", Vilberg tells the newspaper.
Seriosuly, "sure that... right side of..." 18.5 is the limit - and the apparent goal is to get racers as close to that as possible! Today the limit is 17.0!
I found that pice of news a few minutes ago. It doesn't end there, though. The article says that "both him [i.e. Bjonviken] and Sorkmo are among the racers with a naturally high level of hemoglobin".
According to the now-famous 2001 article http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html
... it isn't so. Normal values: Svorkmo: 14.3; Bjonviken: 16.0
18.6. "we were sure that Bjonviken was on the right side of the limit"
I'm usually quite level-headed, but this is...
... Regarding the last post, I didn't even get to the bottom of the article:
"De nasjonale skiforbundene har ingen forpliktelse til å underrette FIS om egne testresultater. Inggard Lereim i FIS' medisinske komite har ingen ting å utsette på sine landsmenns opptreden i denne saken."
It says that: "National federations have no obligation to inform FIS about their own test results. Inggard Lereim of FIS's Medical Committee has no critical remarks [sorry for the translation: "ingenting å utsette...] with regards to his countrymen's actions in this matter."
I'm a little bit sad now, actually
"De nasjonale skiforbundene har ingen forpliktelse til å underrette FIS om egne testresultater. Inggard Lereim i FIS' medisinske komite har ingen ting å utsette på sine landsmenns opptreden i denne saken."
It says that: "National federations have no obligation to inform FIS about their own test results. Inggard Lereim of FIS's Medical Committee has no critical remarks [sorry for the translation: "ingenting å utsette...] with regards to his countrymen's actions in this matter."
I'm a little bit sad now, actually
Kajsen said:
Somewhere (Aftenposten archive I think) I read that NSF had tested Sorkmo prior to the official testing, and then the hemoglobin level had been under the limit. But the measuring device (Hemocue I suppose) was said to have failed and given wrong numbers. At the time the skiers were using the altitude house in Trysil, and NSF seems to have been monitoring the hemoglobin values closely, probably to be as close to the limit as possible, but absolutely not over. When Sorkmo was pulled it was a minor scandal.
In the early days of these FIS pre race testings they were very generous. If the reading was too high you were told to go drink some water and come back in an hour for a new test, and if it still was too high you got yet another chance. It is quite possible that Sorkmo's reading of 16.9 was from a third test, after lots of water drinking.
I used to dope when I went backcountry skiing all the time but I don't think it was performance enhancing
9000ft said:
I think WADA's alcohol limit is 1.0 g/L, which amounts to 3-4 pints of beer, if I'm not mistaken. Maurilio De Zolt never tested positive for alcohol, however, which in and by itself is scandalous...
TRENDING THREADS
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 29K
-
Teams & Riders The Great Big Cycling Transfers, Extensions, and Rumours Thread- Started by RedheadDane
- Replies: 11K
-
Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread- Started by LaFlorecita
- Replies: 51K
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives- Started by johnymax
- Replies: 19K
-
Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.- Started by Miburo
- Replies: 21K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram