Doping in XC skiing

[Kokoso]

It's not consistent, but there seemed to be a bit of non-natural peaking going on at the world champs. Especially from Czech Republic, the host nation, and some other minor nations. Moravec did well after the world, then lost a bit of form. Soukalova re-peaked this weekend.

Nonsense. Czechs did better wherever but not on the WC. Just look at the results and stop talking bull****. Who of them "peaked unnuturally"? Soukalova was actually worse than in rest of season, Vitkova had better results elsewhere, same goes for Moravec and Slesinger.

If you want to take a look at someone, I'd recommend you Svendsen. On the WC much better than throughout the rest of the season, than suddenly ill and now crap form.

 

[Kokoso]

This was Soukalová's first time on the podium since Pokljuka, when she podiumed every race. She was actually less impressive at Nové Město than for much of the season, surprisingly

She was ill before WC, unfortunatelly. Nothing surprising about that. At least it could dismiss doping talks cause I think she would love to peak at home WC.

 

[Cloxxki]

OK, for the Czechs is more about this season in general that worlds themselves.
Polish ladies, that's just weird. Finally on the Kowalczyk program?
Fak, yes, seemed to be a consistent fast skier, became top of the bunch fast, and now just fades like crazy.

I don't know what to think of Martin Fourcade. He's going to live in Norway even. Too hot under his feet in France, from an anti-dopage perspective, or is he just a tax refugee like other big earners? His skiing is so lively, really he has it super easy. Fast skis? Usually. See him get over the line and have a face like in a fancy diner jacket. Still fresh on his feet, skis usually off before the finish line. His good shooting, being French and all, we don't need to worry over.
I wonder, why did he not take the WC by storm at first, like Neuner did, and Tarjei Boe? So much performance gained in a few seasons... I think he's make Cologna and Northug look pedestrian over a 10km skate race in this form. Especially with rifles on their backs, they way he jump skates basically around the lap...

Dahlmeier is such a wonderful talent. Quick enough, but not overly so. More solid with the rifle than Henkel, twice her age. Especially in relays, even on her debut she was the star. She might become a bit like Tora Berger. Fast enough, and impossible to beat in a head-to-head shoot.

I don't know about Svendsen either. At least when he came back to racing he was slow. That sortof speaks for him. If he'd been 1 BB short and used the last one for Khanty, he'd be faster now.

Kowalczyk at worlds had one freak performance, the 5km relay, taking 38s out of Johaug. Otherwise she's quite stable all season. You have to wonder, of that's a prodcut of doping, what kind. Aicar etc? BB's take so much out of your training and you use up so many in an intense WC season... Bjoergen at least skips races and comes back invincible. That we can understand, BB all the way.

 

[Kokoso]

OK, for the Czechs is more about this season in general that worlds themselves.

And what means this? Are you suggesting doping? If so, why?

So you agree to talking BS about WC, good.

 

[Cloxxki]

And what means this? Are you suggesting doping? If so, why?

So you agree to talking BS about WC, good.

I am a bit surprised of their sudden ascend to the ranks. Perhaps the major nations have gone off the juice?
The Eurosport commentators keep on mentioning their tiny budgets, bit annoying.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And what means this? Are you suggesting doping? If so, why?

So you agree to talking BS about WC, good.

Careful you don't get too attached to the patriotism thing though. It is foolish to say that Vítková, Soukalová and Moravec at least have not all made big strides this season and have been far better than at any point before.

That doesn't mean doping. It just means they have made a noticeable improvement, for which doping is only one of several possible arguments. Convergence of good talents, Soukalová having had illnesses in 2011-12 meaning that she couldn't perform up to her real level making her improvement look more marked than others, the motivation of a home WC, the redevelopment of the Nové Město facilities meaning they now have a world class venue to prepare and train, changes in training style, staff and so forth are all other reasons you could point to.

To Cloxxki's list of competitors... you could argue that it is strange that Fourcade didn't take the WC by storm in the same way that Bø and Neuner did, but at the same time Fourcade took up biathlon comparatively late as opposed to them. Whereas they started off as biathletes at an age of around 10-11, he only took it up at 14-15 if I remember correctly, which could well explain why his impact has not been as immediate even though his talent was clear early on as he was picking up very good results but not consistently early on. And besides he's what, 24? Tora Berger didn't win a World Cup race until she was 27...

 

[Kokoso]

Careful you don't get too attached to the patriotism thing though. It is foolish to say that Vítková, Soukalová and Moravec at least have not all made big strides this season and have been far better than at any point before.

So you and Cloxxi simply say that to win a race or get better implies doping? Ah...that's crap IMO. Than we'd have to had no winners and no improving athletes not to talk about doping every time.
About Vítková you are wrong, she did better few years ago.

This I posted before and most of it is still quiet actual:
Moravec is going well from the start of season, it's nothing out of the blue. And for Soukalova -again you clearly don't know about what you are babbling. She was always talented, only you don't know her results. E.g. in Khanty Mansiysk world champs in 2010/2011 season she was 25th in sprint and 22th in pursuit. She's still very young (1.11.1989). Last season she had some health issues (mononucleosis amongst others), but this season she's going well from the beginning, fulfilling her promising talent. Only thing is that she lacks some preparation (due to mononucleosis mentioned above), so it would be no wonder if she gets tired soon or later.
Well... Look at the Slesinger. He's definitely worse than he used to be and he's been long time number one amongst Czech biathletes. And Soukup, who even reached for medal last year WC and had very good results (now is long time ill, shame for him and Czech relay). So not everybody improved. Soukalova and Moravec (multiple medailist in junior categories) had very good results in younger categories . For Moravec it took more time to adapt (or how to call it). Vitkova showed results like this in past. And in the past Slesinger and other biathletes won medals here and there.
I just think that Soukalova is great talent. Even I think she could be a star one day, cause she's strong mentally (unlike other Czechs). And she's quite pretty as well btw.

 

[workingclasshero]

I don't know what to think of Martin Fourcade. He's going to live in Norway even. Too hot under his feet in France, from an anti-dopage perspective, or is he just a tax refugee like other big earners?

#knowledge

I think he's make Cologna and Northug look pedestrian over a 10km skate race in this form. Especially with rifles on their backs, they way he jump skates basically around the lap...

don't be silly, he has attempted to race vs specialists, he's been nowhere even close, same for Svendsen

 

[Cloxxki]

#knowledge



don't be silly, he has attempted to race vs specialists, he's been nowhere even close, same for Svendsen

Well, Fourcade doesn't seem to be held up by lack of knowledge. He's quite an innovator.
And for trying XC, I've seen him do that only in the early season.

Fourcade seems more dominant on the skis than Goessner is with the women's field. She got a 4th at XC worlds I think? Let's call the top for XC women slackers shall we
Last season I seem to remember Svendsen making up serious time in a world cup relay team as closing leg, at one point it seemed he'd catch up to the #! NO team to get into a sprint with Northug. Unfortunately that didn't happen. The deficit starting his leg was too much.

 

[Silhouette]

Kowalczyk at worlds had one freak performance, the 5km relay, taking 38s out of Johaug.

Kowalczyk is normally quite a lot faster than Johaug over a short classic distance, Johaug doesn't have the top speed needed for such a race. In addition the skis and wax Johaug used that day didn't give enough grip according to her coach, you could clearly see that in the uphills.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So you and Cloxxi simply say that to win a race or get better implies doping? Ah...that's crap IMO. Than we'd have to had no winners and no improving athletes not to talk about doping every time.
About Vítková you are wrong, she did better few years ago.

This I posted before and most of it is still quiet actual:
Moravec is going well from the start of season, it's nothing out of the blue. And for Soukalova -again you clearly don't know about what you are babbling. She was always talented, only you don't know her results. E.g. in Khanty Mansiysk world champs in 2010/2011 season she was 25th in sprint and 22th in pursuit. She's still very young (1.11.1989). Last season she had some health issues (mononucleosis amongst others), but this season she's going well from the beginning, fulfilling her promising talent. Only thing is that she lacks some preparation (due to mononucleosis mentioned above), so it would be no wonder if she gets tired soon or later.
Well... Look at the Slesinger. He's definitely worse than he used to be and he's been long time number one amongst Czech biathletes. And Soukup, who even reached for medal last year WC and had very good results (now is long time ill, shame for him and Czech relay). So not everybody improved. Soukalova and Moravec (multiple medailist in junior categories) had very good results in younger categories . For Moravec it took more time to adapt (or how to call it). Vitkova showed results like this in past. And in the past Slesinger and other biathletes won medals here and there.
I just think that Soukalova is great talent. Even I think she could be a star one day, cause she's strong mentally (unlike other Czechs). And she's quite pretty as well btw.

But I never said it was doping.

I said that it was wrong not to say they have made big strides this season and imply like this is something that was expected by all. After all, I've seen suspicions of Gössner based on her improvement from last season, when health issues caused her to underperform last season and she was already an Olympic XC and World Biathlon medallist. Last time this was brought up, I mentioned that Soukalová had been nowhere on results sheets last season and asked why that was. You mentioned she had had health issues, and that assuaged most of my doubts.

But don't act like we're all complete idiots for not recognising that she was clearly a World Cup winner in the making based on a couple of impressive performances at the Worlds at Khanty. Dorothea Wierer won a bunch of Junior World Championships medals and put in similarly impressive, if not more impressive, performances at the 2011 World Championships, and hasn't improved to the same extent. Does that mean Soukalová must be doping? Of course it doesn't. But Wierer's been a constant on the World Cup circuit since then and hasn't really moved on, whereas health issues meant Soukalová dropped off the radar of many fans outside of the Czech Republic a bit.

I did not say that the Czechs were doping, and even proffered MANY potential explanations that did not include doping that could justify the reason results have improved. By contending my statement you're suggesting that you think that I was supporting the implication of Czech doping, when in fact I was refuting your comeback that the Czech performances had not improved. There are plenty of valid arguments that can be made against the assumption that the Czechs are doping, but the one you've chosen isn't really the best.

FWIW:
2011-12 Nation's Cup Men
6 Czech Republic 5813

2012-13 Nation's Cup Men
6 Czech Republic 6517

2011-12 Nation's Cup Women
13 Czech Republic 4249

2012-13 Nation's Cup Women
9 Czech Republic 6015

Number of Czech wins 2011-12: 0
Number of Czech wins 2012-13: 4

THIS IS NOT TO BE READ AS AN INDICATION OF DOPING.

However, it does quite clearly point out that the Czech results have improved, and so attacking people for pointing that out is not the best strategy. They may be in the same position in the nation's cup for the men, but the points scored has gone up by a clear margin. Amongst the women, however, their improvement has been clear and marked.

I know the Clinic is a mire of doping innuendo and conspiracy theorists, but this isn't the Sky thread, and just because something has been mentioned does not mean that doping is automatically assumed to be the reason. Many of us outside the Czech Republic are not necessarily aware of changes going on in Czech biathlon, as it's not so widely reported on as in the big biathlon nations like Norway, Germany and Russia. When I asked about Soukalová early in the season, I was asking out of ignorance, not incredulity. It looks like her rise was certainly a plausible one as she clearly showed talent early on, I just hadn't been aware of her potential/had forgotten about her due to her lost season last year.

Also, perhaps try not being so confrontational about it. Your country has produced a hell of a biathlon season with four wins and a number of other podiums, and are no longer seen as a "surprise package" when they pop up near the front of a relay. You have some useful looking youngsters, and that Soukalová and Moravec have taken over as the top names will help tide you over and keep you at the top, as opposed to relying too long on the same older athletes, which can leave you struggling when they retire (see Poland's men, or Sweden's women). It may be, in your words, "crap" to immediately insinuate doping. But it's also "crap" to belittle their progress this season by implying there hasn't been any.

 

[Cloxxki]

I don't know how much she supposedly lost, but Goessner just looks like a whole different lady, from (as memory serves me) a chubby silhouet (even by regional racing standards, let alone Olympic medallist level) to Johaug-light.
On such a tiny girl to lose, visually at least 6-7kg, that's going to bring a massive performance boost. Her last season's so-so skiing may be more suspect than this year's stellar performances if you look at it like that.
I am almost 10% over my ideal medin weight myself now, and I am just super slow, total different league to my preferred better self.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't know how much she supposedly lost, but Goessner just looks like a whole different lady, from (as memory serves me) a chubby silhouet (even by regional racing standards, let alone Olympic medallist level) to Johaug-light.
On such a tiny girl to lose, visually at least 6-7kg, that's going to bring a massive performance boost. Her last season's so-so skiing may be more suspect than this year's stellar performances if you look at it like that.
I am almost 10% over my ideal medin weight myself now, and I am just super slow, total different league to my preferred better self.

Summer 2011 she had emergency surgery to fix intestinal knotting, which played havoc with her season's preparation. She addressed the weight issue on Blickpunkt Sport a couple of months ago - she came in to the 2011-12 season some way above where she had been 2009-10 and 2010-11, so while she was at her lightest competition weight in the early season this year the figures for her weight loss (10kg was given in some press) looked more dramatic because of that. Towards the end of 2011-12 she started to produce some more representative results, but was still not the same competitor that she was the year before. The Gössner of 2010-11 would not have been 6th at Kontiolahti after shooting 10/10 with near enough everybody ahead missing targets.

Either way, 2011-12 looks like a probably outlier in her career path to date. The issue with her is more likely going to be staying healthy (because she has had a number of illnesses and injuries over her young career to date and her small, light frame in the conditions they compete in certainly could leave her susceptible) and overcoming her sometime psychological frailties.

 

[Kokoso]

But I never said it was doping.

I said that it was wrong not to say they have made big strides this season and imply like this is something that was expected by all. After all, I've seen suspicions of Gössner based on her improvement from last season, when health issues caused her to underperform last season and she was already an Olympic XC and World Biathlon medallist. Last time this was brought up, I mentioned that Soukalová had been nowhere on results sheets last season and asked why that was. You mentioned she had had health issues, and that assuaged most of my doubts.

But don't act like we're all complete idiots for not recognising that she was clearly a World Cup winner in the making based on a couple of impressive performances at the Worlds at Khanty. Dorothea Wierer won a bunch of Junior World Championships medals and put in similarly impressive, if not more impressive, performances at the 2011 World Championships, and hasn't improved to the same extent. Does that mean Soukalová must be doping? Of course it doesn't. But Wierer's been a constant on the World Cup circuit since then and hasn't really moved on, whereas health issues meant Soukalová dropped off the radar of many fans outside of the Czech Republic a bit.

I did not say that the Czechs were doping, and even proffered MANY potential explanations that did not include doping that could justify the reason results have improved. By contending my statement you're suggesting that you think that I was supporting the implication of Czech doping, when in fact I was refuting your comeback that the Czech performances had not improved. There are plenty of valid arguments that can be made against the assumption that the Czechs are doping, but the one you've chosen isn't really the best.

FWIW:
2011-12 Nation's Cup Men
6 Czech Republic 5813

2012-13 Nation's Cup Men
6 Czech Republic 6517

2011-12 Nation's Cup Women
13 Czech Republic 4249

2012-13 Nation's Cup Women
9 Czech Republic 6015

Number of Czech wins 2011-12: 0
Number of Czech wins 2012-13: 4

THIS IS NOT TO BE READ AS AN INDICATION OF DOPING.

However, it does quite clearly point out that the Czech results have improved, and so attacking people for pointing that out is not the best strategy. They may be in the same position in the nation's cup for the men, but the points scored has gone up by a clear margin. Amongst the women, however, their improvement has been clear and marked.

I know the Clinic is a mire of doping innuendo and conspiracy theorists, but this isn't the Sky thread, and just because something has been mentioned does not mean that doping is automatically assumed to be the reason. Many of us outside the Czech Republic are not necessarily aware of changes going on in Czech biathlon, as it's not so widely reported on as in the big biathlon nations like Norway, Germany and Russia. When I asked about Soukalová early in the season, I was asking out of ignorance, not incredulity. It looks like her rise was certainly a plausible one as she clearly showed talent early on, I just hadn't been aware of her potential/had forgotten about her due to her lost season last year.

Also, perhaps try not being so confrontational about it. Your country has produced a hell of a biathlon season with four wins and a number of other podiums, and are no longer seen as a "surprise package" when they pop up near the front of a relay. You have some useful looking youngsters, and that Soukalová and Moravec have taken over as the top names will help tide you over and keep you at the top, as opposed to relying too long on the same older athletes, which can leave you struggling when they retire (see Poland's men, or Sweden's women). It may be, in your words, "crap" to immediately insinuate doping. But it's also "crap" to belittle their progress this season by implying there hasn't been any.

And I've never said that you (or Cloxxi) state they're doping, but by this "" It just means they have made a noticeable improvement, for which doping is only one of several possible arguments." you clearly implied that. But just implied, nothing more. Also if you feel like an idiot for not recognizing etc. than you should know that's purely your feeling cause I didn'n mean anything like that.
Also I've never tried to say that Czech's haven't improved, only I tried to say that there are some who improved (clearly Moravec, Soukalová) and actually some who clearly got worse (Slesinger, Soukup). Stating that I imply Czechs haven't improve at all is pure nonsense.
Maybe you haven't realised that the improvement amogst nations in men is only due to Moravec improvement and in women due to Soukalova and Vitkova (second one had severe meningitis what slowed her career a lot). And about relay - amongst men they are "popping up" near the front of relay for years so I don't see why it should be such surprise.
Also Slesinger made in past years good number of podiums including WC medals, in 2010 - 2011 was 9th and 2011 - 2012 overall...so it itsn't like Czechs are out of the blue with this results amongst biathlon nations.

 

[Discgear]

This weekend the SKUP- conference is taking place on Quality Hotel in Tønsberg, Norway. SKUP is a Norwegian foundation for critical and investigating media. Yesterday Nils Hansson from Uppdrag Granskning had a seminar about Investigating Journalism. Mads Kaggestad reported in his Tweets that Nils Hansson said they had more on former Norwegian Skiers than what has been released. He also reported that Nils Hansson claimed that Uppdrag Granskning has documentation of high blood values on Bjørn Dælie that they haven’t published.
https://twitter.com/Mads_Kaggestad/status/313009368037736449
https://twitter.com/tomruneorset/status/312962462150434816

 

[Trond Vidar]

Loved Legkovs Northug-esque statement after winning the hard 50KM in Holmenkollen this weekend: "it wasn't hard at all, today was easy" met by laughter from the press

http://sport.aftenposten.no/sport/langrenn/article272719.ece

 

[python]

Loved Legkovs Northug-esque statement after winning the hard 50KM in Holmenkollen this weekend: "it wasn't hard at all, today was easy" met by laughter from the press

http://sport.aftenposten.no/sport/langrenn/article272719.ece

indeed interesting. perhaps he spoke his mind at the press-conference b/c he said virtually the same some hours later in front of the friendlier (countrymen) microphones.

Google translate

In the marathon I controlled everything. Saw that Northug hard that he left behind. I confess, "fifty" was given to me very easily. Arms and legs at the finish, of course, has reduced, but still the condition was, perhaps, the best of the season.

Trond, a question…as you know, he and cherno are the refugees from the national team and train year-round with the swiss reto burgermeister whose reputation is clean as far as i know. some say he insisted on the arrangement to escape the doping cloud always hovering over his countrymen…do you think this story is a cover to a more sophisticated doping programme (compared to the crude one back home he was on) ?

 

[Discgear]

This weekend the SKUP- conference is taking place on Quality Hotel in Tønsberg, Norway. SKUP is a Norwegian foundation for critical and investigating media. Yesterday Nils Hansson from Uppdrag Granskning had a seminar about Investigating Journalism. Mads Kaggestad reported in his Tweets that Nils Hansson said they had more on former Norwegian Skiers than what has been released. He also reported that Nils Hansson claimed that Uppdrag Granskning has documentation of high blood values on Bjørn Dælie that they haven’t published.
https://twitter.com/Mads_Kaggestad/status/313009368037736449
https://twitter.com/tomruneorset/status/312962462150434816

Some more Twitter comments from Kaggestad:

I got the impression that the journalists taking part in the sports debate at SKUP2013 showed sympathy with Hansson in Uppdrag Granskning.

Several of the debaters were critical to Ulseth and Saether, when accusing Uppdrag Granskning of bad journalism.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Johaug must have really secret stone grinding methods

 

[ophene]

Johaug must have really secret stone grinding methods

Well Kalla certainly had today, she seemed to have 2-3 minutes faster skies than the people around her.

 

[Discgear]

Loved Legkovs Northug-esque statement after winning the hard 50KM in Holmenkollen this weekend: "it wasn't hard at all, today was easy" met by laughter from the press

http://sport.aftenposten.no/sport/langrenn/article272719.ece

I guess you're hinting that something was suspect with Legkov's performance when winning in Holmenkollen. Why? Johaug today was by miles, much more impressive than Legkov yesterday.

Well Kalla certainly had today, she seemed to have 2-3 minutes faster skies than the people around her.

And was minutes behind.

 

[Trond Vidar]

I guess you're hinting that something was suspect with Legkov's performance when winning in Holmenkollen. Why? Johaug today was by miles, much more impressive than Legkov yesterday.

No no, I just liked the attitude. Usually it's only Northug that does the bragging. I just think he had a really good day.

 

[Trond Vidar]

Trond, a question…as you know, he and cherno are the refugees from the national team and train year-round with the swiss reto burgermeister whose reputation is clean as far as i know. some say he insisted on the arrangement to escape the doping cloud always hovering over his countrymen…do you think this story is a cover to a more sophisticated doping programme (compared to the crude one back home he was on) ?

Not sure to be honest. There is a lot of politics going on in the Russian team. If they have any kind of programme in Russia I would have thought it to be good considering them preparing for Sotsji.

 

[valkus]

Trond, a question…as you know, he and cherno are the refugees from the national team and train year-round with the swiss reto burgermeister whose reputation is clean as far as i know. some say he insisted on the arrangement to escape the doping cloud always hovering over his countrymen…do you think this story is a cover to a more sophisticated doping programme (compared to the crude one back home he was on) ?

I started really worrying about Legkov after his Holmenkolen performance. He was never strong in a finish battle, but yesterday it was a northug style.

Training most of the year in Switzerland gives Legkov very good access to cycling doctors like Testa and Reto can make a very good connection between them. I would really like to be wrong, but guilty until proven.

I used to meet Legkov once every two years in La Clusas where he is traditionally strong. I don't know if next year there will be a WC there, I need to speak to him before I can be sure of anything.

 

[maltiv]

I started really worrying about Legkov after his Holmenkolen performance. He was never strong in a finish battle, but yesterday it was a northug style.

No surprise that he's the strongest after a long race with so many hills. He just had more energy left than the others.